Can Browning's Masterpiece Be Surpassed?

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The new operating system I'm proposing addresses those limitations. Just imagine a lightweight 10mm handgun that shoots like a 9mm. Or a lightweight 9mm handgun that shoots like a .22lr.
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Proposing: Putting forward (an idea or plan) for consideration or discussion by others.

Dissipating recoil so the shooter feels less of it would definitely be a good thing. So, propose away. I think folks will be happy to consider and discuss this new operating system.
 
ACIinventor said:
It was likely the last handgun design Browning worked on before his death. We can see some of the incremental improvements in the Browning hi-power. The external extractor obviously comes to my mind. But the operating system of the hi-power remained basically the same. There really wasn't a need for another operating system at that time. The Browning system was more than capable of handling the predominant cartridges of the day. And continued to do so for many years. I've never had a hi-power either but I've studied it quite often. Reading history, particularly regarding the World Wars, many soldiers praised the hi-power.
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The HP-35, as originally made, did not have an external extractor.

ZJyXs4JDb3i9zUfOa9JpmkNneBb6f9kmY_F0nMpzs4XiIckuiapnmsYRf0B4jcTOU4yIidTDU9V3936w5se7RwgYetPlr6cc.jpg

ACIinventor said:
The BHP and 1911 still share the same operating system.
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Not really, the there is quite a difference between the behavior of the link versus the cam.
 
Tirod said:
It is. In point of fact when designing it Browning had to work around all the patents he sold to Colt in order to prevent infringement.
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Actually, Browning retained all patents except those he sold to the US Government for a nominal fee. He licensed his M1911 patents in North America to Colt and to FN in Europe.

This is why when the Norwegians decided to make M1911s domestically, they had to get licensing from FN.

And, the HP does use some of the patents developed for the M1911, most notably the magazine release and extractor, but in any case, all of Browning's 1911 Patents were Public domain by 1918.
 
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ontarget said:
This is blasphemy!! Sir, I demand you take it back immediately!!:neener:
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Indeed.


Genesis 19-11

1. In the beginning there was the 1911, and it was good. And behold the Lord said, thou shalt not muck with my disciple John's design for it is good and it workith. For John made the 1911, and lo all of his weapons, from the designs which I, the Lord, gave him upon the mountain.

2. And shouldst thou muck with it, and hang all manner of foul implements upon it, and profane its internal parts, thou shalt surely have malfunctions, and in the midst of battle thou shalt surely come to harm.

3. And as the ages passed men in their ignorance and arrogance didst forget the word of the Lord and began to profane the 1911. The tribe of the gamesman did place recoil spring guides and extended slide releases upon the 1911 and their metal smiths didst tighten the tolerances and alter parts to their liking, their clearness of mind being clouded by lust.

4. Their artisans did hang all manner of foul implements upon the 1911 and did so alter it that it became impractical to purchase. For lo, the artisans didst charge a great tax upon the purchasers of the 1911 so that the lowly field worker could not afford one. And the profaning of the internal parts didst render it unworkable when the dust of the land fell upon it.

5. And lo, they didst install adjustable sights, which are an abomination unto the Lord. For they doth break and lose their zero when thou dost need true aim. And those who have done so will be slain in great numbers by their enemies in the great battle.

6. And it came to pass that the Lord didst see the abomination wrought by man and didst cause, as he had warned, fearful malfunctions to come upon the abominations and upon the artisans who thought they could do no wrong.

7. Seeing the malfunctions and the confusion of men, the lord of the underworld did see an opportunity to further ensnare man and didst bring forth pistols made of plastic, whose form was such that they looked and felt like a brick, yet the eyes of man being clouded, they were consumed by the plastic pistol and did buy vast quantities of them.

8. And being a deceitful spirit the lord of the underworld did make these plastic pistols unamenable to the artisans of earth and they were unable to muck much with the design, and lo these pistols did appear to function.

9. And the evil one also brought forth pistols in which the trigger didst both cock and fire them and which require a "dingus" to make them appear safe.

10. But man being stupid did not understand these new pistols and didst proceed to shoot themselves with the plastic pistol and with the trigger
cocking pistols for lo their manual of arms required great intelligence which man had long since forsaken. Yet man continue to gloat over these new pistols blaming evil forces for the negligent discharges which they themselves had committed.

11. And when man had been totally ensnared with the plastic pistol, the lord of the underworld didst cause a plague of the terrible Ka-Boom to descend upon man and the plastic pistols delivered their retribution upon men. And there was a great wailing and gnashing of teeth in the land.

12. Then seeing that the eyes of man were slowly being opened and that man was truly sorrowful for his sinful misdeeds, the Lord did send his messengers in the form of artisans who did hear and obey
the teachings of the prophet and who didst restore the profaned 1911s to their proper configuration, and lo, to the amazement of men they didst begin to work as the prophet had intended.

13. And the men of the land didst drive out the charlatans and profaners from the land, and there was joy and peace in the land, except for the evil sprits which tried occasionally to prey on the men and women of the land and who were sent to the place of eternal damnation by the followers of John.
 
Does a rotary barrel really delay follow up shots by that much? Is it something that even affects the average shooter or is it something that is only noticed by competition shooters?

I mean, my follow up shots suck anyway compared to the people who compete in The Bianchi Cup.
 
Old_Grouch said:
Indeed.


Genesis 19-11

1. In the beginning there was the 1911, and it was good. And behold the Lord said, thou shalt not muck with my disciple John's design for it is good and it workith. For John made the 1911, and lo all of his weapons, from the designs which I, the Lord, gave him upon the mountain.

2. And shouldst thou muck with it, and hang all manner of foul implements upon it, and profane its internal parts, thou shalt surely have malfunctions, and in the midst of battle thou shalt surely come to harm.

3. And as the ages passed men in their ignorance and arrogance didst forget the word of the Lord and began to profane the 1911. The tribe of the gamesman did place recoil spring guides and extended slide releases upon the 1911 and their metal smiths didst tighten the tolerances and alter parts to their liking, their clearness of mind being clouded by lust.

4. Their artisans did hang all manner of foul implements upon the 1911 and did so alter it that it became impractical to purchase. For lo, the artisans didst charge a great tax upon the purchasers of the 1911 so that the lowly field worker could not afford one. And the profaning of the internal parts didst render it unworkable when the dust of the land fell upon it.

5. And lo, they didst install adjustable sights, which are an abomination unto the Lord. For they doth break and lose their zero when thou dost need true aim. And those who have done so will be slain in great numbers by their enemies in the great battle.

6. And it came to pass that the Lord didst see the abomination wrought by man and didst cause, as he had warned, fearful malfunctions to come upon the abominations and upon the artisans who thought they could do no wrong.

7. Seeing the malfunctions and the confusion of men, the lord of the underworld did see an opportunity to further ensnare man and didst bring forth pistols made of plastic, whose form was such that they looked and felt like a brick, yet the eyes of man being clouded, they were consumed by the plastic pistol and did buy vast quantities of them.

8. And being a deceitful spirit the lord of the underworld did make these plastic pistols unamenable to the artisans of earth and they were unable to muck much with the design, and lo these pistols did appear to function.

9. And the evil one also brought forth pistols in which the trigger didst both cock and fire them and which require a "dingus" to make them appear safe.

10. But man being stupid did not understand these new pistols and didst proceed to shoot themselves with the plastic pistol and with the trigger
cocking pistols for lo their manual of arms required great intelligence which man had long since forsaken. Yet man continue to gloat over these new pistols blaming evil forces for the negligent discharges which they themselves had committed.

11. And when man had been totally ensnared with the plastic pistol, the lord of the underworld didst cause a plague of the terrible Ka-Boom to descend upon man and the plastic pistols delivered their retribution upon men. And there was a great wailing and gnashing of teeth in the land.

12. Then seeing that the eyes of man were slowly being opened and that man was truly sorrowful for his sinful misdeeds, the Lord did send his messengers in the form of artisans who did hear and obey
the teachings of the prophet and who didst restore the profaned 1911s to their proper configuration, and lo, to the amazement of men they didst begin to work as the prophet had intended.

13. And the men of the land didst drive out the charlatans and profaners from the land, and there was joy and peace in the land, except for the evil sprits which tried occasionally to prey on the men and women of the land and who were sent to the place of eternal damnation by the followers of John.
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Skip a bit, brother…
 
lysanderxiii said:
The HP-35, as originally made, did not have an external extractor.
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1909_45b2.jpg

But Mr Browning was not averse to the external extractor, he used them from 1900 til 1909.
I assume he went internal for easier GI disassembly. His commercial Winchester and FN/Browning sporting arms are pretty complicated. My neighbor the gunsmith got in a lot of A5 shotguns with the internals in a cigar box.

tarosean said:
What is "state of the art" with regards to firearms?
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The state of the business in service pistols is chasing Glock. The state of the business in personal defense is chasing the SIG P365.

We can hope that the OP will show us the state of the art.
 
9mmepiphany said:
...and a stamped frame covered in polymer.

Nothing slows down a rotating barrel other than friction...that isn't the issue. The issue is that a rotating barrel is inherently slower for followup shots due to the vectors of how it mitigates recoil
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Thanks!

JR24 said:
Well, I for one look forward to your NEW gun. Sounds great!
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Thanks!
 
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Jim Watson said:
I like Jeff Cooper's description of the P9S, all stamped sheet metal and plastic, then they put the money they saved back into an elaborate bolt head and barrel extension. It might be a good example of how light a slide can be if it is not critical to timing the operation.

There are roller actions of more conventional milled construction out there, Korriphila and Korth, both very expensive.

Our old buddy Clark said the roller CZ52 was not as strong as the Browning pattern Tokarev.
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Yes, I admire the roller actions. And I've heard they are expensive to manufacture. Timing of the operation is certainly critical.

tarosean said:
What is "state of the art" with regards to firearms?

Poly frames are over 50yrs old now. :what:
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Given it's broad acceptance, the Browning recoil operating system is the "state of the art" in regard to handguns. I'm proposing an advancement in operating systems.

JohnKSa said:
Proposing: Putting forward (an idea or plan) for consideration or discussion by others.

Dissipating recoil so the shooter feels less of it would definitely be a good thing. So, propose away. I think folks will be happy to consider and discuss this new operating system.
Click to expand...
Thanks!

WheelGunMan said:
You talk a good story... How about some hard evidence of your creation. Need more than smoke and mirrors.
Click to expand...
That would be gunsmoke. And the mirrors, you'll have to wait and see. I invent firearm accessories too.

lysanderxiii said:
The HP-35, as originally made, did not have an external extractor.

View attachment 1026217


Not really, the there is quite a difference between the behavior of the link versus the cam.
Click to expand...
Not really any difference at all. The cam is an incremental improvement over the link. They both manipulate the tilting of the barrel during lock-up and unlocking. Same operating system.

Old_Grouch said:
Indeed.


Genesis 19-11

1. In the beginning there was the 1911, and it was good. And behold the Lord said, thou shalt not muck with my disciple John's design for it is good and it workith. For John made the 1911, and lo all of his weapons, from the designs which I, the Lord, gave him upon the mountain.

2. And shouldst thou muck with it, and hang all manner of foul implements upon it, and profane its internal parts, thou shalt surely have malfunctions, and in the midst of battle thou shalt surely come to harm.

3. And as the ages passed men in their ignorance and arrogance didst forget the word of the Lord and began to profane the 1911. The tribe of the gamesman did place recoil spring guides and extended slide releases upon the 1911 and their metal smiths didst tighten the tolerances and alter parts to their liking, their clearness of mind being clouded by lust.

4. Their artisans did hang all manner of foul implements upon the 1911 and did so alter it that it became impractical to purchase. For lo, the artisans didst charge a great tax upon the purchasers of the 1911 so that the lowly field worker could not afford one. And the profaning of the internal parts didst render it unworkable when the dust of the land fell upon it.

5. And lo, they didst install adjustable sights, which are an abomination unto the Lord. For they doth break and lose their zero when thou dost need true aim. And those who have done so will be slain in great numbers by their enemies in the great battle.

6. And it came to pass that the Lord didst see the abomination wrought by man and didst cause, as he had warned, fearful malfunctions to come upon the abominations and upon the artisans who thought they could do no wrong.

7. Seeing the malfunctions and the confusion of men, the lord of the underworld did see an opportunity to further ensnare man and didst bring forth pistols made of plastic, whose form was such that they looked and felt like a brick, yet the eyes of man being clouded, they were consumed by the plastic pistol and did buy vast quantities of them.

8. And being a deceitful spirit the lord of the underworld did make these plastic pistols unamenable to the artisans of earth and they were unable to muck much with the design, and lo these pistols did appear to function.

9. And the evil one also brought forth pistols in which the trigger didst both cock and fire them and which require a "dingus" to make them appear safe.

10. But man being stupid did not understand these new pistols and didst proceed to shoot themselves with the plastic pistol and with the trigger
cocking pistols for lo their manual of arms required great intelligence which man had long since forsaken. Yet man continue to gloat over these new pistols blaming evil forces for the negligent discharges which they themselves had committed.

11. And when man had been totally ensnared with the plastic pistol, the lord of the underworld didst cause a plague of the terrible Ka-Boom to descend upon man and the plastic pistols delivered their retribution upon men. And there was a great wailing and gnashing of teeth in the land.

12. Then seeing that the eyes of man were slowly being opened and that man was truly sorrowful for his sinful misdeeds, the Lord did send his messengers in the form of artisans who did hear and obey
the teachings of the prophet and who didst restore the profaned 1911s to their proper configuration, and lo, to the amazement of men they didst begin to work as the prophet had intended.

13. And the men of the land didst drive out the charlatans and profaners from the land, and there was joy and peace in the land, except for the evil sprits which tried occasionally to prey on the men and women of the land and who were sent to the place of eternal damnation by the followers of John.
Click to expand...
Amen!

C0untZer0 said:
Does a rotary barrel really delay follow up shots by that much? Is it something that even affects the average shooter or is it something that is only noticed by competition shooters?

I mean, my follow up shots suck anyway compared to the people who compete in The Bianchi Cup.
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I don't think so. This might be a ploy to determine if my new operating system utilizes a rotating barrel. There are some questions/comments I will not be able to answer in order to keep my proprietary information hidden. I can assure you, the patent thieves want to know what I'm working on. I've heard competition shooters talk about faster shooting guns, but even they say the difference in speed is negligible. Rotating barrels do reduce recoil. The energy required to rotate the barrel doesn't get transmitted to the shooter's hand. [conversion of linear force (recoil) into rotational force (barrel)] Most of the perceived kick the shooter feels from recoil is a linear force directed rearward.
 
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One advantage of the cam track Browning variant (And of the rotating barrel - did you know that Mr Browning designed a rotating barrel pistol? Patent #580925) is that the distance of travel before unlocking can be adjusted by cam shape. I don't recall who it was that tinkered with longer "dwell time" for heavy loads, but it has been done.

A rotating barrel might affect felt recoil but bear in mind that Newtonian recoil is a momentum balance and that the shooter is going to get back all the momentum he sends out in the bullet.

Consider the USPSA shooter. He is required to meet a Power Factor of bullet weight times muzzle velocity, which is momentum, just not in scientific units. He will tinker with bullet weight, powder type, and action springs to get a combination that "shoots flat." Recoil in and of itself is not important, he wants minimum muzzle flip and a drop out of recoil straight back on target.

There are some subtle things goin on inside an automatic. I read Randy Lee's description of his design for an accuracy barrel for the sometimes sloppy Smith & Wesson M&P. His use of a 10 twist instead of factory 16 was not because the bullet needed more gyroscopic stability, it was so the torque reaction would do more to keep the barrel from flopping around even in a closer fit.
 
ACIinventor said:
That would be gunsmoke. And the mirrors, you'll have to wait and see. I invent firearm accessories too.
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You say you have the latest and greatest.. yet you won't divulge any info because it's proprietary.. yet here you are telling all who will listen. They caught on quickly at another forum when you incorporated political rhetoric into it and you are no longer welcome.

THR members and staff beware of a wolf in sheep's clothing.
 
WheelGunMan said:
THR members and staff beware of a wolf in sheep's clothing.
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I think we've been made award.

If someone wants to discuss something and ask for feedback...that's what the forum is for.
If someone simply says they have something better and is looking for approval...that's just childish
If someone says they have something better but won't at least offer something to discuss other than claims...that's trolling.

We don't do trolling on this forum
 
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