cap and ball channel tests original paper cartridge type in colt, adams, starr, and remington

I had been wondering about trying an energetic 2F (Olde Eynsford), but seeing the dismal numbers Swiss created I’m not so sure anymore. Of course 24 grns is pretty anemic anyway, but from what little I’ve seen 3F generally would have put that firmly in the warm .44 Spl level of performance, what I consider the very least you need for hunting.

I like the look of that bullet, but that Colt at 200 mps translated to 656 fps and that was the best. The Adams only produces 505fps!

It did make me wonder. The host commented that the Adams had the largest diameter chambers and groove diameter.

Perhaps some historical expert can answer some Adams Beuamont questions.
Did the American made versions have tighter chambers and barrels?
Was the British version intended for use with the felt wad version of bullets as the earlier .28 and .36 Adams pistols were? Their bullets had a little spike on the base that held on a felt wad which Adams claimed allowed them to be loaded with thumb pressure without the need of a rammer.

just curious.

-kBob

I guess this is why Hazard made their paper cartridges with energetic 4F, though their cartridge had a 211 grn bullet pushed by 36 grns.

We’ve often heard of Civil War vets stating the conicals of the day penetrated but didn’t have a lot of “put you down” compared to a ball. I wonder how the .44 conicals compared to the .36 ball. Conicals were what was issued for some reason, and the horses and mules seems a dumb reason. So if a ball was much more effective why issue the conicals? I ask because I’m a bit dumbfounded actually, and I’m rather ignorant on why the pointy conicals caught on.

I like Capandball.

He does stuff with original guns that would give the typical uppity American collector a case of the vapors.

His skills are also miles ahead of most monotone and zero stage presence YouTubers, as well.

Another thing that comes to mind is how we’ve often heard how Civil War veterans have claimed a ball was more effective. From what little out there we’ve always seen that a ball from a pistol creates a ball sized permanent wound track. It’s been shown a pointy bullet allows flesh to stretch thereby creating a smaller wound. I’d love to see just how small, especially in comparison since the two soldiers Mr Keith knew seemed to speak on just the .36 cal. Did caliber make a big difference there?

Due to its higher sectional density, the bullet should have provided better penetration, especially at longer distances after the ball had shed some of its energy.
Soldiers also wore some relatively heavy uniforms along with items that created padding and additional barriers to penetrate, and also bone.
Those factors would seem to give the pointy bullet some advantages.
Imagine if a bullet struck a horse, the additional penetration through its hide could end up being more effective.

Next up, he should do the same comparison with ball and 30 grs of 3 Fffg powder.

I have shot Jackrabbits with both ball and conical bullets, the ball will go nearly through the animals where as the conical will not. Both are literally instant kills. Conical is a 200 grain semi wadcutter over 30 grains of powder, Pyrodex, 777, Blackmz, same results with all 3.

It's interesting that not all of the Union bullet paper cartridges were equal.
Some seemed to have anemic powder charges while others were listed as having relatively stout loads.
And according to Gatofeo, the Union soldiers loaded round balls with an average charge of only 25 grains of loose powder which wasn't a very powerful load either. --->>> https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...nal-charges-for-cap-and-ball-revolvers.66499/

I wonder if the powder charges mentioned by Gatofeo below are accurate information?
Especially since capandball was making cartridges with 24 grains of 2F Swiss powder which he said was close to the original load [after the 2:15 mark in the video].

COLT ARMY .44
Hazard Powder Co. - 211 gr. conical / 36 grs. powder
Bartholow's - 260 gr. conical / 19 grs. powder
Johnston & Dow - 242 gr. conical / 35 grs. powder
Unknown - 257 gr. conical / 17 grs. powder
Unknown - 207 gr. conical / 22 grs. powder
Hotchkiss - 207 gr. conical / 22 grs. powder

And he posted:
In the 1860s an average load for the Colt M1860 .44 revolver was 25 grs. of powder with a 146 gr. (about 460" diameter) round ball or a conical bullet of about 230 grs.

arcticap said:

It's interesting that not all of the Union bullet paper cartridges were equal.
Some seemed to have anemic powder charges while others were listed as having relatively stout loads.
And according to Gatofeo, the Union soldiers loaded round balls with an average charge of only 25 grains of loose powder which wasn't a very powerful load either. --->>> https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...nal-charges-for-cap-and-ball-revolvers.66499/

I wonder if the powder charges mentioned by Gatofeo below are accurate information?
Especially since capandball was making cartridges with 24 grains of 2F Swiss powder which he said was close to the original load [after the 2:15 mark in the video].

COLT ARMY .44
Hazard Powder Co. - 211 gr. conical / 36 grs. powder
Bartholow's - 260 gr. conical / 19 grs. powder
Johnston & Dow - 242 gr. conical / 35 grs. powder
Unknown - 257 gr. conical / 17 grs. powder
Unknown - 207 gr. conical / 22 grs. powder
Hotchkiss - 207 gr. conical / 22 grs. powder

And he posted:
In the 1860s an average load for the Colt M1860 .44 revolver was 25 grs. of powder with a 146 gr. (about 460" diameter) round ball or a conical bullet of about 230 grs.

Click to expand...

I’ve always taken it as accurate, but we can see the two fellas have different information. And now I want to reread the information on the Hazard’s paper cartridges again to see how it compares.

The larger diameter chambers could very well mean that the bullet did not seat as snugly as in the other revolvers with smaller diameter chambers. I have read that how tight a projectile fits in the chamber has a significant effect on pressure, a very significant effect.

The Johnston and Dow conicals are advertised as 0.460 in diameter. The video says 0.462 (close enough.)

The Adams has large chambers with abrupt tapering. Chambers are 0.464 but only after 1 centimeter deep they taper to 0.445 Hard to press in yes but too much of cone shape would mean the projectile comes out easier way easier I would guess. Barrel groove to groove diameter is 0.457. There would probably be only a narrow band on the bullet left to engage the rifling after being pressed into the chamber. How long is the Jonston and Dow bullet? Better yet what are the full dimensions (specs?) Can anyone chime in?

The Starr chambers were 0.464 in diameter with a taper, how much is not told in the video and a bore groove to groove diameter of a whopping 0.480. So your bullet has to be pressed deep enough into the large cone shaped chamber until it meets at least a tad less than 0.460 diameter of chamber wall or it will fall out which in turn has to move down a bore with 0.480 groove to groove diameter. This is a loose fit in the chambers combined with loads of gas passing by the bullet through the grooves in the barrel when firing.

I wonder if the Starr and Adams were made to fire hollow based bullets that expand into the rifling. Is there any information on this ?

They are also old guns. How much cylinder gap do they now have ?

How worn out are the barrels ?

The Starr and Adams look like they have shorter barrels but not short enough to produce that much a velocity difference. I am left with cylinder gap, tightness of the projectile against the chamber walls and bore diameter.

The clue to me was the larger bore and chamber diameters produce less power although not conclusive I would lean towards a looser chamber fit, maybe not loose overall but significantly looser than in the smaller chambered guns with less taper in the walls; and poor bullet to bore fit as being the culprits.

The Remington had a 0.457 groove to groove diameter bore and matching chambers. Although I do not know I doubt the taper in the chambers are extreme.

The Colt had a 0.457 groove to groove in the bore the video did not address the chambers but my impression is they are very similar to the Remington chambers and again I don't know how much Colts taper either.

My guess is the Johnston and Dow conicals were designed to be fired in guns like the Remington and Colt. I can't see them being optimal performers in the Starr or Adams.

Even with the gaps in information I think I have a pretty clear impression of why the Colt and Remington had better velocity and accuracy than the Starr and Adams with Johnston and Dow conicals.

Maybe the cartridges with the heavier powder charges were used in the Colt Dragoons.
The Dragoons were intended to be used by the cavalry to shoot enemy mounts, which some were issued 2 Dragoons each.

I don't know if those strong cartridges would even fit in an 1860 or 1858.

I agree that a tighter fit in the cylinder will make a faster projectile mainly because more powder has a chance to burn and more pressure is built to push the projectile out.

.455_Hunter said:

I like Capandball.

He does stuff with original guns that would give the typical uppity American collector a case of the vapors.

His skills are also miles ahead of most monotone and zero stage presence YouTubers, as well.

Click to expand...

I know him. He's the real deal, shoots on the Hungarian Muzzle-Loading Team. Ran the 2016 World Championships...I have no idea when he slept that week.

Does anyone offer a pre made kit that contains C&B's paper cartridge making set up?

Template for cutting curling paper, non stick dowel of the correct taper and base sealing block?

Shoot just the template for paper cutting would be great!

-kBob

kBob said:

Does anyone offer a pre made kit that contains C&B's paper cartridge making set up?

Template for cutting curling paper, non stick dowel of the correct taper and base sealing block?

Shoot just the template for paper cutting would be great!

-kBob

Click to expand...

There's a French company that sells a kit, and they also sell the components separately [Edit - Except not to the USA].
However, if you read a blog page describing it, you'll find that the buyer ended up making his own mandrel and paper template for his original gun.
The cost of the brass mandrel is 8.50 Euros, their paper is 7.50 Euros, which is without the glue and the wooden cartridge box.
The size of the paper may affect how much powder that can be loaded which isn't specified AFAIK.

First I started at this THR thread which mentions that there are different cartridges, which the traditional tapered is one type. --->>> https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/paper-cartridge-templates.799084/

That brought me to this blog page in English where the author describes the French kit that he bought and how to make your own. --->>> https://svartkrutt.net/articles/vis.php?id=51

From there I found the French website named HC Collection which has a British flag in the top right corner to translate it to English. --->>> https://www.hc-collection.com

Then I found this page under reloading to choose the caliber: --->>> https://www.hc-collection.com/36-44-combustible-envelope-cartridges-c102x2068981
Here's the page with the .44 percussion kit and individual components for sale: --->>> https://www.hc-collection.com/44-calibre-c102x2069014

AFTER POSTING I SEE THAT THEY WON"T SHIP THE TREATED PAPER TO THE USA.
THE BLOG HAS INSTRUCTIONS, A VIDEO AND A CALCULATOR TO MAKE YOUR OWN TEMPLATE.

Google Translator can also be used to read foreign websites in English. --->>> http://itools.com/tool/google-translate-web-page-translator
Delete the HTTP:// that's in the address box before entering a foreign URL.

Thank you very much.

I had hope you might respond.

-kBob

I did a write up on making paper cartridges that might help you. If you are interested heres the link:
https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...tridge-works-and-remington-36-conical.865212/

Jackrabbit1957 said:

I have shot Jackrabbits with both ball and conical bullets, the ball will go nearly through the animals where as the conical will not. Both are literally instant kills. Conical is a 200 grain semi wadcutter over 30 grains of powder, Pyrodex, 777, Blackmz, same results with all 3.

Click to expand...

Mr.jackrabbit1957, so you have shot at jackrabbits using both a round ball and semi-wad cutter conical but round ball goes deeper than the conical? Which looks to make more damage internally if you can tell? Also which conical are you using...custom built or..? What type of alloy...pure lead? Wheel weight? Im very curious.

Round ball will go plumb through at times. The conical I use is a hard cast 452 200 gr semi wadcutter that has been knurled. I have not seen one go completely through an animal as of yet. They do make a different splat sound than a round ball but either way the rabbit is down for good, instant kills with either bullet. Can't tell you much about the internal damage as we don't cook Jackrabbits, they taste pretty awful. They are considered a pest animal here, no limit on them and don't need a license to hunt them.

Yeah figured you werent eating them but was curious if you ever checked out the damage being as you saw a difference in the bullet vs. ball performance

kBob said:

Does anyone offer a pre made kit that contains C&B's paper cartridge making set up?

Template for cutting curling paper, non stick dowel of the correct taper and base sealing block?

Shoot just the template for paper cutting would be great!

-kBob

Click to expand...

Dustin Weineger (sp) makes a kit for all calibers. Guns of The West is his YouTube channel

kBob said:

Does anyone offer a pre made kit that contains C&B's paper cartridge making set up?

Click to expand...

Thanks to Don Van Winkle, I found the video that Dustin posted about his new cartridge making kit.

The video caption states how to order the kit.

"In this video, I’ll demonstrate how to use my paper cartridge kit for cap & ball revolvers. For pricing and details on how to order, send an email to [email protected] with the subject line, “Paper Cartridge Kit.” The kits are available to residents of the United States."



Dustin made another video about firing the cartridges and his EZ Frame Kit:
The caption states:
To order a paper cartridge kit, email me at [email protected] and use the subject line, “Paper Cartridge Kit.”

To order the EZ Frame Target Kit, email me at [email protected] and use the subject line, “EZ Frame Kit.”