.38/.357 Carry Loads

Question #2 - No.

Question #3 - That depends on what you call an advantage. If ballistic performance is you goal then indeed a 357 Magnum, even from a 3" barrel, will deliver considerably more velocity and potential for expansion of HP ammo than any +P 38 Special. If speed and control of follow-up shots is important then the +P 38 Special will have an advantage. You have to decide which is higher on your priority list.

Dave

Mr. Mosin said:

What WILL expand reliably out of a snub .38 ? The Treasury Load ? 110 grn +P+ JHP ?

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https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/revolver-ballistics-test/

That should help you find a good load.

There are many load available that will penetrate and expand great out of a .38 snub. The best information and testing results I've found is on the luckygunner.com web site. Click on "lab" and find the .38/.357 testing done with 2" and 4" barrels. It is pretty eye opening. You can see comparisons of some of the "newer" SD loads designed for short barrels as well as some of the old stand bys such as the LSWCHP. After reading the test, I did some very unscientific testing of my own using jugs of water. Not as scientific as the ballistic gel, but it is an easily obtainable testing product that is cheap and gives a pretty good way to at least compare different bullets. I decided to use the Golden Saber +P for my carry in my 2 and 3" revolvers. The real funny thing, is the Golden Saber bullets are available as components for loading in .38 and .357 designs. I'm not sure why, but I could duplicate the velocity of the factory round, but never was able to get quite the performance as the factory loading. Close, but not quite as good. Great thing about the Golden Saber is they are available very cheap compared to some of the other short barrel SD bullets. I bought some 50 round boxes for less than $20 a box at Target Sports and that will last me a lifetime.

I thought the Treasury load was 158 gr LSWCHP+P?

John Joseph said:

I thought the Treasury load was 158 gr LSWCHP+P?

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That's the FBI load, the treasury load was a screaming hot 110gr bullet.

Granted this is not a .358 bullet it is cast from the same lead as I cast all my bullets from. This is a .430 LSWC shot at low magnum levels from 7’ish yards. This bullet was recovered from a pine tree. There is deformation but no real expansion. My suggestion is to carry what ever you shoot well. This will take a lot of different ammo. I like the traditional weights for caliber because I can control them. A 125gr .357 or 180gr .44mag over a max charge of H110 are fun to shoot at the range but I can’t shoot them accurately. To your third question, the Federal Micro HST’s in .38spl had some impressive results in the LuckyGunner tests.

I carry nothing but the .38 Special 158gr. LSWC-HP "FBI" load in all of my .38s and. 357s.

If I don't think that's going to be adequate, I step up to 200gr. JHPs out of an M1911 or S&W M25-2.

Your ability to put shots exactly where you want them with your chosen gun is going to dictate your success in a defensive shooting scenario. Pick the load that lets you do that, even if it is boring. I am very fond of 125 grn .38 +P Golden Sabers out of my S&W Model 66-3.

my airweight 38 snubbies only get wadcutters for both practice and ccw because i can consistently hit my target with this soft recoil round. for me expanding rounds don’t work with consistent misses.

With a sp101, i would try the remington golden saber 125 grain 357. If I'm not mistaken, their ultimate defense loading is similar, if not just rebranded

It is a milder 357, but with higher velocity/energy than the 38+, and more reliable expansion and penetration. And at least in my experience, it has been shootable and accurate in a s&w 360, s&w mod 60, and sp101.

In fact, I have better accuracy with it in in 357 chamberings than 38+.

But shoot it before you decide.

Mr. Mosin said:

What WILL expand reliably out of a snub .38 ? The Treasury Load ? 110 grn +P+ JHP ?

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Take a look at Federal HST micro 38spl+P 130 grain shot from a 2" barrel on Luckygunner. It's designed for short barrels. Expansion .73 (every one expanded well), good penetration(@13")

I don't care HP ammo in my .38, yes there are good loads out there I am not denying that, but those loads do not shoot POA for me. Know what does? The old 158 gr SWC (non HP) I have successfully defended my self from a feral dog (yes a canid, didn't mistake for a pig) and saw the results up close. Purely anecdotal to me but I like to see real world vs gel or other test "media". I believe that hunting biological targets and actual documented shooting determine true bullet effectiveness. In a .357 mag even a snub carry actual .357s someone mentioned the Remington Golden Saber ammo. That was one of my top choices when I carried a .357 for CC. You have alot more leeway in the magnum caliber vs the .38 but the .38 can still get the job done. Focus on what hits for you the best then worry about expansion and penetration. I'd recommend trying out some hunting with your chosen gun even if it's squirrel and see how that works out for you.

While conventional made lead ammo can function in a short barrel revolver...the short barrel does not let you harness its total capabilities. That's where ARX ammo steps up. It is an ammo that was designed with short barrels in mind. It utilizes hydraulic cavitation in lieu of expansion giving the same net results. The bullets are lighter grain and leave the barrel at higher velocity.

Remington Golden Saber 125gr +p is a very adequate snub nose round.

Mr. Mosin said:

2. Will the traditional 158 grn LSWC reliably expand out of a snub nose barrel (IE, S&W 442) ?

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That depends on who loaded it. Me or the factory. My 158gr LSWCHP loads are getting over 900fps from a Taurus snubby and seem to expand in 2 liter bottles of water. The problem is I can't seem to catch one to look at it. It it does tear up the jugs and an impressive way. And the lead bullet used makes a difference too. Remington and Speer lead hollow points are known to expand. IIRC the lead bullets Federal used didn't work as well. I think Winchesters were known to expand.

I pre-stress mine using the Phillips screw driver trick.

Mr. Mosin said:

Three things....

1. I am enjoying mining the veritable gold mine of knowledge that is The High Road.

2. Will the traditional 158 grn LSWC reliably expand out of a snub nose barrel (IE, S&W 442) ?

3. .357 Magnum having gained its reputation from service revolvers with 4-6” barrels, is there any advantage of .357 Magnum over +P .38 Spl in a three inch barreled revolver (IE Ruger SP101) ?

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From what I have saw and read ... The Remington 38Spl +P 158gr LSWCHP will expand out of a two barrel.. in ballastic gel with 4 layers of denim ..

357mag tops 38spl .. But with more fuss ..

I tried ARX and think it interesting technology. However, the downside is that the significantly lighter and faster projectile has a lower poi than typical range and defensive ammo, unless you work up handloads with special-order light-for-caliber bullets.

I guess the difference may be negligible shooting a snubby at short range. But I noticed at 10 yards.

WheelGunMan said:

While conventional made lead ammo can function in a short barrel revolver...the short barrel does not let you harness its total capabilities. That's where ARX ammo steps up. It is an ammo that was designed with short barrels in mind. It utilizes hydraulic cavitation in lieu of expansion giving the same net results. The bullets are lighter grain and leave the barrel at higher velocity.

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View attachment 852988 One of my favorites Federal HS 147gr +P+

SeanSw said:

Remington Golden Saber 125gr +p is a very adequate snub nose round.

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I just bought 500 of these.

I carry 3 different loads in my 38/357 revolvers but not for velocity of even expansion but because they are highly accurate for me in my guns.

I carry the Speer Short Barrel 135gr .38 Special +P ammo, the 158gr LSWC/HP .38 Special +P FBI Load and the 145gr Winchester .357 Magnum ammo at different times and revolvers.

IMO way too much is made of the FBI protocol and it has helped create an obsession with expansion and velocity. Accuracy is paramount since the fastest ammo and newest bullets will do you no good unless you make good hits.

Same thing goes for semi-autos, find the ammo which proves to be 100% reliable 100% of the times and is most accurate in your pistol. The rest will take care of itself.

I don't like recoil! I can flinch, even shooting my .22 rimfire rifles, and I know they don't kick, so I have to make adjustments. Lucky Gunner is a good source of information.
My personal carry ammo is one of three:
The Remington .38 Spl. +p 158 SWCHP round, which, despite being "old technology" still works! A bit hard to find, but available and reasonable cost.
Speer 135 Gr. .38 +P SB load, which will expand at ~ 860 fps, per Speer data. A Speer tech told me I could expect"about 920 fps" from my 4" barrel.
Remington .38 +P Golden Saber 125 gr. JHP. (Not the new Black Belt, or whatever they call it now.)
I recently bought a couple of boxes of the Speer Short Barrel 135 gr 357 Magnum load "Just to see". I was surprised! The 357 load doesn't recoil much more than my old reliable IPSC load...158 gr. non HP cast SWC @ 860 fps. But, based on my experience, I'll buy more. You can't find 50 round boxes easily..fact is, I don't know if Speer even offers 50 round boxes in its 357 load. And it is more expen$ive!
For practice, I load cast/plated/jacketed bullets of 125-160 gr. weight to a similar recoil feel, and call it good.

The Federal 130 gr. HST round is very interesting, too. Worth investigating.

ArchAngelCD said:

I carry 3 different loads in my 38/357 revolvers but not for velocity of even expansion but because they are highly accurate for me in my guns.

I carry the Speer Short Barrel 135gr .38 Special +P ammo, the 158gr LSWC/HP .38 Special +P FBI Load and the 145gr Winchester .357 Magnum ammo at different times and revolvers.

IMO way too much is made of the FBI protocol and it has helped create an obsession with expansion and velocity. Accuracy is paramount since the fastest ammo and newest bullets will do you no good unless you make good hits.

Same thing goes for semi-autos, find the ammo which proves to be 100% reliable 100% of the times and is most accurate in your pistol. The rest will take care of itself.

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Not sure I have ever heard a better answer than you just stated. I've always said you should shoot whatever is the most accurate for you. A hit with a .22 is way more effective than a miss with a 44 magnum. At one time and I'm guessing it still may be true that more people are killed every year with a .22 than any other round. ArchAngelCD, you hit the nail on the head.