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tark
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You're right , they're different. That difference is almost microscopically small, but different is different !
7.62X25 vs 7.63 Mauser. Which one is loaded to higher pressures?
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jonnyc
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CIP sets specs and manufacturers produce the rounds. Therein lies your variation between Mauser and Tokarev rounds. And how did CIP set those specs? The measured existing examples of chambers and ammunition, and standardized them over time...not at one single point in time. US-made rounds are loaded to reduced pressures and there is no documentation...anywhere...to show that any producer of 7.62 Tokarev ammo differentiated production between pistol and SMG ammo. Those are facts...do what you will with them. Test German military 7.63 Mauser against Russian/Soviet 7.62 Tokarev and you will find no appreciable differences.
My "credibility" is not the question here...research the facts, not idle internet supposition.
My "credibility" is not the question here...research the facts, not idle internet supposition.
Carl N. Brown
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WWII German military 7.63 Mauser and Soviet 7.62x25mm were roughly equivalent in velocity and bullet weight. The Finns used Soviet PPSh41 SMGs with German ammo with no complaints.
Remington .30 Mauser pistol and Fiocchi 7.63 Mauser pistol are a step lower in pressure (I suspect out of consideration of the condition of the average antique pistol shooting 7.63 Mauser.)
I suspect that Czech M48 military and S&B commercial ammo gets higher velocity from slower burning powder and longer barrels and not from higher pressure.
The only documented SMG special ammo I have found is the Italian M38 9mm for the Beretta 1938
Remington .30 Mauser pistol and Fiocchi 7.63 Mauser pistol are a step lower in pressure (I suspect out of consideration of the condition of the average antique pistol shooting 7.63 Mauser.)
I suspect that Czech M48 military and S&B commercial ammo gets higher velocity from slower burning powder and longer barrels and not from higher pressure.
The only documented SMG special ammo I have found is the Italian M38 9mm for the Beretta 1938
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tark
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Your last sentence may be quite true, but the Germans loaded the Mauser ammo to almost 200 FPS higher than the Soviet round. My source for this is "Small Arms of the World" by Smith and Smith. It lists the German loading at 1575 FPS, with the Soviet round coming in at 1390, both with the 85gr bullet. That doesn't necessarily mean the German loading had higher pressures, it may have been the result of better powders. But even if higher pressures were at play, the PPSh41 is such a strong and robust gun that it would have had no problems with a little extra pressure.
jonnyc
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Not to mention that it also throws the belief that Tokarev ammo is "much hotter" than Mauser ammo into the toilet.
.455_Hunter
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jonnyc- What would have been the standard ballistics of the following rounds at the time indicated:
7.63mm Mauser in Churchill's C96 at Omdurman in 1898.
7.62mm Tokarev in Soviet production in 1943.
7.62mm post-war Czech in 1953.
7.63mm Mauser in Churchill's C96 at Omdurman in 1898.
7.62mm Tokarev in Soviet production in 1943.
7.62mm post-war Czech in 1953.
barnetmill
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Smith may have stated that, but I want to know how he determined that factoid. Especially for the mauser loading.
Here are velocities for modern ammo for 7.62x25. The wolf ammo likely of russian manufacture is the lowest. Wolf is not known for loading ammo hot.
Source
I know of no sources for WWII ammo velocities for either 7.62 or 7.63 x25 loadings.
For fiocchi factory in a C-96 pistol 7.63x25 was about 430m/sec or 1410.76 ft/sec that is the same as the wolf 7.62x25.
Source
barnetmill
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The difference on paper is maybe slightly more different then between 5.56 & 7.62 Nato vs .223 & .308. Nominally the mauser and tokarev barrel groove and land diameters are said to vary. They usually will interchange, but not always.
DocRock
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I can’t speak to the issue under debate but thanks for this thread. Never realized how hot these cartridges were. Glad to learn something new.
fxvr5
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Here's another source of info on Tokarev ammo velocities of current loads;
https://www.shootingtimes.com/editorial/converting-a-1911-to-7-62x25-tokarev/99440
https://www.shootingtimes.com/editorial/converting-a-1911-to-7-62x25-tokarev/99440
barnetmill
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He used a longer barrel of about 6 inches that gives a little more velocity
barnetmill
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For many years the mauser 7.63 C-96 was velocity champion for pistol rounds. For killing under military combat conditions it gained a following with the bolsheviks and a nickname was the bolo mauser for the version used by the communists during their civil war. Has sufficient penetration for heavy winter clothing and it will readily penetrate a horses head. Horses were in general use in combat up through WWII in that part of the world.
I would like to see ruger chamber their 5.7 pistol in 7.62x25. It might require a minor modification relative to barrel lockup. For many the attraction to the 7.62x25 was inexpensive surplus pistols and ammo. The ammo is no longer cheap. Also the lack of a good external safety on most T33 pistols was a turn off for concealed carry. For it power range the T33 is the thinnest pistol out there.
A newly designed pistol in 7.62x25 would be welcomed at least by me if not by many others.
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tark
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Well, he's long dead so we can't ask him. The book was published in 1966.
barnetmill
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A good author will reference his sources when possible.
From reading the various posts here it seems often that 7.63 mauser was used in tokarev chambered weapons by the germans and finns, primarily in submachine guns.
I think if I had an old mauser pistol I would first see if I can get new springs. If I were to shoot 7.62 tokarev, I would op out for the lower velocity loadings and choose brass case ammo that likely is easier on extractors.
Remember these are very old guns that may have been through a lot. The yugo PPU I believe is brass and a little slower than S&B. I would likely spend some time on a forum dedicated to the C96 and ask what they know on the subject also.
https://www.cmrfirearms.com/pistols...user-pistol-parts-spring-packref01-p-309.html
BROOMHANDLE MAUSER C96 PISTOL PARTS Spring Pack.Ref.#01
$39.50
MAUSER 1896/1912, 7.63mm & 9mm
SERVICE PAK Includes: Broomhandle, Bolo, & Military Models.
- RECOIL SPRING restores original factory spring specifications and function to pistol.
- FIRING PIN SPRING (which requires fitting to the firing pin).
- MAIN SPRING
- 1 PACK CONTAINING 3 X SPRINGS.
Important Note: Springs weaken suffer from metal fatigue and should be replaced
at least once every 10 years or sooner depending on the frequency of use.
Failing to comply could result in irreparable damage to your pistol and danger
to the user. i.e sheered Bolt Stop (caused by weak recoil spring).
CURRENTLY OUT OF STOCK - NOT AVAILABLE AGAIN UNTIL APRIL 2021
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tark
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^^ Words of wisdom. I have two C-96s, my shooter and my 99% gun. The latter will never be shot (at least by me ) and the former had new Wolff springs in it before I ever fired a shot.
riverats
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Count me in on a 7.62 Tok-chambered Ruger offering ... until then, Zastava’s current production M57A, its’ hammer-block safety notwithstanding, is anything but newly designed, but with the slide-mounted safety, does make for a safe & reliable, 9+1 full-size carry piece.
barnetmill
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If the safety is good on that gun. I would maybe saw off the mag well a little shorter and get some super thin grips for it. It would make a very nice concealable carry gun. The main thing is that it have a hammer block safety and not just the 1/4 cock safety of the T33.
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tark
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Interesting warning on the Wolff Spring package, about a weak recoil spring possibly resulting in a "Sheared bolt stop." Considering that the bolt stop is probably hardened steel surrounded (as in amply supported) by softer steel of the barrel extension ...as well as being held in place by the firing pin which passes through it.....It would seem that "Shearing" the bolt stop is a near impossibility. This can be seen in the pics. And the bolt stop can only be removed from the gun by withdrawing it from the right side of the gun. There is no way for it to come out the rear of the gun.
I have seen a picture damaged C-96 where the rear of the barrel extension was cracked and deformed. The pistol was damaged beyond repair but the bolt stop itself appeared undamaged. It seems to me that extensive firing with a weak recoil spring can wreck the pistol, but not in the sense of putting the shooter in danger.
I have seen a picture damaged C-96 where the rear of the barrel extension was cracked and deformed. The pistol was damaged beyond repair but the bolt stop itself appeared undamaged. It seems to me that extensive firing with a weak recoil spring can wreck the pistol, but not in the sense of putting the shooter in danger.
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riverats
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The safety & I suppose metallurgical advances are what set the M57A apart from eastern-bloc, mil-surp variants. In addition to aftermarket, ergonomic-friendlier grips - razorgrips.com - there are also many IWB/OWB holster options available.
The first thing I did after unboxing the 57A was to remove the mag safety & then followed that up with a polishing of the trigger (rails?) & receiver channels they ride in. Did that to the mil-surpToks & it really smooths the trigger pull.
M57A review:
jonnyc
Member
Coincidentally, a good friend in Germany is currently working on a project to document just this info. I'll try to post/publish his info when completed.
BTW, very good chance that Winnie's 7.63 Mauser ammo was produced in England (Kynoch and Eley), so that throws another variable into the stew.
barnetmill
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Google claims that the m57 is drop safe since the firing pin is blocked.
Pricing seems high for a tokarev, but that may be due to the current panic https://dkfirearms.com/product/zastava-arms-m57a-7-62x25-tokarev/
$385.00 – $485.00 Zastava Arms M57A 7.62×25 Tokarev Blued or Chrome Finish
MachIVshooter
Member
In the end, we can debate which round was hotter at a given time or from a certain manufacturer until we're blue in the face, but the fact remains that the newest C96 pistols made will be pushing a century old, with the metallurgy of the time and all those years of wear and tear on it, so it would be wise to stick to lower pressure commercial ammo or handloads.
Besides, all the cheap 7.62 Tok ammo is long gone anyway, so there's really no reason not to use fresh stuff that will be easier on the old warhorse.
In general, it's wise to be conservative with pressures in old guns. I don't push max loads for my antique and turn-of-the-century Marlins, for my Remington 8, 14, 25, the Colt Police Positive, the hundred + year old milsurps, etc. Just no good reason to. If you want to hot rod your ammo, buy a modern firearm with modern steels that can positively handle it and doesn't have an unknown & possibly questionable history of use & abuse.
If it's the Tok rounds you want to drive at screamin' velocities, grab a TT33. Even if it blows up, it's a cheap com block gun, not a collectible 4-figure Mauser.
Besides, all the cheap 7.62 Tok ammo is long gone anyway, so there's really no reason not to use fresh stuff that will be easier on the old warhorse.
In general, it's wise to be conservative with pressures in old guns. I don't push max loads for my antique and turn-of-the-century Marlins, for my Remington 8, 14, 25, the Colt Police Positive, the hundred + year old milsurps, etc. Just no good reason to. If you want to hot rod your ammo, buy a modern firearm with modern steels that can positively handle it and doesn't have an unknown & possibly questionable history of use & abuse.
If it's the Tok rounds you want to drive at screamin' velocities, grab a TT33. Even if it blows up, it's a cheap com block gun, not a collectible 4-figure Mauser.
barnetmill
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Yes you are right. But do not be surprised if your children some day end up paying 4 figures for a T33. I can remember seeing C96 guns in the late 50's and early 60's at under $40 mail order in the back of magazines like field and stream. Those days are long gone and maybe will be in the future for the T33. Enfield rifles were selling for about $15 dollars too at one time.
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