Any inherent weakness of steel framed .44 1851????

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alnukem

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Hi, I just bought a 1969 Euroarms of Brescia Steel Framed 44 caliber 1851 Navy Model. I would guess it was in a little fire as the grips are charred, missing a good bit of blue & it stunk like smoke when I took it apart. After cleaning it up, it appears to have never been fired, times up nicely, light trigger pull, springs are all good except the loading lever retention spring seems too light, which I do not think was the result of the fire. It is ugly, but I kinda find it cosmetically appealing, it looks real! I paid a whopping $25 for it & have a little over a hour in cleaning it up. Is there anything inherently wrong with a '51 in 44 caliber, like too light for the recoil, frame not sturdy enough to stand up to real shooting? It does have a rebated cylinder. Thanks in advance!
 
Too light for recoil? These guns are heavier than the plastic guns made today. Solid hunk of steel. Steel framed open tops can take a beating as far as hot loads are concerned. You wont hurt it with black powder. Just make sure the gun is tight ...check the lcylinder gap...anywhere from .0025-.005 should be great and make sure the arbor bottoms out in the frame. Check that it cylces well and doesnt drag the bolt on the cylinder. Pop a few caps and see if they will pop on first hammer strike too.
 
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alnukem said:
Is there anything inherently wrong with a '51 in 44 caliber, like too light for the recoil, frame not sturdy enough to stand up to real shooting? It does have a rebated cylinder. Thanks in advance!
Click to expand...

Some folks think that some of the older production guns had soft internal parts.
Maybe some did and maybe some didn't.
Premature wear of the sear is something to be aware of if the trigger pull becomes too light with use over time.

1. https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...arbine-pietta-comparison.184912/#post-2268708

2. https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/58-remington-timing.559090/#post-6917505

It sounds like your gun absorbed some heat from the fire.
Hopefully the metal parts didn't suffer any heat damage.
Good luck and let us know how it works out.
 
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The 51 44 cal the gun that never was, that said I have spent many enjoyable hours shooting them. I got into black powder in the early 80s It was common to get C and Bs with laundry lists of issues. Bolts bigger than cylinder notches, cylinder notches of different sizes, short arbors, hands that were very soft. But if you worked your way through those issues you would end up with a nice shooting shooter and learn a lot doing it.
 
The usual assumption is that if the springs were not annealed and collapsed, the structural steel is OK.

Although the .44 "1851" is a "reproduction" of a gun that never existed, the rebated cylinder and stepped frame are the same as what Colt did to produce the 1860. It will shoot.
 
alnukem said:
Is there anything inherently wrong with a '51 in 44 caliber, like too light for the recoil, frame not sturdy enough to stand up to real shooting?
Click to expand...

No, I own one as well.
There really is no difference between a .44 Navy and a .44 Army.
The 1860 Army was simply an upgraded 1851 Navy with a stronger stepped cylinder made of Bessemer steel, a new round barrel, a creeping loading lever, and a longer grip frame.
The frame, springs, hammer, and internal parts are all the same.
Colt could simply have offered the .44 Navy instead of the .44 Army.
However, by rounding and increasing the barrel length by 1/2", and elongating the grip frame, he created the illusion that it was an entirely new revolver.
 
Old Stumpy said:
No, I own one as well.
There really is no difference between a .44 Navy and a .44 Army.
The 1860 Army was simply an upgraded 1851 Navy with a stronger stepped cylinder made of Bessemer steel, a new round barrel, a creeping loading lever, and a longer grip frame.
The frame, springs, hammer, and internal parts are all the same.
Colt could simply have offered the .44 Navy instead of the .44 Army.
However, by rounding and increasing the barrel length by 1/2", and elongating the grip frame, he created the illusion that it was an entirely new revolver.
Click to expand...
Thank you, I suspected that.
 
Historically based shooting is best C&B shooting. Plenty of .44’s to choose from that are historically predicated. With the mods available to us there is no need to go Italian fantasy land.
 
As a precaution due to heat it might be an advantage to replace the internals just because of not only the heat exposure but also the iffy parts quality of the time. The gun needs to be disassembled any way and it could save you from having issues while shooting. A $25 it's a minute investment.
 
Eyrie G. Dogg said:
Historically based shooting is best C&B shooting. Plenty of .44’s to choose from that are historically predicated. With the mods available to us there is no need to go Italian fantasy land.
Click to expand...

If the .44 Navy was markedly different from the .36 Navy, my purist sensibilities might be offended. But it isn't. And, I am not a rabid civil war reenactment defarber, proclaiming that anything that isn't 99.9% authentic is heresy. Any revolver that appeals to the average shooter is going to be fun to shoot.

There are a number of Pietta revolvers that are less than historically accurate, yet very appealing, very logical, steel-frame strong, practical, and fun to shoot. So why not enjoy them?
 
OK I'll bite.

Concerning replicas.

Improper Arbor length Uberti too Short Pietta too long. Some say current Piettas now have proper arbors, My impression from reading is most current Piettas have proper arbors but it's still hit and miss whether the one you buy does. Arbor problems piss me off. Is your arbor done right. The reason I ask is I read a lot of the older replicas despite their possible shortcomings (pre-CNC) were more faithful to the original designs than the later ones that evolved.

Cap jamming. A long time ago I shot a brass open top design for the first time and I learned the true meaning of cap jamming. It was not much of a problem with Remington like designs. There are tricks and ways to reduce this but I think a cap post or shield is a must if you don't want to be at risk of being plagued by caps falling into your action and jamming up the gun. I can't be too angry. Apparently it's part of the design and was a problem in the old days too. There was a company that addressed this problem in the old days by installing some sort of shield (Manhattan Conversion ?) in open tops to prevent this and the good news is today there is a fix.

Another problem that tees me off is the loading gate not being large enough to accept conicals and paper cartridges. These were and are designed for this, why is the opening on the Colt open top replica of all models too small for conicals. Do these people who make and sell these realize how much fun is forfeited if you can't load paper cartridges or even conical bullets.

If anyone sells these set up and customized for extra money they really should include the warning that conicals and paper cartridges won't fit so the customer can request the opening be modified to do so even if it cost a little extra instead of finding out the hard way.

This is inexcusable backwards evolution.

Fortunately it's a relatively easy fix with the proper file or rotary tool (Foredom or Dremel.) Why can't I find FULL SPECS AND DIMENSIONS ,YOU KNOW MEASUREMENTS, THE NUMBERS, for conicals like the Johnston and Dow and Lees anywhere. Does yours have a properly sized opening that accepts conical bullets?

Open top sights at first appearance to the average user seem like a joke but my impression is although not a good as any properly zeroed fixed sight on any garbage gun, they actually work quite well at reasonable distances (50 to 75 yards more or less maybe even more) if properly set up.

Advantages are these things seem to run forever without binding due to black powder fowling and sludge not so with the Remington. Although Remingtons don't have much of a problem with cap jams after 2 to 3 cylinder loads they become stiff jamomatics. Neglecting to loosen clean, and lube the cylinder pin on a Remington after about 12 to 18 shots will make it hell to remove afterwards in addition to making your cylinder too stiff to turn.

Guns with cylinder bushings like the Rogers and Spencer as well as the Ruger Old Army don't have that problem but my impression is the open top designs are still king when it comes to running with the presence of heavy black powder fowling.

Open tops have appeal. They look good, feel good in the hand, and have a lower bore axis making them natural pointers. Their balance makes them feel lighter in the hand as well.
 
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alnukem said:
Is there anything inherently wrong with a '51 in 44 caliber...,
Click to expand...
YES
They have a tendency, just about 99% of those that own one, get another cap-n-ball revolver, then another, then another, etc, and so on....
Sometimes the second one is the same style as the first to create a "gunfighter's pair" OR maybe it's a "pocket" or a "sheriff" model....
Then a couple .36 calibers are needed, a 5" and a 7.5" version...,
Then maybe a .31....Baby Remington, OR
A big horse pistol like a Walker or a Colt's Dragoon...
Followed-up by a caplock SxS 20 gauge Howdah, or .58 caliber or larger, flintlock pistol...
then there's the "Colt Pepperbox, which is a .36 revolver with just a really long cylinder, that acts as 6 barrels...,
You want complicated and cool..., then you want a LeMatt revolver...,
Going to need a Cattleman Revolving Carbine too...,
OH and don't forget a Duck's food derringer, a New Orleans "Ace" pistol, and an Elgin Cutlass pistol...,

EGAD! FLEE WHILE YOU CAN, MAN! SAVE YOURSELF!

LD
 
Loyalist Dave was willing to admit the truth while the rest of us were in denial about our addiction. We didnt even warn an innocent person about how dabbling with these curiousities ends up turning into a full blown addiction. Or maybe subconsciously we wanted to see another person turn into a black powder fanatic so we can feel relieved by pointing out and saying "see! Its not just me! Others get hooked too!" When we try and justify to others our infatuation with this hobby.
 
grter said:
OK I'll bite.

Concerning replicas.

Improper Arbor length Uberti too Short Pietta too long. Some say current Piettas now have proper arbors, My impression from reading is most current Piettas have proper arbors but it's still hit and miss whether the one you buy does. Arbor problems piss me off. Is your arbor done right. The reason I ask is I read a lot of the older replicas despite their possible shortcomings (pre-CNC) were more faithful to the original designs than the later ones that evolved.

Cap jamming. A long time ago I shot a brass open top design for the first time and I learned the true meaning of cap jamming. It was not much of a problem with Remington like designs. There are tricks and ways to reduce this but I think a cap post or shield is a must if you don't want to be at risk of being plagued by caps falling into your action and jamming up the gun. I can't be too angry. Apparently it's part of the design and was a problem in the old days too. There was a company that addressed this problem in the old days by installing some sort of shield (Manhattan Conversion ?) in open tops to prevent this and the good news is today there is a fix.

Another problem that tees me off is the loading gate not being large enough to accept conicals and paper cartridges. These were and are designed for this, why is the opening on the Colt open top replica of all models too small for conicals. Do these people who make and sell these realize how much fun is forfeited if you can't load paper cartridges or even conical bullets.

If anyone sells these set up and customized for extra money they really should include the warning that conicals and paper cartridges won't fit so the customer can request the opening be modified to do so even if it cost a little extra instead of finding out the hard way.

This is inexcusable backwards evolution.

Fortunately it's a relatively easy fix with the proper file or rotary tool (Foredom or Dremel.) Why can't I find FULL SPECS AND DIMENSIONS ,YOU KNOW MEASUREMENTS, THE NUMBERS, for conicals like the Johnston and Dow and Lees anywhere. Does yours have a properly sized opening that accepts conical bullets?

Open top sights at first appearance to the average user seem like a joke but my impression is although not a good as any properly zeroed fixed sight on any garbage gun, they actually work quite well at reasonable distances (50 to 75 yards more or less maybe even more) if properly set up.

Advantages are these things seem to run forever without binding due to black powder fowling and sludge not so with the Remington. Although Remingtons don't have much of a problem with cap jams after 2 to 3 cylinder loads they become stiff jamomatics. Neglecting to loosen clean, and lube the cylinder pin on a Remington after about 12 to 18 shots will make it hell to remove afterwards in addition to making your cylinder too stiff to turn.

Guns with cylinder bushings like the Rogers and Spencer as well as the Ruger Old Army don't have that problem but my impression is the open top designs are still king when it comes to running with the presence of heavy black powder fowling.

Open tops have appeal. They look good, feel good in the hand, and have a lower bore axis making them natural pointers. Their balance makes them feel lighter in the hand as well.
Click to expand...

I've attempted asking manufacturers questions. The main answer I get is"they are just reproductions".
Leads me to believe that yes they strive for safety, looks and some accuracy. But for the most part bang and you survive.
 
TheOutlawKid said:
Loyalist Dave was willing to admit the truth while the rest of us were in denial about our addiction. We didnt even warn an innocent person about how dabbling with these curiousities ends up turning into a full blown addiction. Or maybe subconsciously we wanted to see another person turn into a black powder fanatic so we can feel relieved by pointing out and saying "see! Its not just me! Others get hooked too!" When we try and justify to others our infatuation with this hobby.
Click to expand...

Thanks, Unfortunately, I have worked Full Time @ a gun shop for 41 years. I have gone through many phases like "the Wonder Nine of the Week", "How many decent Custom 98 Mausers do you need for Deer Hunting", "the how powerful Revolver do I not need", the relitively recent...."that used AR is how cheap?", the one that really wrecked me financially for a while, "I need such & such Machinegun!" & the infamous "How could I pass that up for that Price?". It has all turned out good. This is a pretty cheap voyage & distraction.
 
alnukem said:
Thanks. This is a pretty cheap voyage & distraction.
Click to expand...

As it should be. I have always tired of uninformed folks asking questions about modern handguns when they don't want to look up information that is readily available, and then if a reply comes forth that they don't have in their mindset they ignore or disdain it. Most of the folks on BP revolver forums are not that way and are truly looking for info. That is why I rarely go to any modern firearms forums nor do I post there.

Sad state of affairs.

Regards,

Jim
 
Im very young...but im very much into anything "old fashioned". Love traditional stuff. I wont own any of the new stuff. Im a die hard black powder only kind of guy...and no brass cartridges.
 
Hey Outlaw kid, we need more youngsters like you to get involved in this hobby or obsession. I have a few modern hand guns but always come back to the black powder stuff. I just get a little worried that it's gonna fade into the sunset if more youngsters don't step up and start doin this. Rock on brudder.
 
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