The state of handgun RDS....

My sight has been on for just over a year at this point. During a typical year I will put 5000 rounds if not more through a firearm. But with things as they are, that is not feasible for me. That being said it still turns on everytime I pick it up. Model is Holosun 507c

2 Burris , 3 Trijicon’s, 1 Adco and 1 C-more . No failures or problems . My Glock has a Burris Fastfire 3 . The Burris is the same width as the Glock slide . I will buy a Fastfire 4 when they become available.

I have an Aimpoint ACRO P-1, on a specifically-milled slide, chosen specifically for reports of durability, if not the best battery life, but the pandemic has interrupted our visits to shooting ranges, so, who knows when I will complete a proper vetting. (We can shoot on remote parcels of land, but the owners do not want to be finding brass in the grass, and would rather that we not leave too much lead in the soil.) I selected “Has not yet died but I have less than 5K rounds on it.”

I will add that another reason I chose the Aimpoint ACRO P-1 because one user reported that his ACRO aggravated his astgmatism less than some other red dot sights. I confirmed this, for my eyes, with my first one, so bought a second ACRO P-1, which is not yet mounted on anything.

I’m still not certain why an RDS is superior to a laser such as a Crimson Trace. It makes the pistol bulkier and requires removal of the rear iron sight. I don’t mean to hijack the thread, but the explosion in popularity of the RDS makes me wonder if I’m missing something.
I’ll have to make it a point to try one out soon.

I wrote about my experience with a Holosun HE509T on an M&P 5" 2.0 in another thread.

The first 509 survived a mount failure, release from the slide under recoil, struck my head, bounced off and flew through the air for 12 feet, struck a sheetrock wall, and dropped 6 feet to bare concrete. The RDS didn't miss a beat.

Lineman65 said:

I’m still not certain why an RDS is superior to a laser such as a Crimson Trace. It makes the pistol bulkier and requires removal of the rear iron sight.

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RDS is a new experience for me; I am in my first few weeks of RDS on my M&P9 2.0. On the advice of a local gunsmith I had the slide milled and RDS installed directly, instead of using a dovetail-affixed RDS plate. Then the milling machine shop recommended replacing both front and rear iron sights with taller suppressor-height sights. The result: both RDS and co-witnessing iron sights as backup. No need to do without a rear sight.*
As for RDS vs. laser: I have Crimson Trace on two of my revolvers. From prior range experience with the lasers, and recent practice with the RDS, I will say the eye adjustment is much easier to keep focus on the target as I bring the red dot into position than it had been to put the laser dot on target. In addition, at distance the laser dot illuminating the target really shows the wobble more than the RDS dot in the sight frame.
Finally, I have found several RDS lessons on Active Self Protection Extra very helpful:
Are Pistol Red Dot Sights Worth It?
Red Dot Pistols: Theory of Use
Red Dot Sight Class with Scott Jedlinski: A Day of learning!

* But these mods required a new holster, set to accept both the RDS and the suppressor-height sights. Either mod makes off-the-shelf holsters no longer fit.

Craig

Lineman65 said:

I’m still not certain why an RDS is superior to a laser such as a Crimson Trace. It makes the pistol bulkier and requires removal of the rear iron sight. I don’t mean to hijack the thread, but the explosion in popularity of the RDS makes me wonder if I’m missing something.
I’ll have to make it a point to try one out soon.

Click to expand...

Lasers are very slow. Only handy in the most limited scenarios. I'd only use an IR laser with night vision.

Frame mounted RMR's are the way to go. But for competition, that bumps you up to ''Open'' division. It's nice being in front of the ejection. No more dented up optics, and beveled out ejection ports.

My open pistols have Cmore’s on them. They eat the 1/3N battery like a fat kid eats candy but both have a lot more than 5k rounds fired under them.

I have used a Jpoint on a few, I did break it once but that was on a rifle and a “mechanical failure” or I broke it, banging it into something. They did send me a new one though and didn’t even charge me.

I also have a Trijicon that’s likely pretty close to 5k by now. I like the dot adjustment on it better than the others but not much of an issue if you are not always moving them around to different pistols.

I did get a no name Chinese dot on a pistol I bought, the dot is huge and it won’t hold a zero on anything over .22 Lr.

Lineman65 said:

I’m still not certain why an RDS is superior to a laser such as a Crimson Trace. It makes the pistol bulkier and requires removal of the rear iron sight. I don’t mean to hijack the thread, but the explosion in popularity of the RDS makes me wonder if I’m missing something.
I’ll have to make it a point to try one out soon.

Click to expand...

I’m not a fan of dovetail mounts . To each there own . Pro’s and con’s . But all optics ready pistols have rear sights . Not a fan of optics ready pistols either (pro’s and con’s as well ) . This is not an optics ready Glock .I put red dots on everything , mounting a variety of ways .

Lineman65 said:

I’m still not certain why an RDS is superior to a laser such as a Crimson Trace. It makes the pistol bulkier and requires removal of the rear iron sight. I don’t mean to hijack the thread, but the explosion in popularity of the RDS makes me wonder if I’m missing something.
I’ll have to make it a point to try one out soon.

Click to expand...

First, I will state that I am not a laser-hater.

My milled slide has a rear sight nicely situated in front of the optic.

An RDS does not add width. Some Crimson Trace grips add much width.

When using inside-the-trousers holsters, bulk added to the accessory rail can be undesirable, for some users. (Some lasers mount on the rail.)

Some users will have a preference for a specific weapon-mounted light, that may not play well with lasers.

Some users may be mandated to use specific holsters, which may not play well with lasers.

Some users may have to live with anti-laser rules, while being allowed to use an RDS. Had I not retired, in early 2018, I would, today, be able to use an RDS, but not a laser, on any weapon I carried for defense of self or others, 24/7. I worked for a PD that expected us to abide by firearms policy, during personal time. RDS optics were allowed after I retired. Lasers are, AFAIK, still forbidden. It is good to now be free to choose. (I do plan to try a specific, high-quality green laser, soon, on a defensive long gun.)

This is what comes to mind, before Second Coffee.

Zerodefect said:

Lasers are very slow. Only handy in the most limited scenarios. I'd only use an IR laser with night vision.

Frame mounted RMR's are the way to go. But for competition, that bumps you up to ''Open'' division. It's nice being in front of the ejection. No more dented up optics, and beveled out ejection ports.

Click to expand...

Could I please get some info or a link on that mount ? Thank you

Red dots allow me, and others, to shoot at all. Even with good glasses, as we get older, eyes go bad.

Even for young fit terrific shooters, red dots are just cheating. MUCH faster and more accurately, always.

Iron sights on pistols as they are today are a relatively new development. Within my lifetime we've had several evolutions, and not much before that gold beads and maybe a little notch were the standard. Technology always improves, so be aware what your bias is, and consider if it's legit or just being used to stuff

As stated, no real downsides. I have RDS on both of my regular carry guns. Somewhere I have a useful photo of both together but this is the small one:


No wider than the slide. Irons retained. One of them uses the factory irons (okay, technically the other has "factory" irons but that's because it came with extra high RDS sights!).

I literally do not notice the dot when carrying. A tiny gun, IWB. Never noticed. Depending on the day, is just above or inside the waistband, rides like the gun, no problem. There's a gap there so it doesn't get stressed.

I use J-Point for both because small, light, long-term use by many folks (on top of ACOGs, etc) and the dot works with my bad eyes. I have never changed a battery yet after a couple years, a lot of shooting (on one... the other is like 4 months old only), and plenty of carry that involves sweat, rain, cold, heat, etc.

No zero issues. I used a $20 used Millet with a bad dovetail mount to validate it would work on the Kahr. Lower quality, eBay from China mount, very tall and chunky. Still a snap to carry, and when I (frequently) changed the batteries I never lost zero! The lowest-quality is perfectly usable, the best is world beating.

Red dot vs laser? Red dot is emissions-free. It's on the gun, so brightness is dependent on gun optics not surfaces. No one can tell you are aiming. No one can see where you are from dust, fog, smoke, etc (in the "tracers work both ways" mode), etc. Lasers are fine, but something else entirely.

It. Is. A. New. System. You need to get used to it. You will think it's not working because the dot doesn't appear automatically on draw. Guess what? That's you, not the gun! The RDS shows off your flaws but that is good, and will help you be a better shooter, to miss less; if there's no dot, you aren't going to hit, so you can't fool yourself.

I went so far as to practice for around 6 months with a SIRT with a (very cheap, chinese clone) RMR to get used to it. Still have it on my desk (at home!) and use it every... oh, few weeks. Should be daily, but I get lazy.

Rexster said:

First, I will state that I am not a laser-hater.

My milled slide has a rear sight nicely situated in front of the optic.

An RDS does not add width. Some Crimson Trace grips add much width.

When using inside-the-trousers holsters, bulk added to the accessory rail can be undesirable, for some users. (Some lasers mount on the rail.)

Some users will have a preference for a specific weapon-mounted light, that may not play well with lasers.

Some users may be mandated to use specific holsters, which may not play well with lasers.

Some users may have to live with anti-laser rules, while being allowed to use an RDS. Had I not retired, in early 2018, I would, today, be able to use an RDS, but not a laser, on any weapon I carried for defense of self or others, 24/7. I worked for a PD that expected us to abide by firearms policy, during personal time. RDS optics were allowed after I retired. Lasers are, AFAIK, still forbidden. It is good to now be free to choose. (I do plan to try a specific, high-quality green laser, soon, on a defensive long gun.)

This is what comes to mind, before Second Coffee.

Click to expand...

Thanks, that’s a lot of food for thought. I never realized that laser sights were forbidden for police use. My wife has a JFrame with a CT mounted that she loves. I find it works pretty well too. At self-defense ranges at least.

shoobe01 said:

Red dots allow me, and others, to shoot at all. Even with good glasses, as we get older, eyes go bad.

Even for young fit terrific shooters, red dots are just cheating. MUCH faster and more accurately, always.

Iron sights on pistols as they are today are a relatively new development. Within my lifetime we've had several evolutions, and not much before that gold beads and maybe a little notch were the standard. Technology always improves, so be aware what your bias is, and consider if it's legit or just being used to stuff

As stated, no real downsides. I have RDS on both of my regular carry guns. Somewhere I have a useful photo of both together but this is the small one:
View attachment 981302

No wider than the slide. Irons retained. One of them uses the factory irons (okay, technically the other has "factory" irons but that's because it came with extra high RDS sights!).

I literally do not notice the dot when carrying. A tiny gun, IWB. Never noticed. Depending on the day, is just above or inside the waistband, rides like the gun, no problem. There's a gap there so it doesn't get stressed.

I use J-Point for both because small, light, long-term use by many folks (on top of ACOGs, etc) and the dot works with my bad eyes. I have never changed a battery yet after a couple years, a lot of shooting (on one... the other is like 4 months old only), and plenty of carry that involves sweat, rain, cold, heat, etc.

No zero issues. I used a $20 used Millet with a bad dovetail mount to validate it would work on the Kahr. Lower quality, eBay from China mount, very tall and chunky. Still a snap to carry, and when I (frequently) changed the batteries I never lost zero! The lowest-quality is perfectly usable, the best is world beating.

Red dot vs laser? Red dot is emissions-free. It's on the gun, so brightness is dependent on gun optics not surfaces. No one can tell you are aiming. No one can see where you are from dust, fog, smoke, etc (in the "tracers work both ways" mode), etc. Lasers are fine, but something else entirely.

It. Is. A. New. System. You need to get used to it. You will think it's not working because the dot doesn't appear automatically on draw. Guess what? That's you, not the gun! The RDS shows off your flaws but that is good, and will help you be a better shooter, to miss less; if there's no dot, you aren't going to hit, so you can't fool yourself.

I went so far as to practice for around 6 months with a SIRT with a (very cheap, chinese clone) RMR to get used to it. Still have it on my desk (at home!) and use it every... oh, few weeks. Should be daily, but I get lazy.

Click to expand...

Thanks. I’ll definitely have to give them a try.

I have only one; a SIG Romeo on a full-size P-320. It's been excellent. But only a couple thousand rounds through this one. Big learning curve for someone who's used only iron sights for more'n 40 years...

Lineman65 said:

I never realized that laser sights were forbidden for police use

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Not everywhere. But most find them pretty useless for general law enforcement use. Our TASERs have 'em, and a smattering of other less-lethal devices.

Old Dog said:

... Not everywhere. But most find them pretty useless for general law enforcement use. Our TASERs have 'em, and a smattering of other less-lethal devices.

Click to expand...

They are not generally like forbidden by law, but have often moved by policy to being discouraged or verboten due to the thing where Tasers have them. Theory being everyone in the agency (or all agencies in the whole county if they share procedures, etc) knows laser=taser (or... less lethal generally if other systems and they but viz lasers on those devices). Then when there's a loud noise from firing one, the theory is even less sympathetic fire than just assuming everyone heard the audible for taser deployment.

And generally past their heyday for police use for other stuff having to do with reflectivity, not working well at long ranges or during the day, the thing about compliance from the threat being lower and much less consistent than expected, etc.

The first RDS I used was a Burris Fast Fire II mounted on a 1911 slide site mount. It was beat to death twice, Burris said they wouldn’t replace it a third time. The second was an Ultradot mounted on a Buckmark 22lr, and it is still running years later. The third was a slide mounted Vortex on a site mount that needed to be replaced in a few hundred rounds, that got moved to a PCC. Currently I’m using a slide mounted Holosun on a site mount that seems pretty solid, but the mount screws keep working loose, even with lock tite. My next step is to get the slide milled.

I only have 1 true micro red dot intended for pistol use. It has been on a bunch of my guns. It was bought to live on top of a S&W model 10 and it did for a while. I need to finish that project and put it back on that gun. Currently it’s on a contender barrel but it will not stay there. It’s been on a thumper 12ga, a few different ARs, and nothing has phased it. It’s a cheapo ADE and I legitimately like it but the on/off button is a handicap. The prices have risen on them to a point where I don’t really thing they make sense anymore.

a2x4bbl said:

Could I please get some info or a link on that mount ? Thank you

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https://stores.sjcguns.com/sjc-micro-dot-mount-for-glocks/

Regarding LE entities not allowing officers to use lasers, one of the better explanations I have heard, is that in situations involving multiple officers, an officer will not be able to know which dot, on or near the targeted person, corresponds to which weapon. I really cannot argue against that one, as I have to agree, as I saw it happen with Tasers. It is not like a movie, in which each laser’s beam is visible. An individual private citizen is less likely to encounter a situation in which there will be multiple weapon-mounted lasers.

Lineman65 said:

I’m still not certain why an RDS is superior to a laser such as a Crimson Trace.

Click to expand...

Superior is in the eye of the beholder.
Having an RDS or RMR puts the sight (mostly) where many of us 'expect' a pistol sight to be. And, you 'tune' the dot to the user's preference in a "right there" sort of way.

From my experience, lasers dance around. And a lot. Which is from the eye focusing on the dot and not the weapon hold, so it moves. And, every perfectly natural motion from one's hold is magnified--which can make "chasing" the dot even worse. There's also the deal where the appearance of the dot varies based on the distance to target. Not based on what is most comfortable for the shooter.