brothers 22lr not penetrating old 1950 school bus side? wow strong steel

No big surprise. Try shooting at old train cars.

One day while doing a survey, my crew and I came across a 40s era car that had a few bullet holes in it. What was impressive were the shots that didn't penetrate. Then there was the dinner plate size dent where someone had taken a shot at it with a shotgun. Those of us who knew about guns marveled at the damage that car had absorbed. A modern car would have disintegrated. A lot more steel went into cars back in the day.

There is a reason why the .38/44, .38 Super and .357 Mag came into existence.

mokin

A modern car would have disintegrated. A lot more steel went into cars back in the day.

Click to expand...

And not just the body and engine but bumpers and wheels were made out of steel too. I remember my Dad told me that it could take two men and a boy sometimes to change out a tire on most cars from the '30s and '40s.

I hope you let the kids out first

mokin said:

One day while doing a survey, my crew and I came across a 40s era car that had a few bullet holes in it. What was impressive were the shots that didn't penetrate. Then there was the dinner plate size dent where someone had taken a shot at it with a shotgun. Those of us who knew about guns marveled at the damage that car had absorbed. A modern car would have disintegrated. A lot more steel went into cars back in the day.

Click to expand...

One of the reasons Frank Hammer stayed away from the Thompson sub machine gun and went with the Bars & Monitors for the Bonnie and Clyde ambush. The old cars were pretty bullet proof. If you look at the side of the Bonnie & Clyde ambush car that was on the other side of the shooters even those powerful rounds did not go through and just left dimples.

Yeah, even as late as the ‘60’s if you put a dent in a tail gate backing into a trailer, you had to heat it with a torch to be able to pull the dent.

Thanks to more soccer moms buying trucks than people working out of them, now they cost more than many luxury cars and you can dent the tailgate by sitting on them...but you can’t break a finger nail opening one and using the built in step to climb into the bed, that’s only that high because it looks cooler than one of appropriate height to load and unload cargo, to be hauled. Which is what trucks used to be designed to do.

Back in highschool, me and my buddies acquired a late 60's Plymouth Fury for the big block motor.

After we got the motor out, we proceeded to shoot the snot out of it with various firearms.

The doors were about 10" thick and the only round that went completely through the door was .223. .357 put a dent in the inside door panel but didn't go all the way through.

It laughed at 9mm, .22, and 20 gauge and 12 gauge.

We were amazed.

jmorris said:

Yeah, even as late as the ‘60’s if you put a dent in a tail gate backing into a trailer, you had to heat it with a torch to be able to pull the dent.

Thanks to more soccer moms buying trucks than people working out of them, now they cost more than many luxury cars and you can dent the tailgate by sitting on them...but you can’t break a finger nail opening one and using the built in step to climb into the bed, that’s only that high because it looks cooler than one of appropriate height to load and unload cargo, to be hauled. Which is what trucks used to be designed to do.

Click to expand...

I get what you're saying in a sense, but at the same time my truck (a 4th gen SRW Ram with a Cummins) will haul and tow circles around any older truck, including most duallys, without even breaking a sweat. I'm okay trading a little thinner sheet metal and a taller ride height in return. The cost...yeah they're expensive but at least we're getting substantially better performance and safety than we did back in the day. Except for shootouts, anyway.

There are huge improvements in power, efficiency and safety with modern vehicles. The only thing that took a huge hit is longevity. Lots of model T’s and A’s out there still running and many more ‘40’s, ‘50’s and ‘60’s still going. I still use ‘40’s and ‘50’s tractors on our farm.

All the electronics are the week link with modern stuff. The ‘80’s cars are not a lost cause because you can get stand alone computers that will run the engine and everything else doesn’t require much, because it’s just a matter of wires and switches at that point. These days with everything running on a network of control modules all containing lots of more sensitive electronics that rapidly become unsupported/obsolete. It’s much harder to keep them going for decades. Read some reviews on the 2019 Ram trucks that are plagued with electronics issues right out of the gate.

In a way it makes sense to make them less robust, follows the planned obsolescence model.

indy1919a4 said:

One of the reasons Frank Hammer stayed away from the Thompson sub machine gun and went with the Bars & Monitors for the Bonnie and Clyde ambush. The old cars were pretty bullet proof. If you look at the side of the Bonnie & Clyde ambush car that was on the other side of the shooters even those powerful rounds did not go through and just left dimples.

Click to expand...

Wasn't there a picture of that car in a recent issue of The Blue Press?

My uncle has some interesting old scrap in his woods. 1950s autos (all the serviceable parts are gone, most are crinkled up from old races, wrecks and derbys so not wrecking any classic car parts). What will penetrate a door or rocker panel...7.62 Tok FMJ, 9mm 124 NATO Swiss RUAG fmj, .357 Mag 158 Armscor FMJ, .41 Mag Rem 210JSP. What will not penetrate, most HPs and lesser pistol rounds.

Also played with some more interesting rounds on harder parts of the vehicles. Engine block...No significant penetration: High powered .30 cal rifle soft points, M2 and M80 ball, although somewhere along the line the M2 or M80 did crack the housing. What did penetrate: 7.62x54R Romanian and Hungarian light ball steel core, Hungarian heavy ball steel core, .30 M2AP, 7.62 handload API (US mfg), 7.92mm WWII Hartkern, 7.92 Romanian Steel core, Swiss GP-11, .

It's interesting when you look at some of the vintage ammo at gunshows from the 1920s through 1940's. Winchester, Rem/UMC and others offered FMJ ammunition in popular calibers such as .25-35, .30-30, .25 Rem and .300 Savage with heavy CU/NI jackets, and some with plated steel jackets. I believe some of these options were also available in .357 Mag and .38 Super.

jmorris said:

Yeah, even as late as the ‘60’s if you put a dent in a tail gate backing into a trailer, you had to heat it with a torch to be able to pull the dent.

Thanks to more soccer moms buying trucks than people working out of them, now they cost more than many luxury cars and you can dent the tailgate by sitting on them...but you can’t break a finger nail opening one and using the built in step to climb into the bed, that’s only that high because it looks cooler than one of appropriate height to load and unload cargo, to be hauled. Which is what trucks used to be designed to do.

Click to expand...

The thin steel has way more to do with EPA fuel economy ratings than soccer moms. I agree about the height though, that's purely for the suburbanites that want to park their "off-road" trucks in their lawn and not get stuck.

The thin steel has way more to do with EPA fuel economy ratings than soccer moms.

Click to expand...

If that were the case they would make everything except the bed and tailgate from beer cans and make the hauling part bullet proof. While you are driving around look at trucks that are worked out of and notice the plastic parts of the tail gate missing.

FWIW you might be surprised to learn despite being make out of thinner metal new cars actually weigh more that there older models.

A new Dodge Challenger is over 4,400 lbs a 1970 one is just over 3,800.

indy1919a4 said:

One of the reasons Frank Hammer stayed away from the Thompson sub machine gun and went with the Bars & Monitors for the Bonnie and Clyde ambush. The old cars were pretty bullet proof. If you look at the side of the Bonnie & Clyde ambush car that was on the other side of the shooters even those powerful rounds did not go through and just left dimples.

Click to expand...

Do a little reading and you will find the Clyde and Bonnie had already been shot at by Smoot Schmid and Ted Hinton with a couple of Thompsons way before Frank Hamer came on the scene. The 45acp bullets bounced of the car B&C were driving and only a couple of bullets went through the glass windows. Clyde picked the BAR way before Ted Hinton did. Frank Hamer used a Remington model 8 in 35 Remington in the shooting (murder) of B&C.

After the failure of the rounds from the Thompson to penetrate the car that B&C were driving they referred to it as the "Tinny" Thompson and didn't want anything else to do with them. Those old cars and trucks were tough.

Ratshooter said:

Do a little reading and you will find the Clyde and Bonnie had already been shot at by Smoot Schmid and Ted Hinton with a couple of Thompsons way before Frank Hamer came on the scene. The 45acp bullets bounced of the car B&C were driving and only a couple of bullets went through the glass windows. Clyde picked the BAR way before Ted Hinton did. Frank Hamer used a Remington model 8 in 35 Remington in the shooting (murder) of B&C.

After the failure of the rounds from the Thompson to penetrate the car that B&C were driving they referred to it as the "Tinny" Thompson and didn't want anything else to do with them. Those old cars and trucks were tough.

Click to expand...

Like so much in history many of the details are blurred and hard to pin down.. Trying to nail down the guns used is a near cottage industry.. Always fun.. If you reference the Hilton book... Do bear in mind that his book came out 2 years after he died...

indy1919a4 said:

Like so much in history many of the details are blurred and hard to pin down.. Trying to nail down the guns used is a near cottage industry.. Always fun.. If you reference the Hilton book... Do bear in mind that his book came out 2 years after he died...

Click to expand...

Actually its Hinton and not Hilton. One of the typo thingys I am guessing. And I have Ted Hintons book and have read it several times. No doubt that Hamer used a model 8 with a special 20 round mag. There are several of Barrows guns in the Texas Ranger museum in Waco. I have been there and seen them. They had more Barrow guns in the House of Wax in Grand Prairie before it burned and the guns disappeared.

But you are correct. A lot of the history is blurred. The story of Clyde and Bonnie would have mostly been forgotten if it wasn't for the 1967 movie.

The book may have came out after he died but he dictated it before he died. He did not want the fact that they kidnapped Ivy Methvin to trap B&C to come out until everyone involved had died. Ivy agreed to keep quiet about it to keep his son out of the electric chair. If you are interested in more B&C stuff you can spend hours reading here.

http://texashideout.tripod.com/bc.htm

Ratshooter said:

. No doubt that Hamer used a model 8 with a special 20 round mag. There are several of Barrows guns in the Texas Ranger museum in Waco. I have been there and seen them. They had more Barrow guns in the House of Wax in Grand Prairie before it burned and the guns disappeared.

Click to expand...

There is some doubt, the model 8 that is in the Texas Ranger museum in Waco could not have been made at the time of the Ambush, problems with the tracking comes from the fact that Frank Hamer never talked about the ambush and family members filled in the pieces after his death.. And lets be honest, it was not important at the time. All that mattered was the outlaws were stopped.. Only in later times did people care what types of guns were used..

Nice little Youtube to show the confusion



By the way that was a Damn fine website you linked to... Lots of good photos

There is a couple of fun Bonnie & Clyde sites you can visit also.. Like the bank that the barrow boys "robbed" in the movie,, It still stands in Pilot Point TX near Dallas.. Always fun to visit movie sites

http://www.movie-locations.com/movies/b/Bonnie-And-Clyde.php

There is a letter in the Dearborn Museum from Clyde Barrow extolling the bullet resistant qualities of Ford over other brands...

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

well I was wrong letter is there but is about liability and power of the V8 series of the time and no mention of bullet resistance

Google first THEN post

-kBob

I knew the real model 8 supposedly used by Hamer has disappeared but thats what he supposed to of used. Who knows. In the start of the movie the scene where Clyde is telling Bonnie he cut off two toes is on the Square in Venus Tx about 14 miles from me. The town still looks pretty much as it did in the movie and I guess way back in the 1930's. About a year ago I went by Henry Barrows gas station on Singleton Blvd over in west Dallas. It has changed on the roof line and has a small addition on it. Its abandoned and really run down now.

If you get a chance go to the website I linked to and read the Playboy interview with WD Jones and what it was really like to run with Clyde. It was not a fun time.

Thanks for links and YT video.

Ratshooter said:

I knew the real model 8 supposedly used by Hamer has disappeared but thats what he supposed to of used. Who knows. In the start of the movie the scene where Clyde is telling Bonnie he cut off two toes is on the Square in Venus Tx about 14 miles from me. The town still looks pretty much as it did in the movie and I guess way back in the 1930's. About a year ago I went by Henry Barrows gas station on Singleton Blvd over in west Dallas. It has changed on the roof line and has a small addition on it. Its abandoned and really run down now.

If you get a chance go to the website I linked to and read the Playboy interview with WD Jones and what it was really like to run with Clyde. It was not a fun time.

Thanks for links and YT video.

Click to expand...

Working my way through that link.. there is way to much good info for a quick glance and I will put that article on the top of the list... Moocho thanks for the heads up... Plus do not forget that Blanche Barrow left us with a bio of her life with B&C... Now its really badly written and hard to get through.. But you are not reading it for enjoyment but background..

A couple of reenactments of the ambush

The 1st is close to the date it was done, accurate well.. It is what it is.. but you can see the brush & tree line.
I have always found this frustrating because here you are in the day, The details are fresh in every ones mind, How about some striving for 100% accuracy.



The second is much later and shows how close it was for the shooters.. I like seeing it through the shooters eye.. Again how accurate??? Heck they had heart. Also nice to see the influence the "stalled" car had on the shoot.



Its real nice to compare tree & bush lines.. But, to be honest considering the impromptu way the 1st one was set up this may not even be the original site and just somewhere near by.

By the way I also went by the Barrow gas station.. One has to love Texas for the way they do keep alot of their older buildings a long time.. I did thunk and thunked about buying it and moving to TX... And where as I love Texas, did not think living in the Dallas/FW area would be what I wanted...

Since we are talking about bullet penetration did you notice in the top video in the still picture you can see two outward dimples on the front door post that are most likely a couple of bullet dents from bullets that didn't make it all the way through the car. There were possibly a few spent bullets laying on the ground after the shooting. And I have heard that the area was picked clean by souvenir hunters looking for spent brass. You wouldn't see a crime scene picked over like that today.

indy1919a4 said:

The second is much later and shows how close it was for the shooters..

Click to expand...

Yes the shots were really close. B&C never knew what hit them. I doubt they ever saw the shooters. Unlike the latest make believe movie with Woody Harrleson and Keven Costner no lawman stepped in front of the car and faced down Clyde Barrow. They did their shooting from cover. I have read that the Louisiana deputy named Prentiss Oakley was credited with firing the first shot that killed Clyde.

Ratshooter said:

There were possibly a few spent bullets laying on the ground after the shooting. And I have heard that the area was picked clean by souvenir hunters looking for spent brass. You wouldn't see a crime scene picked over like that today.

Click to expand...

People are the same today as they are then.. If the crime was infamous enough the souvenir hunters will come..
True the police are more professional and interested in protecting crime scenes.. But even the police over look things I.E like the Chapman record Album which was autographed by John Lennon that was left behind at the Lennon assassination.