Browning Hi-Power has gone out of production...The passing of a firearms Icon

Status
Not open for further replies.
dogtown tom said:
I don't blame them. And FN made several attempts to "update" the Hi Power.......none were a success. The BDA, BDAO, BDM were sad attempts to make a "better" Hi Power.

It may not be "legacy" buyers, but legacy designers.
Click to expand...

Depending who's opinion and standard you decide to abide by, the BDA and such were different guns and not really Hi Powers. Call it what you like, they weren't successful. But I think you'll find the driving force for these failed concepts was much more FN catering to contract customer requirements (police and military) and not so much a failure of their designers (Deodonne Saive was busy designing the FAL which has had some "modest" success out there).

The BHP pretty much sucks until you do ditch the mag disconnect and do substantial trigger tuning to it. The knowledge and ability to resolve these problems has been well known for as long as the gun has been out there. So it's not a deficiency in design. Once cleaned up, they are a wonderful gun.

When it comes to big dollar decisions about tooling up for new or modified product lines, I suspect you'll find that the engineers and designers are outranked by the business and marketing weenies. And I think you'll find historically that FN targeted contract runs for military and police customers.... which they were very, very successful at until the poly framed revolution greatly reduced the price points (note that gub'ment bean counters prioritize cheaper over better).

As for whether or not steel framed SAO pistols are "obsolete" or not, I personally prefer them and the survival of the BHP product line for 85+ years, and the continued survival (thriving?) of the 1911 product line for 110+ years suggests that quite a few others do as well.

To each there own.... I'm happy to compare targets with the plastic fantastic lovers any day.
 
Spats McGee said:
Beautiful collection, @WVsig
Click to expand...

My first BHP was a 1972 C Series. It is gun at 7 o'clock. I bought it off of Guns America sight unseen for $425. It had the old half moon sights and tiny safety. I felt great in the hand but everything else about it was sort of awkward. I was used to much bigger sights and 1911 style safeties which had large shelves and would "click" when engaged and disengaged. I almost sold it. I posted a thread back on The Firing Line and my friend WildAlaska AKA Ken said send it to me. I will have Jim West fix it for you and if you still don't like it we will buy it from you for what you put into it. The installed Novak night sights, C&S hammer, trigger & sear. They popped a C&S thumb safety on it and adjusted it to have a positive click. The trigger was set at 4.5lbs with a consistent clean break. All these years later I still have that gun. It started me down the rabbit hole of the Browning Hi Power and of custom guns.

I now own 12 BHPs. I have bought a sold at least another 6-8 over the years. I have some that are stock and some that are customized. I own 2 Custom Alloy BHPs made for me by Don Williams. I have a Garthawite MKIII, a T series with a beavertail by Bob Cogan and finally the absolute pinnacle of BHPs a Ted Yost Signature Custom minus the beavertail. That it the best of the breed. I love them all but that gun is a functional piece of art. Still I like shooting that old 1972 C series. It is one that I will never sell. They might have to bury it with me.

I agree 100% with what @SSN Vet said about BHP triggers and ergonomics. Too many people expect them to be something that they aren't. A BHP trigger is never going to be a 1911 trigger. It is not going to be a reliable 2lb on and off switch. It can be made into a very clean, consistent reliable very shootable trigger. Unfortunately they don't come that way stock. They can however be fixed by someone who knows what they are doing. When I was working with Mr. Yost on my BHP we were talking about how to customize it. What it needed and what it didn't need. I am paraphrasing but he basically said. "All a Browning Hi Power needs to be a great gun is a good trigger, a good set of sights and a good thumb safety. Everything else we do to them is to make them pretty and we do it not for function but because we want to." I agree with that 100%. My first BHP is not the prettiest but its got good sights, a good trigger and a good thumb safety and if I am being honest it is still pretty pretty pretty good looking.

6wCOpXG.jpg

HmslfEQ.jpg
 
dogtown tom said:
I don't blame them. And FN made several attempts to "update" the Hi Power.......none were a success.
The BDA, BDAO, BDM were sad attempts to make a "better" Hi Power.

They are in good company though, Colt still hasn't produced a double action, polymer frame or striker fire semi auto handgun that works. It may not be "legacy" buyers, but legacy designers.
Click to expand...

As far as I'm concerned a better BHP exists in the Wilson EDC X9. Good ergonomics, great trigger. Pricey, sure.

Following up next year or maybe this year is the Dan Wesson DWX. Much closer in price, but with good ergonomics and almost certainly a fantastic trigger.
 
Another small point is to note that in many, many ways, the "refinements" to the BHP were made... just not by FN.

Tear down a BHP next to a Sig 226 and you'll see what I'm talking about.

The true legacy of the BHP is the double stack single feed 9mm mag and the cam lug on the bottom of the barrel used to disconnect the locked breach mechanism.

As for evidence of this claim, just name one successful (or not) high capacity handgun that doesn't copy these to design revolutions almost verbatim?
 
If I owned a firearm manufacturing company that made Hi-Power pistols, my product have the Mag safety removed, improved trigger, better dual manual safeties, biteless hammer and etc as stock and available at reasonable cost.

And last but not least, offered in multiple calibers...
 
I think FN likes heavy trigger pulls. The FN FAL also has a horrible trigger pull.
 
dogtown tom said:
There were only three FN factory calibers for the Hi Power:
1. 9mmP/9mmLuger/9x19
2. 7.65x21/.30 Luger/7.65Parabellum
3. .40S&W

.41AE was not a factory bbl.
Click to expand...
I thought I put a ? next to the .41AE... However there were After Market .41 AE upgrade kits for this design. And .22 LR as well.
 
whm1974 said:
If I owned a firearm manufacturing company that made Hi-Power pistols, my product have the Mag safety removed, improved trigger, better dual manual safeties, biteless hammer and etc as stock and available at reasonable cost.
And last but not least, offered in multiple calibers...
Click to expand...

Sig agrees with you ;)

Well... accept for the reasonable cost part :rofl:
 
Ive owned a bunch of them over the years too. Browning, Inglis, FM, etc.

These days, I have the one above I just picked up, and a MKIII Ive had since the 90's. Sold the rest off decades ago.

Ive always wondered what people were bitching about as far as the factory triggers go, as I never thought that there was anything wrong with them, and I never had any troubles shooting them well.

Then again, Ive never been trigger phobic, and that goes for everything, not just HP's. I dont mind factory triggers and prefer not to get sucked into only being able to shoot tuned/custom triggers. I dont have any problem shooting my buddies guns who insist on them, but they do seem to whine a lot when they shoot some of my guns. :)

I never really liked the mag safety, but that wasnt because of the trigger. I just never liked mag safeties and not being able to shoot the gun without a mag in it.
 
SSN Vet said:
Sig agrees with you ;)

Well... accept for the reasonable cost part :rofl:
Click to expand...
Thats the main reason I switched for SIG to Glock. As much as I like/liked my SIG's, I just get more for my money with Glock.
 
AK103K said:
Ive owned a bunch of them over the years too. Browning, Inglis, FM, etc.

These days, I have the one above I just picked up, and a MKIII Ive had since the 90's. Sold the rest off decades ago.

Ive always wondered what people were bitching about as far as the factory triggers go, as I never thought that there was anything wrong with them, and I never had any troubles shooting them well.

Then again, Ive never been trigger phobic, and that goes for everything, not just HP's. I dont mind factory triggers and prefer not to get sucked into only being able to shoot tuned/custom triggers. I dont have any problem shooting my buddies guns who insist on them, but they do seem to whine a lot when they shoot some of my guns. :)

I never really liked the mag safety, but that wasnt because of the trigger. I just never liked mag safeties and not being able to shoot the gun without a mag in it.
Click to expand...

The trigger is certainly serviceable and can be very accurate, but compared to modern contemporaries it's heavy, with or without the mag safety, has slop in the take up and over travel and no discernable reset. Especially considering it is a SAO.

Usable, yep. Accurate, can be. Shoot well, sure. But it's not great considering the price point of new hi powers. Now, grabbing a surplus one and getting it refinished and slicked up, good deal.

Mag safety mostly annoyed me on empty reloads, didn't like having to strip my mag out and removed mine pretty much just for the drop free. Reducing the trigger pull to a decent 6lb over the 8+ was a nice bonus.
 
JR24 said:
As far as I'm concerned a better BHP exists in the Wilson EDC X9. Good ergonomics, great trigger. Pricey, sure.

Following up next year or maybe this year is the Dan Wesson DWX. Much closer in price, but with good ergonomics and almost certainly a fantastic trigger.
Click to expand...

I own a Wilson EDC X9 and it is like a Sig P228 and a 1911 had sex and produced a BHP like pistol. It is fat in the grip compared to the BHP. It has a Sig like high bore axis. It points well and is reliable but for me simply does not point the same way a BHP does. I carried the EDC X9 for 6 +/- months and went back to the Alloy BHP. YMMV
 
WVsig said:
I own a Wilson EDC X9 and it is like a Sig P228 and a 1911 had sex and produced a BHP like pistol. It is fat in the grip compared to the BHP. It has a Sig like high bore axis. It points well and is reliable but for me simply does not point the same way a BHP does. I carried the EDC X9 for 6 +/- months and went back to the Alloy BHP. YMMV
Click to expand...

See I feel the opposite (funny how we are all different!), I do agree the X9 feels Sig like, but it doesn't feel fatter to me in the grip and both points and recovers faster in my hands over the BHP.

Just had them out side by side last range trip in fact.

Edit:. Just for fun since I was by the safe anyway I grabbed my calipers. With VZ Slim grips the BHP is indeed slightly less wide, by 0.08" in the middle of the grip, probably the same or wider with the basic plastic or my wood grips.

BUT

It is shorter front to back (muzzle to hammer) by about 0.2" and the trigger reach from the web is about the same distance. My EDC X9 has the medium grip and trigger I believe.

So that would certainly make a difference for smaller hands. I have L/XL hands and wide palms so the longer front to back is actually a plus for me, more surface for my palm to grip and better control for recoil. Much like how I find the Glock 21 Gen 4 almost perfectly fit for my hand.
 
Last edited:
JR24 said:
As far as I'm concerned a better BHP exists in the Wilson EDC X9. Good ergonomics, great trigger. Pricey, sure.

Following up next year or maybe this year is the Dan Wesson DWX. Much closer in price, but with good ergonomics and almost certainly a fantastic trigger.
Click to expand...

I am eagerly awaiting the DWX.
Perhaps it is because I do better with a CZ75 than a BHP... or EDCX9.
 
Jim Watson said:
I am eagerly awaiting the DWX.
Perhaps it is because I do better with a CZ75 than a BHP... or EDCX9.
Click to expand...

The compact interested me, but CZ compact grips don't work for me all that well (full size are amazing).

But I am betting the DWX will knock it out of the park, I expect folks will absolutely love it if it has a trigger worth the DW label.
 
Kind of sad, just as Nighthawk tools up to pimp out Brownings as their idea of diversifying from the crowded custom 1911 market, FN quits making them. Meanwhile Wilson is in cahoots with Beretta and now Sig and going like gangbusters.
 
SSN Vet said:
This is almost always caused by people bending the sear spring to lighten the trigger pull.

Compare the shape of the new sear spring from MGW to the one you have in the gun and I suspect you'll see a significant difference.

The key to a good trigger in the BHP is.
1. ditch the mag disconnect (this is easy and there are many YouTube videos to walk you through it)
2. Swap out the springs.... you'll find disagreement here, but I don't think you can go wrong with the Cylinder and Slide trigger pull reduction spring set (they have options for target and duty use). Don't just change the hammer spring, as the hammer spring, firing pin spring and recoil spring work in concert and you need to adjust them all to maintain reliability and not beat up the frame.
3. polish the sear nose and hammer hooks with a very fine Arkansas or ceramic stone (polish only, don't modify unless you know what you're doing and have the appropriate jigs).
4. If you take the time to really learn how the BHP works, detail strip the trigger mechanism, put in a 3 coil trigger spring and debur/polish the trigger lever and the slot in the frame. Then you can debur/polish the sear lever and slot in the slide.
5. If you invest serious time and study into the platform and are willing to spend some coin on a Power Custom sear jig, then go after lowering the hammer hooks and put a relief bevel on the sear. But buy and extra sear and hammer as you'll likely screw it up the first time you try it.

NOTE!!!
Nowhere on my list did I say bend the sear spring. The sear spring is critical to preventing hammer follow. You don't need to screw with it to get an excellent trigger and I believe you'll find that most experienced and responsible smiths will tell you not to. You can polish the interface between the sear spring and the bottom lever of the sear, but that (IMO) is all the fiddling you should do with the sear spring.
Click to expand...
Parts just showed up from MGW this morning.

I think you were right on with the sear spring, as it was basically flat compared to the new spring, which has a pretty good arch to it.

The sear also looks like it was messed with, as the new one has nice, clean, sharp edges, where the old one was kind of rounded over on the edges.

Popped both in and the trigger now feels like the one in my MKIII, and the hammer isnt following the slide down when released.

Just got back from the range a little while ago and 200 rounds of uninterrupted, if not now a little boring, fun. Boring is good for this. :)

Shoots pretty good too. 15 yards, and about 175 of the 200 rounds. If I slowed down a little and actually focused on things, Im sure it will tighten up.

The round in the upper right is a total puzzle. No idea where that came from, and Im pretty good at calling stuff like that. On occasion, I get things like that with my Glocks and others now and then too, and Im thinking it might be the cheap bullets Im loading (I use the same reloads for everything 9mm).

The three in the lower left kind of puzzle me too, but whatever it is, at least Im consistent and starting to get a decent group going! :D

enhance.jpg
 
Does anybody know for sure that FNH has stopped making P-35s? I know Browning (BACO) has stopped buying and selling them, they never made them. The reason I ask is I know several people who have purchased custom BHPs from Novaks Inc since Browning announced they were stopping the sale of BHPs, these were not customer supplied pistols but ready to go shop models. All the pistols I looked at were brand new MKIII type pistols, FNH marked , not Browning marked, Imported by Novaks Inc .

I remember when CDNN briefly had brand new FNH marked Hi-powers for like 450-499? some years back and Browning complained, that was the end of that.
 
I'm always amazed at what some people consider "news".

We had a very long discussion about this when it happened.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

RainDodger
  • Locked
Bye-bye Hi-Power, says Browning...
2 3 4
Replies
99
Views
7K
Sovblocgunfan
Sovblocgunfan
B
  • Locked
The most iconic all metal 9mms pistols in history...
2 3
Replies
58
Views
3K
Comrade Mike
C
N
  • Locked
FN Hi-Power -vs- Browning Hi-Power
Replies
7
Views
3K
PCRCCW
P
R
  • Locked
Older hi-power
Replies
4
Views
567
rick melear
R
johnmcl
  • Locked
Browning Hi Power, Discontinued
2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10
Replies
236
Views
21K
Billy Shears
B
Back
Top