Why is 38 special such a wimpy round?

[MrTuffPaws]

Looking at ballistics of 38 special I noticed that it is not even on par with 9mm para. Even the +p stuff is pretty weak in comparison of muzzle velocity and energy. Why is this?

I understand that the old powders back in the day did not really have the oomph, but today we have good powder and such a large case to load it in. You should be able to load a 38 special to within 357 magnum's power.

The only thing I can think of as to why 38 is not a powerhouse is that the old guns made for it would blow apart if really hot loads were used.

 

[Quantrill]

It's Not!!

 

[Black Snowman]

The only thing I can think of as to why 38 is not a powerhouse is that the old guns made for it would blow apart if really hot loads were used.

Not just the old guns, many of the new ones too. Look at some of the 38 Spl pocket revolvers and think about how much pressure you think they could handle.

Having a nice low-pressure round allows for the use of thin steel chambers and barrels and lightweight alloy frames and still maintain a good margin for safety.

 

[Boats]

I think you have pretty much hit on all of the reasons. After all, the .357 Magnum was born of experimentation using .38/44 Heavy Duty Smith & Wessons as a test bed. What was going on there was the hopping up of the .38 Spec. in a revolver that was in the large .44 Special frame. Those ballistic experiments eventually yielded the .357 Magnum, which featured an extended case so that it wouldn't chamber in the older .38 Spec. revolvers.

Nowadays, I am sure the .38 Special could be hotrodded just like yesteryear, and in fact, some boutique ammo makers do just that, but there is still a concern that these more powerful rounds will find their way into older .38s or newer lightweight ones that can't handle it as well.

The real question is why we don't see more potent .357 Magnum factory loadings. It is, in many cases, not even as hot as it was in the mid-'30s.

 

[Sistema1927]

The .357 magnum case is 1/10" longer than the .38 Special, not because it needed extra capacity, but to keep it from being chambered in .38's.

Even though YMMV, if you are an experienced hand loader, and have a solid K frame .38, there is no reason why you wouldn't be able to come close to duplicating .357 magnum performance.

 

[armoredman]

I carried a .38spl with Fed HydraShoks in it, and didn't feel bad about it. The .38Spl is a decent cartridge, one I wouldn't hesitate to bet my life on with good ammo, and an accurate revolver!

 

[Coltdriver]

Good old .38 is still very effective as a defense round.

There is no doubt that the round could be made more potent in its current casing, however, all safety factors aside for current pistols a .357 in a snub is a serious hand full and to go over that would make the round somewhere between really painfull and just impossible to handle!

 

[grendelbane]

The .38 Special used to be considered a potent cartridge. Look at British and other foreign descriptions, and you will see that they thought it was quite the powerhouse.

Even today, most of the world thinks that 9mm is plenty hot.

In the 19th century many thought that a .32 was plenty.

Opinions change with time.

 

[Gewehr98]

It all goes back to the same question...

Why is 38 special such a wimpy round?

I seriously doubt that those who would call the .38 Special "wimpy" would volunteer to go downrange and catch even a 148gr HBWC load with their bodies, now would they?

I'd wager the venerable .38 Special stopped more than a few bad guys in their tracks as a standard police revolver load.

 

[TexasRifleman]

The SAAMI specs are what they are. Can't just randomly decide to up chamber pressure 10,000 units just because there is some new powder out.

Instead of trying to "fix" 38 special because you think there is something wrong with it, move on up to .357 mag or whatever you choose.

That's why there are so many calibers out there

 

[Pistol Toter]

I would diffinitely NOT call the .38 Spl "wimpy". There isn't a thing wrong with the load. No, it's not a .357mag but if someone was shooting at me with one, I'd sure be looking for safe place to hide!!! I have killed animals the size of a good size dog before and it did a good job. The .44 Spl is another one that ain't wimpy. Them old loads did a good job for a lot of years.

 

[whm1974]

Looking at ballistics of 38 special I noticed that it is not even on par with 9mm para. Even the +p stuff is pretty weak in comparison of muzzle velocity and energy. Why is this?

Which chart was you looking at? I can dupacate any 9mm load in .38 SPL but cannot do the reverse.

-Bill

 

[denfoote]

Sooo.
Are you saying my .38spl snub is a ineffective whimp???
I'd better stop carrying it right away!!
I believe I read somewhere that a good percentage of the IDPA Board of Directors carry a J-frame snub...chambered in...you guessed it... .38spl!!!

 

[mec]

Colonel Askins was happy to have killed two men with the .38 special round nosed lead and was delighted with its effectiveness. He went on to say that most of the 'Jazbos' who say the 38 is inadequate " haven't shot anything more dangerous than a billy goat."

 

[ID_shooting]

WOW, I guess I will have to swap my whimpy sp101 for a massive 9mm. LOL, yes, .38 got a bad rap for not stopping bad guys way back in the day. But what needs to be mentioned was that they had poor bullet choice. A .38 snubby w/ a good HP bullet is "enough" gun for me any day.

 

[BluesBear]

Why is 38 special such a wimpy round?

It's not.
That just what some people assume by reading ballistics tables.

Sticks and stones may break your bones but numbers on a chart will never harm you.
While a well place .38 will cause you to take an extended dirt nap.




Ballistics tables are just a feeble attempt to quantify the ineffable.

 

[Stainz]

If I recall correctly, that old 'FBI Load' of 158gr LHPSWC +P in a 2" snubbie, which it was designed for, enjoys a 6-8% higher 'OSS' (One Shot Stop) rating than 230gr FMJ .45 ACP. LE folks left the round due mainly to the revolver's capacity, not it's power. I chrono-ed the currently available Remington R38S12 version at 834fps from my 2" m10, 916fps from my 3" 65, and 994fps from my 6" 66.

Some of my range-mates were giving me grief about my 'wimpy' .44 Russians in my 3" 696 last week when I told them that the 240gr LSWC over a minimal 3.5gr Titegroup only made 690fps. When I reminded them that the round rated a power factor of 165.6, easily making 'major', they were more impressed. I wouldn't want anyone popping those at me, that's for sure.

The commercial .357 Magnum loads today, like it's .44 Magnum brother, are generally well below the SAAMI specs. Whether this is a factor resulting from our litigeous society or not is questionable. The actual history of the .357 Magnum 'revolves', so to speak, around the FBI's need to pierce automobile sheet metal to injure/incapacitate fleeing felons, something the lower velocity .38 & .44 rounds couldn't do. Many of said felons were supurbly armed, due to their having raided national guard armories. The use of such a round in the home is only justified if you suspect a bad guy is hiding in your fridge or washing machine. I don't feel under-protected with those LHPSWC's in my .38's and .357's. Of course, I feel even better with my 200gr Gold Dots in my .44's.

Stainz

 

[Moondoggie]

Sure, you could hotrod a .38 spec, and it probably wouldn't blow-up a modern gun the first time you fired it...there are safety margins built into SAMMI. That's what the +P concept is, and why some mfg's recommend not using it in a particular firearm. A homebrew hot load might not ever blow your gun up, but I'll bet that over time and repeated firing it would cause damage/excessive wear. You can also take a car and burn rubber all over town, but you're gonna experience lower mpg, increased wear, higher maintenance, decreased reliability, and shorten the useful life of the car.

If someone were to use hotter-than-recommended ammo in a firearm I think they would incur a moral obligation never to hand it off to someone else since there's an increased chance of a catastrophic failure.

I'm strongly oriented toward preserving and maintaining my quality firearms, so the idea of "souping-up" a ctg doesn't interest me. I buy the gun that's made for the ctg that does what I want it to do.

 

[longspurr]

The 38 in its lead round nose configuration is a wimpy round. Most of the police depts. in the USA have abandoned it. Will it kill? Yes but so will the 22 long rifle. The point about it being wimpy is that it does not incapacity the person being shot fast enough to prevent the bad guy from doing a lot of shooting back.
Jim Cirillo in his book "guns, bullets, and gunfights" describes 2 detectives emptying their 38 snubbys into a guys face at point blank range. The guy not only lived but walked to the ambulance. Elmer Keith describes a gunfight between a robber with a 32 revolver and the cop with a 38. The robber shot first and hit the cop but a ticket pad stopped the bullet. The cop shot the robber 6 times. The robber had enough go power left to throw his empty revolver at the cop, missing him and going through a front window and out into the street.

I think a lot of people carry small caliber guns for 2 reasons.
1) Any gun with you is better that many at home.
2) Many people will stop or run away when threatened with a gun - no shooting necessary.

 

[MrMurphy]

Having seen some people get shot with various rounds, the .38 is still quite as effective.

It's not a .44, .45 or .357, but it will certainly drop a man in his tracks.

An NYPD officer with a .38 loaded with RNL killed a Polar Bear with a single shot (the Great Polar Bear Incident) to the heart.

 

[SnubbyMan]

TexasSIGman, well said. The .38 Special is what it is. Don't like it? Others to choose from...

 

[bpisler]

Here's some 38spl's that are not wimpy

Pow'r ball
100gr +P @ 1300fps,375 ft/lbs

110gr +P JHP @ 1250fps,382 ft/lbs
125gr +P JHP @ 1125fps,351 ft/lbs

DPX barnes X bullet
110gr all copper HP,non +P
1200fps & 352ft/lb

These were tested in a 4" barrel
are are made by cor-bon.

 

[dogngun]

I carry a .357 magnum revolver, but carry .38 specials in it. I prefer the Remington ( Or Federal) LHP +P. It ie enough power, but very accurate and controlable - My 4" model 19 will shoot these all day long, and I KNOW this round will work. The .38 special is still popular because it's still good.


Mark

 

[The Rabbi]

The effectiveness of the .38spc seems to depend a lot on the bullet. The old LRN were known as widow-makers because they lacked good terminal effects (i.e. made the cop's wife a widow).
The +P LHP solved that problem. Some of the other bullet types and loadings probably will too. They are cheap to practice with, available virtually anywhere, and come in a wide variety of styles to fit almost any shooter. Whats not to like about all that?

 

[thatguy]

The ammo makers do not load the Special to its full potential. Blame the lawyers. Too many fragile, cheap .38s out there and they worry about lawsuits. In a Colt/Ruger/S&W the .38 Special can top the best loads in 9MM but you must hand load to do it. I have exceeded 1,400 FPS with a 110 JHP from a 4" S&W but the load shot way low so useless with fixed sights. My 125 JHP at 1,250 load shoots dead on.

The old 158 RN/800 (they claim 850 but 800 is more realistic) load is a little "wimpy." But you don't have to restrict yourself to this load.