Solenoid action

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Ten Mile Knives

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Hear me out here..what do you think if a solenoid actuated action in a firearm. Basically instead if gas pressure or recoil, the action is timed from an electronic trigger pull and actuated by a magnetic solenoid of sorts. This would primarily have two advantages and some disadvantages. Pros: very lightweight and simple, there would be very few moving parts and they wouldn't need to be steel because only the bolt face would experience much wear or force. Also the cost would be significantly reduced. The cons are obvious, the need for a battery in order to operate. However, I feel that the firearms industry in general is already heading towards more integrated systems. Examples include various startups provideling electronic trigger with reduced lock time, electronically aided weapons sights, and powered rail sections for lights, optics, and lasers. Thoughts?
 
maybe, but its hard to beat whats out there. Conventional piston designs are considered unreliable if they cant go 5000 shots between cleaning, so theres that. Big limiters... Copper windings don't do well with bore cleaners. Fouling is hard on moving things. Most fouling comes from the bolt opening, not the gas port... so you would still need a piston from the actuator... so your weight savings goes away, or a sealed unit, and the reliability is questionable. Heat is very bad for these things as well, as it is for most batteries that could run one. Ultimately, I hear solenoid, I think power door locks (which are not strong enough for what you describe, despite being 4" long and weighing 2lbs) which don't last as many cycles as a US military test would run. The big drain really is that a gas system on an AR weighs in at about 6oz, including the FSB, tube, snorkel and rings, and contrary to popular belief, they don't run dirty, and are reliable. The solenoid thing may be more practical in issues with corrosive ammunition, or much larger systems like tank cannons, and howitzers. As far as startups, Remington failed. Most small companies working in this field are not interested in better technology, or improved products, but in being the only market option when the government mandates something. That doesn't usually include what you describe. But I could be wrong. I have seen a few power lock solenoids lock up though, and I would not want that in a firearm.
 
You are close to describing a minigun or full auto Gatling.
Solenoids actuating the action are going to grow prohibitively heavier as the length of the action grows. Maybe a 22 caliber action would be fine with a solenoid.
Coupling this with an electric trigger would move you closer to an arrest warrant as the firearm would be too easy to convert to an electric machine gun.
 
presspuller said:
Didn't Remington have an electronic rifle/primer years ago? Or am I dreaming that?
Click to expand...

They did: the E-tronix system of electric-primed ammunition and rifles for it. It flopped, though electric ignition is very fast and eliminates mechanical components that contribute to weapon harmonic variations. I always thought that would appeal to the Benchrest folks, but they apparently didn't agree...

As to the original posting: what, exactly, do you envision the solenoid doing in the function of the action? If intended to accomplish locking/unlocking of a conventional breech mechanism, it would add weight and complexity, but it is not likely to speed-up self-loading mechanisms of conventional design, and doesn't appear readily adaptable to manually operated actions. In addition, if unlocking is a function of timing from trigger pull, that might contribute to potential danger from premature opening of the breech when a hangfire is encountered - even though most hangfires are of only milliseconds. Please outline your intended functional sequence, and how it might be applied to various breech mechanisms.

PRD1 - mhb - MIke
 
I should think that since - in fact - the secondary effect of firing a round is the unused force of the cartridge cycling the action that to insert a solenoid to cycle would be more than redundant in the average sporting arm.

Now, if one were to electronically time and unlock the bolt to allow the gasses to cycle on their own, one would eliminate the various abuses of geometry necessary to correctly mechanically time and unlock the bolt at the right instant.

Kind of some of the best of *blow-back* & *timed-delay*.

Relying upon the firearm to do this correctly always means transfers of force by gas and/or mechanical force often times on bizarrely varying planes and radii.

Todd.
 
Unless there is some demonstrable advantage to the functional efficiency of the firearm to be altered by addition/substitution of a solenoid, it would seem to be without merit. Modern self-loading firearms function very efficiently without introduction of electric/electronic components and the need for a power supply: the energy produced by the propellant is more than sufficient for operation of the mechanism; Q.E.D. I hope the original poster can clarify his intent and identify the advantage (if any) he supposes might be gained.

PRD1 - mhb - MIke
 
Wow I am really happy to see that we have some conversation going here because I have been thinking about this a lot lately.

To clarify, I reviewed my ideas and I think that I can only go so far in explaining what I had in mind without possibly drifting into the territory of demonstrating how to manufacture machine guns, and I am not sure that's allowed here.

The basic idea would be to have a simple locked breach (either a rotating or tilting bolt, or a roller lock design) which is in a bolt carrier group that is also integral to an electromagnet assembly. The assembly would contract and pull the bolt out of battery against spring force, eject the Shell, then return under spring force while pulling a subsequent cartridge out of the magazine and clambering it like a standard firearm. The sequence would occur electronically, and would not be based on cartridge case head pressure or combustion gasses. When the trigger is pulled, and button is pressed and either a conventional firing pin assembly would be released or an electronic system like the one from Remington (RIP) would ignight the primer. After a pre-set amount of time which would depend on the specific cartridge the solenoid bolt assembly would retract and unlock the bolt repeating the cycle. This timing would be accomplished by an onboard microcontroller.

After reading your posts I think that really there is only one advantage here.

Cost and simplicity:
This design can be thought of as an improvised firearm like the ones found in many third world countries, there are fewer machining operations and less metal needed to make complex mechanisms. These countries often have excess electronics available and constructing a simple timer or circuit of the like is not hard. The cost of the electronics involved are much less than the machining time needed so for a home shop or a small operation the manufacturing costs and time can be reduced. You could even take it a step further and apply thus to 3d printed guns and make things even cheaper and quicker. I have no basis in fact for this but I think you could make everything except the bolt head, barrel, and magnet stuff out of plastic because the upper receiver does not have to support the stress of a blowback or other mechanism since the rechambering could be delayed long enough for the chamber pressure to get to zero at the expense of rate of fire.

To sum up I thing this idea really only works in the context of "I have limited tools and money but I want a select for gun that isn't an open-bolt-fixed-firing-pin grease gun type" then i think this is a viable solution.

Someone will have to help clarify what is okay for me to post drawing and math wise from my design process with this stuff. I don't want to get in trouble legally or on the forum.
 
There have been various electronic triggers and firing systems out there (I would still like to find a Kricotronic), the recoil/gas cycling systems are just using what’s there already. If you went rotary that too could be done without electronics.

With proper mechanical design, they are almost always more reliable than adding in electronics.
 
If the niche or most likely use you foresee for your design is in what amounts to improvised firearms; there are plenty of simple, mechanical approaches to that end. As firearms construction will likely depend on the availability of suitable metals and the means of working them to produce the needed parts, and non-metallic (presumably, synthetic) materials have not generally approached the level of strength and durability required for firearms, it is difficult to foresee the circumstances in which your proposal would be viable. Super synthetics are not easily made, inexpensive or readily available, and electronics components and power sources are not likely to be readily had, either, in extreme circumstances. The real difficulty would always be ammunition supply.

PRD1 - mhb - MIke
 
Ten Mile Knives said:
Wow I am really happy to see that we have some conversation going here because I have been thinking about this a lot lately.

To clarify, I reviewed my ideas and I think that I can only go so far in explaining what I had in mind without possibly drifting into the territory of demonstrating how to manufacture machine guns, and I am not sure that's allowed here.

The basic idea would be to have a simple locked breach (either a rotating or tilting bolt, or a roller lock design) which is in a bolt carrier group that is also integral to an electromagnet assembly. The assembly would contract and pull the bolt out of battery against spring force, eject the Shell, then return under spring force while pulling a subsequent cartridge out of the magazine and clambering it like a standard firearm. The sequence would occur electronically, and would not be based on cartridge case head pressure or combustion gasses. When the trigger is pulled, and button is pressed and either a conventional firing pin assembly would be released or an electronic system like the one from Remington (RIP) would ignight the primer. After a pre-set amount of time which would depend on the specific cartridge the solenoid bolt assembly would retract and unlock the bolt repeating the cycle. This timing would be accomplished by an onboard microcontroller.

After reading your posts I think that really there is only one advantage here.

Cost and simplicity:
This design can be thought of as an improvised firearm like the ones found in many third world countries, there are fewer machining operations and less metal needed to make complex mechanisms. These countries often have excess electronics available and constructing a simple timer or circuit of the like is not hard. The cost of the electronics involved are much less than the machining time needed so for a home shop or a small operation the manufacturing costs and time can be reduced. You could even take it a step further and apply thus to 3d printed guns and make things even cheaper and quicker. I have no basis in fact for this but I think you could make everything except the bolt head, barrel, and magnet stuff out of plastic because the upper receiver does not have to support the stress of a blowback or other mechanism since the rechambering could be delayed long enough for the chamber pressure to get to zero at the expense of rate of fire.

To sum up I thing this idea really only works in the context of "I have limited tools and money but I want a select for gun that isn't an open-bolt-fixed-firing-pin grease gun type" then i think this is a viable solution.

Someone will have to help clarify what is okay for me to post drawing and math wise from my design process with this stuff. I don't want to get in trouble legally or on the forum.
Click to expand...
I'm thinking maybe even simpler like a Savage straight-pull released by electricity.

Keeping all movement inline and central to the bore and the locking being 3 or 4 balls moving exactly perpendicular to the bore axis.

Staying away from rotation/lugs altogether.

Ultimately so low-draw that a piezo base and internally-sourced (from cycling) electricity running a capacitor.

Todd.
 
Unless you can see an advantage to a full locked (like bolt action) breech, it seems that letting the recoil or gas generated by the cartridge firing go to waste would be...well, wasteful.

In a 1911, for instance, using the recoil to unlock and cycle the action significantly reduces felt recoil, and it's 'free' energy-it would go to waste otherwise.

You'd also need at least TWO actuators, if I'm reading this right; one to unlock the action, and a second cycle the action and chamber the next round. And meanwhile, all that recoil energy would be going to waste, into the shooter's shoulder or hand.

I'd have to see lots of upsides I can't quite picture to think this would be worth the change.

Larry
 
I drew up a CAD model of the idea in a more advanced rifle pattern that I already had mostly drawn.

I see this being something that is easier to manufacture at home, the majority of components would get printed or made some other simple way, and the bolt would need to be purchased or manufactured somewhere, if shotgun shells were used then a barrel could be made from more crude stock metal tubing. I still maintain that this could be an all plastic gun except for the barrel and bolt head because the action does not need to support the high speeds and forces or a normal weapon cycle. The rate of fire and pressure would be less and more controlled so there would also be no more fowling in the action that a standard bolt action.

The Imgur post describes what's going on.

I actually came up with an even more simple idea that uses electronics to reduce the manufacturing difficulties and it might even use less power to operate. I will draw that idea up as well and show you all when I am done.

https://imgur.com/a/1Q9GE3Q
 
Sadly, I see advances in the trigger/sear aspect as being a major step to mandating biometric firearms which I can never get behind for any reason.

As far as the bolt is concerned; why not stop at the timed unlocking and let the gases do the rest?

Todd.
 
ApacheCoTodd said:
Sadly, I see advances in the trigger/sear aspect as being a major step to mandating biometric firearms which I can never get behind for any reason.

As far as the bolt is concerned; why not stop at the timed unlocking and let the gases do the rest?

Todd.
Click to expand...

Funny you should mention just timing the unlock because that's where the drawings I posted come from. The original gun I designed uses a spring loaded weight which is released at the same time as the striker to delay the unlocking by the "flight" time of the weight. the spring then acts on the lock releasing it at a safe pressure essentially allowing any cartridge o function in a blowback action. If there is more interest in that design then I am happy to post some of my drawing on it. Ian McCollum from Forgotten weapons is looking at that idea right now to give me some input on it.
 
Keeping all movement inline and central to the bore and the locking being 3 or 4 balls moving exactly perpendicular to the bore axis.

Staying away from rotation/lugs altogether.
Click to expand...

You don’t need electronics to do that, just use a collet style locking device like the Blazer R8 action.



Much stronger than a couple of ball bearings.

C7A9564B-8505-4639-880D-08AE40E1538F.jpeg
 
Hmm so what I am getting from this is that this idea for using non-mechanical means to cycle and/or lock and or/fire a gun has very limited practical application due to the already exceedingly good completely mechanical firearm designs. The idea looks like it would only have practical applications in places which have access to some modern technologies like electronic parts or 3d printers, but no access to firearms or high quality machine tools. I think at risk of looking like an "extremist arming the populous with ghost guns" I will drop the topic and continue thinking about it in my own quiet corner. Thank you everyone for you responses!
 
I think it's a good idea to try some new ideas. Based on firearms development history, the chances of success are small. What we have today works pretty good, which makes the chances even smaller. And so there's been little discussion and indifferent enthusiasm. But good luck with good ideas. I'm all for trying them.

Recent thread here on firearms innovation: https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/innovation.877868/
 
My first thought was the mandatory use of biometrics to be matched to a specific shooter. Then the energy and force used to run such a system would preclude handheld individual use. As a system in a vehicle yes but carrying around batteries wires and one or more solenoids that would be strong enough to do the job would weigh many more times a conventional mecanical system would weigh. Add reliability issues and it's a non starter fo the average user.
 
A solenoid is very heavy per the energy output. Also the problem of a power source. I doubt very much a cased cartridge w impact primer ignition will be improved upon.
 
I think its an interesting idea. Looking at the sketch, it looks like you're using something like a roller delay system. Is the solenoid overcoming the rollers? Or is there a positive lock that is being mechanically pulled out of battery. In any event, I think the positive of this system would be being able to run a wide range of loads, from subsonic suppressed, to high pressure/high velocity without having to fiddle with a gas block. In fact, a system like this would be able to fire non standard (read "rifle grenades") at the flip of a switch. Question would be could you get enough juice out of a piezo and capacitor arrangement to ditch the battery. Granted, that all can be done with an adjustable gas block, but that does require some fine machine work.
 
Sure lets put solenoids, capacitors, and/or batteries and generators in the gun. Then, of course, we need a board to monitor and control it for safety and access vetting. Then lets give it Bluetooth and Web connectivity so usage and location can be tracked and have automatic OTA- updates to the software. Why, we could even shut it down remotely if theft or misuse is detected- or the owner doesn't keep up on their service subscription fees.....:scrutiny:

No thanks.
 
NIGHTLORD40K said:
Sure lets put solenoids, capacitors, and/or batteries and generators in the gun. Then, of course, we need a board to monitor and control it for safety and access vetting. Then lets give it Bluetooth and Web connectivity so usage and location can be tracked and have automatic OTA- updates to the software. Why, we could even shut it down remotely if theft or misuse is detected- or the owner doesn't keep up on their service subscription fees.....:scrutiny:

No thanks.
Click to expand...
Oh hell yes!

As soon as my gun can communicate with *On Star* and my LG refrigerator.... I'm signing straight up!:evil:

I can't wait for the day when Zuckerberg or his clone can remotely red-flag my gun directly because I said something mean to one of his franchised groups.

Hell, I can't even be talked into optics with batteries without an exceptionally compelling argument other than convenience or simplicity.

I think I'm gonna make a mount for my carbide lamps and get rid of the flashlights too.

In all seriousness.... Sometimes folk at the precipice of a *slippery slope* are so taken by the view that they ignore the dangers.

Todd.
 
The only real advantage I could see with an electronic fire control system would be easily programmable and controllable firing modes....and perhaps cheap microswitch / microgram weight triggers....
Thats really all the differentiated the early electro paintball markers from their mechanical brethren....even in semi getting a firing rate in the 15+CPS range with a double trigger wasn't hard for the average new player, with a little experience and some practice getting cps into the 20s wasn't unheard of.....but then again if your running along bump firing your paintball gun at every step worst you get is a DQ....do that with a cartridge arm and you'll have some larger issues.......

I've always kinda wanted to build a pneumatic assist pump action AR....but again more because I like the idea than because its useful etc....I like the idea of an elector magnetic cartridge loading and ignition system for the same reason.....
 
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