why are guns in .38 Special still being made & offered as much as they are?

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The ~.135" length of .380" diameter unused .357 Mag chamber is the concern. A .357" bullet will have blow-by and instability in that situation. A 125 gr XTP is the same whether loaded in a .38 Special case or a .357 Mag case, and it will have to navigate the .357 Mag chamber if fired from a .38.
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Again, because OAL is very similar for both cartridges, then assuming both bullets are loaded close to max OAL for the cartridge, then both bullets will be in almost exactly the same position in the chamber. That means both are positioned pretty much the same distance into the freebore before firing. If there's blowby for one, then there will be blowby for the other.

Again, the temptation is to assume that the bullets start out in different positions because of the difference in case lengths, but in reality, assuming that the loads are close to max OAL, they start out in nearly identical positions. So the idea of the .38Spl bullet rattling down this long length of .380" diameter chamber in the .357Mag chamber just isn't reality unless the .38Spl load is made to be considerably shorter than max OAL.
A 125 gr XTP is the same whether loaded in a .38 Special case or a .357 Mag case, and it will have to navigate the .357 Mag chamber if fired from a .38.
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Set the two loads next to each other on the table. If they are both about the same length (and they will be assuming both are loaded to about max OAL) then both bullets will start in the same position in the chamber.

Of course, if the .38Spl load is made to be considerably under max OAL, then things will be a bit different.
 
While there still are a lot of guns made in 38 Special, the variety is nothing like it used to be. S&W had the model 10 in 4 -6 barrel lengths, the model 12 in 2 lengths. The 64 in 3 lengths and the model 15 in 2 more as well as the m67. Out of those they currently produce the model 10
Classic, 4 inch. That's it, not counting J frames
I shoot magnums in my magnum handguns and 38's in my 38 Special revolvers.
 
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There is something special about shooting 38 Special ammunition in a gun chambered for 38 Special.

It is too bad that the manufacturers do not make many 38 Special revolvers any more other than the small frame snub guns. But I understand the economics of the manufacturers dealing with their customers afflicted with magnum-itus.

Since I reload, I save my 38 Special cases for my 38 Special revolvers and load mid range 357 Magnum ammunitiion in 357 Magnum cases for my 357 magnum revolvers.

I have one more 38 Special revolver than 357 Magnum revolvers. If you count my 38 Special 1911, it is two more guns.
 
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Jonesy814 said:
While there still are a lot of guns made in 38 Special, the variety is nothing like it used to be. S&W had the model 10 in 4 -6 barrel lengths, the model 12 in 2 lengths. The 64 in 3 lengths and the model 15 in 2 more as well as the m67. Out of those they currently produce the model 10
Classic, 4 inch. That's it, not counting J frames
Click to expand...

And the Model 14 in 6" and 8-3/8" barrels.
 
JohnKSa said:
Again, because OAL is very similar for both cartridges, then assuming both bullets are loaded close to max OAL for the cartridge, then both bullets will be in almost exactly the same position in the chamber. That means both are positioned pretty much the same distance into the freebore before firing. If there's blowby for one, then there will be blowby for the other.

Again, the temptation is to assume that the bullets start out in different positions because of the difference in case lengths, but in reality, assuming that the loads are close to max OAL, they start out in nearly identical positions. So the idea of the .38Spl bullet rattling down this long length of .380" diameter chamber in the .357Mag chamber just isn't reality unless the .38Spl load is made to be considerably shorter than max OAL.Set the two loads next to each other on the table. If they are both about the same length (and they will be assuming both are loaded to about max OAL) then both bullets will start in the same position in the chamber.

Of course, if the .38Spl load is made to be considerably under max OAL, then things will be a bit different.
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I reckon most handloaders don't typically load revolver cartridges to max OAL, rather they load them to the crimp groove, or cannelure, whichever the case may be. As such, assuming identical bullets, the difference in the OAL of the cartridges would be the same as the difference in the length of the cases.

35W
 
JohnKSa said:
The OAL length difference between .38 Spl and .357Mag is only 0.04".

It is true that the case length differs significantly--by 0.135", but the actual OAL length difference, including the bullet, is pretty small. The .357Mag just has the bullets seated more deeply into the case. Basically they didn't need the cartridge to be longer when they made the .357Mag, there was already PLENTY of room for powder. They just made the case longer to prevent it from being chambered in a .38Spl revolver.

It is true that a .38Spl revolver can be made much lighter and much less sturdy since it has to withstand much less pressure and recoil than would be expected of the heavier caliber, but the OAL cartridge length difference, in and of itself, contributes almost nothing to the size of the cylinder--and for the same reason very little to cylinder jump either.
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The Hodgdon Reloading site has the 158 grain .357 COL at 1.590” and the 158 grain .38 Special COL at 1.475”. A difference of 0.115”

The 125 grain XTP .357 COL is 1.590” and the 125 grain XTP .38 Special is 1.455”. A difference of 0.135”.

Am I missing something in your post?

You can check my numbers here:https://www.hodgdonreloading.com/
 
JohnKSa said:
Again, because OAL is very similar for both cartridges, then assuming both bullets are loaded close to max OAL for the cartridge, then both bullets will be in almost exactly the same position in the chamber. That means both are positioned pretty much the same distance into the freebore before firing. If there's blowby for one, then there will be blowby for the other.

Again, the temptation is to assume that the bullets start out in different positions because of the difference in case lengths, but in reality, assuming that the loads are close to max OAL, they start out in nearly identical positions. So the idea of the .38Spl bullet rattling down this long length of .380" diameter chamber in the .357Mag chamber just isn't reality unless the .38Spl load is made to be considerably shorter than max OAL.Set the two loads next to each other on the table. If they are both about the same length (and they will be assuming both are loaded to about max OAL) then both bullets will start in the same position in the chamber.

Of course, if the .38Spl load is made to be considerably under max OAL, then things will be a bit different.
Click to expand...

The specific example I will use to illustrate the concern is factory loaded Hornady Custom .38 Special and .357 Magnum ammunition, both using the common 125 gr XTP projectile with cannelure, and both that are sitting on my desk right now. The bullets in both of these rounds are seated such that the cannelure is located at the respective case mouth, and hence, the OAL difference is almost exactly the delta of the case lengths. The .38 Special Hornady round will have ~.135" of unsupported travel if fired in the .380" diameter .357 Mag chamber.

[Edit to add that other individuals responded while I was preparing this posting.]
 
I typically purchase .357 Magnum revolvers for their reliable capability to digest a variety of ammunition.
Needless to say, shooting .357 Magnum out of a .357 Magnum and .38 Special out of a .38 Special is ideal.
 
The Hodgdon Reloading site has the 158 grain .357 COL at 1.590” and the 158 grain .38 Special COL at 1.475”. A difference of 0.115”

The 125 grain XTP .357 COL is 1.590” and the 125 grain XTP .38 Special is 1.455”. A difference of 0.135”.
Click to expand...
The .357Mag in both examples are loaded to max OAL spec. But both .38Spl loads are considerably under max OAL spec which is 1.550".
...hence, the OAL difference is almost exactly the delta of the case lengths.
Click to expand...
Which means that those .38Spl loads are made to be considerably under max OAL spec.
JohnKSa said:
...assuming both bullets are loaded close to max OAL for the cartridge...
Click to expand...
JohnKSa said:
...assuming that the loads are close to max OAL...
Click to expand...
JohnKSa said:
...unless the .38Spl load is made to be considerably shorter than max OAL.
Click to expand...
JohnKSa said:
Of course, if the .38Spl load is made to be considerably under max OAL, then things will be a bit different.
Click to expand...
Looking at reloading data, it does seem that most of the recommended hand loads for .357Mag push the max length for the cartridge while most .38Spl loads come in about a tenth of an inch under max length for that cartridge.

I don't know how common that is in terms of factory ammo, but the reason I looked into this topic in the first place was that I was looking at some factory ammo in both calibers and was struck by how similar the overall length was in spite of the case length difference.
 
JohnKSa said:
The .357Mag in both examples are loaded to max OAL spec. But both .38Spl loads are considerably under max OAL spec which is 1.550".Which means that those .38Spl loads are made to be considerably under max OAL spec.
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I would wager that most .38 Special on the market is loaded way less than max OAL. Other than some of the long nose 158 gr LRNs, I can't think of much that pushes past what is seen with common range fodder like WWB, Rem or AE 130 gr FMJ. Most JHP's are very similar to the FMJs. Of course, as a handloader, one can play with OAL as much as they want.
 
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JohnKSa said:
The .357Mag in both examples are loaded to max OAL spec. But both .38Spl loads are considerably under max OAL spec which is 1.550".Which means that those .38Spl loads are made to be considerably under max OAL spec.
Looking at reloading data, it does seem that most of the recommended hand loads for .357Mag push the max length for the cartridge while most .38Spl loads come in about a tenth of an inch under max length for that cartridge.

I don't know how common that is in terms of factory ammo, but the reason I looked into this topic in the first place was that I was looking at some factory ammo in both calibers and was struck by how similar the overall length was in spite of the case length difference.
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Technically, you are correct.
For reference I used SAAMI Specs, pages 44 and 47.
https://saami.org/wp-content/upload...FP-and-R-Approved-2015-12-14-Posting-Copy.pdf

But, I reload to the specs in the manuals and have yet to load a .38 Special to 1.550” and I am real sure I haven’t encountered a .38 Special factory load at that max length of 1.550. I am not saying they’re not out there, I just haven’t seen one.

So, if .38 reloads and factory loads are not generally loaded to maximum SAAMI specs your point is more the exception rather than the rule…in my opinion.
 
Currently, I have 3 revolvers that are chambered in .38 Special. A S&W model 442, a model 36 and a model 10. I also had a S&W model 60 Pro in .357 Magnum. Shooting magnum loads out of that model 60 J frame was quite an experience. :D Much recoil and fire. I mostly fired .38s from it. I sold it for reasons outside of the .357 exhilaration. ;)

I like that gun makers make .38 Special guns for those of us that like them. I would like another .38 Spl revolver. Perhaps an S&W model 10 Classic or a Ruger LCRx with a 3” barrel…or both. :cool:
 
Regarding length of cartridges, I believe
much good info is being provided even
if something of a disagreement has
evolved.

In another thread some time ago, I
mentioned that back in the day when
.357 brass was hard to come by,
one could create a "magnum" round
in a .38 case by not seating the
bullet quite so deep. The OAL was
then the same as a factory .357.
 
JohnKSa said:
That means both are positioned pretty much the same distance into the freebore before firing. If there's blowby for one, then there will be blowby for the other.
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The free bore in a 357 chamber starts .135 forward of where it does in a 38 Special chamber so while the front of the bullet may well be in the free bore the back of the bullet has to make a .135 jump from the ~.380 chamber to the ~.358 throat.
This can cause issues of leading with cast/swaged bullets.
 
.38 Special said:
There are exceptions to the latter rule, of course, but by the time a .357 is as small and light as possible, only a lunatic still wants to shoot Magnums through it!
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I have a SW 640-1. Hardly known as a lightweight; it's an all-steel, internal hammer 5 shot j-frame chambered in 357 Mag.

I have indeed fired full house 158gr 357 Mag through it - one cylinder, just to try it.
I'd just as soon not do it for giggles. As I recall there was no giggling involved.

I carry it with 38 Spl+P.
 
.38 Special said:
I've shot the 340PD with full house Magnum rounds and want nothing further to do with the damn thing. I regularly shoot a 4" 500 S&W and find that recoil more controllable and less physically damaging. As Mike Venturino put it, "The 340PD is a fine .38 Special".
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Quite a few .357’s on the market fall into the category “Just because you can does not mean you should”. I have shot scandiums in a few calibers, not fun nor practical for ME. I read a post earlier about the price difference also, at least $200 more for a scandium over and airweight. That equals ammo, holster and a speed loader. To the Op’s question. Quite a few .new 38 purchases are new shooters and they are buying Airweights and alloy frames guns when they should have bought steel. I think S&W is missing the boat by not offering the Model 15 in their Classic Line. Other companies like Taurus are probably selling the majority of .38 only revolvers because they are at a nice price point. A decent (one without factory defects) $300 .38 revolver is a thing of beauty and something that will do 100% of the job for 80% of the people who need a gun. The type of people who go into a store and say “I need a box of .38’s for my gun” not us geeks that are like “did you get the latest XYZ bullets in”. Americans love the .38 Special, it’s Special!
 
Many 38s are too small to be credible as 357 Magnum, but offering the larger chambering allows marketing the gun as versatile (they lied).
 
mavracer said:
The free bore in a 357 chamber starts .135 forward of where it does in a 38 Special chamber so while the front of the bullet may well be in the free bore the back of the bullet has to make a .135 jump from the ~.380 chamber to the ~.358 throat.
This can cause issues of leading with cast/swaged bullets.
Click to expand...

But not always. I shoot 38 Short Colt, loaded to fairly high pressures, pushing lead bullets in my 627 (8-shot 357 mag N-frame) and do not have a leading issue. I have over 1/2-inch of extra chamber to jump through. No leading and accuracy is acceptable given the round nose bullets I am using.
 
I have a Ruger LCR in .357. I very rarely shoot 357 in it. I wanted to shoot mostly 38+P and it works great that way and I don't have to worry about too much pressure for the gun. Practice with 38 Specials all day. I get all three rounds to shoot, and all three shoot pretty much close to the same point of aim. It is my carry gun so I don't shoot at long distance, which I suspect would change the accuracy of all three.
 
Not everyone wants a .357 and if I'm gonna shoot .38's, I'm gonna do it in a .38. For me, there are plain few things as wonderful as a K-frame in .22LR or .38Spl. I have a model 14 in 6", as well as 2" and 4" model 15's.

IMG_2869b.jpg

IMG_6658b.jpg


JohnKSa said:
Basically they didn't need the cartridge to be longer when they made the .357Mag, there was already PLENTY of room for powder. They just made the case longer to prevent it from being chambered in a .38Spl revolver.
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I'm not so sure. The heavy .38/44 loads were well short of the .357. As I recall, Keith's .38 load was 13.5gr of 2400 and those were 42,000psi (or 46?). His .357 load was a 1.5gr higher. The first factory loads were 15.3gr and they ran 1500fps. You certainly take advantage of the greater case capacity with modern guns and H110.
 
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