need help! 45-70 and leading issues...

Powder coat or gas check. Check bore size and bullet size & hardness. That should do it.

What load are you using?

midland man said:

so guys can i use durofelt wads with smokless powder under the bullets?

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I honestly have no idea how that would work out for you. But at a guess, I don't think it would help much.

Is the leading down the whole barrel, or just towards the chamber, or more towards the muzzle?

midland man said:

about a third of the way in from the muzzle!

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Okay. If you mean that the leading begins 6" or so from the muzzle and continues down the barrel to the muzzle, I've had that problem. It was due to driving the bullet too fast. The bullet in question was coated and .458" in diameter. Once it got up to a certain velocity, it simply didn't hold up and began to break free from the rifling.

What diameter bullets are you using? Uncoated? No gas check?

midland man said:

these the 405gr are premade i bought from a gentlemen and they are old silverstate at .457dia and the other are cast out of a lee mould 90373 they are as cast at .458 to .458 1/2ths and i'm using wheelweights to cast and i'm using the starting loads out of my lyman third edition handbook but they don't show that 340gr only a 322gr so i adjusted my loads to be a tad less powder due to that bullet i'm using is 18grs heavier and using lee alox on all of these bullets plain base...

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If you're target shooting or plinking, you might try some loads with 2400. Lower velocity will stop the issue. Then maybe select a larger diameter for heavier loads, or perhaps try some gas checks.

Probably not what you want to hear, but it's all I can offer by way or advice.

I've pushed these
pretty hard with no problem at all. That being said, trapdoor loads will easily kill deer & pigs. Trajectory will be steep but there's not much that'll survive a 350+ grain bullet going 1000+ fps.

I have a load using a Montana Bullet Works hardcast with a gas check. Can't remember for sure but I think it's 405gr at .458". I was driving those pretty fast.

With a 405 from the 45-70 you just have to hit a deer to kill it. I messed around one time with plinking loads, got them down to 600fps. Have some to a farmer friend who had a nuisance permit, he it a big doe under his pare tree about 50 yards from the kitchen window. He said it just fell over dead.

I'd try a lighter charge for a slower powder. When your ready for new bullets get some powder coated or hi-tech bullets. Slug your bore to.

WrongHanded said:

I have a load using a Montana Bullet Works hardcast with a gas check. Can't remember for sure but I think it's 405gr at .458". I was driving those pretty fast.

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I've got some of those as well... they are fantastic bullets, just expensive.

Midland, you are driving those bullets too fast. I have data in my notes from when I had my Marlin 1895...

With the 405grn Montana gas checked bullet, 47grn IMR3031 gave me 1720fps, 47grn IMR4895 gave me 1525fps, 48grn IMR4064 gave me 1650fps... all those were brutal on the buttstock and I wound up pulling almost 100 cartridges. Even with the gas checks, the accuracy was not good, and I was getting indications of leading at the barrel muzzle, too. That same bullet, with a more sedate charge of IMR4198, gave me 1270fps and 1475fps (30 and 35grn IMR4198, respectively...) and far better accuracy. Further, I didn't have to send out a search party for my retinas, and I didn't have to scrub the bore like a madman after 50 rounds of it.

In the .45-70, I've gotten completely away from slower powders and high velocity... there is no arguing with the physical laws of a 405grn bullet traveling at ~1300fps. I've probably mentioned this in a previous post, but IMR4198 is my cast bullet rifle powder. In the .45-70, you can substitute 2400 with good results, too...

I am working with some home cast (by a friend, I don't cast...) 385grn RN coated bullet. I don't know the hardness, but I would guess they are in the 12-14 BHN range, and he's coated them with some snotty, sticky stuff. 18grn 2400 puts me right at 1200fps with very good accuracy, 28grn IMR4198 gives me right at 1350fps and excellent accuracy. I would have no problem poking piggies with either of those loads.

When I was shooting the 45-70 pretty regularly with the 405 plain base bullet (Lee mold) I used IMR 3031, Varget and Benchmark for the hotter/faster loads. I sized my bullets at .459 through my Lyman 4500 with Black Moly lube and then I also tumble lubed in Lee Alox. They shot fine from the NEF Handi-Rifle I was using and a friend's Guide Gun. Recoil was notable with the Benchmark and Varget loads.

I eventually settled with 15-16gr Unique for this bullet and ended up killing 3 deer with that rifle/bullet/load combo. Recoils like a 20ga. bird load and hits like a hammer. Through and through, in and out.

No leading either.

midland man said:

well i'm trying to find some loads good for deer and wild hogs so its fun shooting these big ol'e recoiling loads but maybe i need to try loads for the trapdoor instead of the hotter loads listed for the marlin 1895 in which they are stronger!

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I have found for my Marlin SBL that the MBC 405 grain Large Buffalo bullets do well at or near original 45-70 velocities. I use the Oregon Trail Bullet Company gas checked 430 grain for heavier loads. These are all .459 bullets if I recall. If you have .457 diameter and driving them hard, which you seem to be, good luck with that as they will likely lead as described. The .457 is not going to work with the Marlin bore IMO. In other words, just because you have something for free does not really mean you have something useful. You need a .459 diameter is my thought. And slow the bullet down or get gas checks. You might be able to use those undersize bullets, maybe, with Trail Boss at the published limit loading for low velocity plinking.

With lead bullets I use gas checks and try to stick to hard cast lead. I've had no leading problems. I don't shoot a 45-70 so i'm not sure if this info is any good. Gas checks work well at stopping leading IMO. I've only used lead bullets in pistols loaded pretty hot. 44 magnum & 480 Ruger.

3Crows said:

If you have .457 diameter and driving them hard, which you seem to be, good luck with that as they will likely lead as described.

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I didn't catch that they were .457"... no wonder they are leading.

For the record, my cast bullets were cast from 100% Clip-On wheel weights. They come in right around Lyman #2. They're bone crushers.

I just loaded some 405 grain with Trail Boss. I am Curious to see what the leading does also

Dead Eye Duck said:

I am Curious to see what the leading does also

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There are a number of things that contribute to barrel leading... individually, or... worse... collectively. Undersized bullets for the bore is probably #1, followed closely on it's heels by driving them too fast; combine the two and you are sure to not only lead that barrel, but have abysmal accuracy as well. You can run out of lube before the muzzle... usually manifested by leading at a specific point in the barrel forward to the muzzle. Bullet hardness is another factor, but I've seen very soft bullets shoot well without leading... but, see my first 3 points. I've also seen very hard bullets lead... usually a combination of velocity and/or poor bullet to bore fit. The base of a lead bullet needs to obturate to seal the bore, a too-hard bullet won't do that, and particularly an undersized one.

If I had 457 diameter bullets I would be powder coating them. The coating will increase your size and protect you from leading.