Why is 38 special such a wimpy round?

[The_Shootist]

Wimpy? Try Buffalo Bore...

I shot off a box of BB 158 gr +P SWCLHP bullet and wouldn't call that one wimpy. It didn't feel wimpy out of my SP 101

Truth be told, I figured if I was going to suffer thru a borderline .357 rd (like that one felt) I figured I might as well be honest about it and use a medium power .357 rd like the Golden Sabre.

I like the .38 spl - its accurate, its cheap and plentiful to proctice with and sure wouldn't feel undergunned with the 'ol FBI load in my SP 101 (which is what I carry along with 2 speedloaders).

I figure it will do the trick if I do my part against all but the most absolute "doomsday" scenario's (ie late night multiple opponent surprises near/in a convenience store, or maybe what that unfortunate Texas CCW holder faced in Tyler recently).

 

[1911user]

QUOTE: The ammo makers do not load the Special to its full potential. Blame the lawyers. Too many fragile, cheap .38s out there and they worry about lawsuits. In a Colt/Ruger/S&W the .38 Special can top the best loads in 9MM but you must hand load to do it. I have exceeded 1,400 FPS with a 110 JHP from a 4" S&W but the load shot way low so useless with fixed sights. My 125 JHP at 1,250 load shoots dead on.

END QUOTE: (is there a better way to quote on this forum?)

NO, the ammo makers load 38 special and 38 special +P to the SAMMI pressure ratings for those cartridges. When you (and I) reload ammo above these pressure specifications, you no longer have a "standard" 38 special or 38 special +P load. You end up with a load (that happens to be used in a 38 special case) that generates pressures above the pressure limits for those cartridges. You are then in custom loading territory where you (and only you) have to decide what is safe for your particular revolver. You want to load to .357 magnum pressure levels in your 38 special? then do so, but don't suggest that everyone else ought to do the same because ammo manufacturers are secretly wimps and don't know what they're doing. There are some revolvers (rated for 38 special) that really should not be used with any ammo hotter than plain 38 special (no +P ammo either).

 

[thatguy]

Um... How do you think they come up with the SAAMI pressure limits? Grab numbers out of thin air? The engineers sit down with the lawyers and they figure out how hot they can load a cartridge and still have it safe to shoot in the biggest piece of crap gun out there. If only good quality .38 Specials were around the SAAMI specs for this caliber would be much higher than they are. If one is using a Colt, or Ruger or S&W the SAAMI specs for the .38 Special are way below the capabilities of the gun.

BTW- I didn't tell anyone to do anything. I only stated how I load my guns and I made it clear that I don't own any of the junk guns that cause the ammo makers to keep pressures so low. Everyone has to decide for themselves and if you are uncomfortable loading cartridges beyond current SAAMI specs then please keep your loads under this level with my blessings. (You do know the SAAMI numbers have changed over the years, right? So obviously they are not written in stone and there must be some forces causing change, like liability.)

You might also check out some reloading manuals from the 1970s. The loads I listed can be found there. The loads listed in the books 30+ years ago were much hotter than the ones listed now. Why? Have the guns gotten weaker? Hardly. It's the lawyers and the lawsuits that caused the ammo makers and reloading book publishers to reduce the pressure levels of the ammo and loads they offer.

 

[RugerNo]

The old 6 shot revolvers in 38spl were determined to be of inadequate capacity with just 6 shots so the ballistic table readers decided a 9mm semi-auto would give them the capacity in the magazine. They soon found out the 9mm was a true wimp round in the performance category and jumped to the 10mm/40's to save their butts. If the Keith designed bullet would have been the standard loading instead of the RN, the 38 may have enjoyed a larger following. If the 200gr Police round nose would have been a SWC, I guarantee the performance would have been in the 38's favor.

 

[Pilot]

Rugerno wrote:

"They soon found out the 9mm was a true wimp round in the performance category"

Modern JHP 9MM, especially the +p is not a "true wimp round". I don't know what variation of the 9MM your speaking of, but a good 124 gr, JHP, +p 9MM is an effective round.

 

[Peter M. Eick]

I have to go with Boats (see above).

The real question ought to be why is the 357 mag such a wimpy round today?

If you look at the 38/44 heavy duty with a 158 grn swc going at 1150 out of a nice 38/44 outdoorsman (6" barrel) and we look at a 38 special +P doing right at 1000 for a 158 swc out of the same gun, or even a standard 38 special 158 lead doing 880 out of 6" outdoorsman. Then why does a 357 magnum in standard factory loads only make about 1260 in a 6" pre-28?

Even casual reloading with 2400 and current book loads maxs put the top end out of the same pre-28 6" at over 1300 with a 158 grn swc.

This is what really bothers me. I can understand why the 38 special is downloaded because of the pre-ww1 guns still available for it, but the 357 magnum should be back at "full power" like in the original loadings.

 

[thatguy]

Peter, it's the lawyers, again. The ammo makers are so fearful of liability suits that they have reduced loadings across the board on handgun ammo. I tested some factory .38 Supers not long ago and they clocked 1080 FPS. This is the same as the old .38 ACP which tells me they have down-loaded the Super to the same pressures in case some yahoo stuffs the Supers into his 1905 Colt.

 

[Dienekes]

Back when I knew it all the RNL round was still the standard and I vowed to never fall so low as to carry a .38 Spl. The most common load for the .357 was the 158 gr SP that made a hell of a noise but usually never expanded, overpenetrated, and so went whistling off into the next county. The conventional wisdom, then, was to load whatever it was you had (bigger bullets being better) with a SWC or SWCHP with plenty of 2400 and hope for the best.

I took some loads like that overseas, because the military load for the .38 was a 130 gr RNJ going fast. I thought a Keith SWC at around 1100 fps would work better in the crunch--but never had to test it out and left those little gems there when I left.

I am fond of a .357/125 but today have no problem relying on the FBI load in a .38 Spl if necessary.

Frankly I would rather have a Model 10 that works every time than some wonder gun that is a sometime proposition. Fancy is nice but reliability will let you go home to the wife and kiddies at the end of your shift.

 

[Magnum88C]

The real question ought to be why is the 357 mag such a wimpy round today?. . .Even casual reloading with 2400 and current book loads maxs put the top end out of the same pre-28 6" at over 1300 with a 158 grn swc.

Yes, most loadign manuals and factories have wimped down the .357.
Might I suggest, if you handload, to get the data packets the powder manufacturers put out?

The Alliant book lists a max charge of 15.2 grains of 2400 at 1535fps out of a 5.5" barrel.
A max charge of 16.6 grains of Win 296 gives 1610fps, I don't recall the test barrel length.

Both for jacketed 158-grain projectiles.

Either of these compare more than favorably to the original .357 load of a 158-gr projectile at 1550 fps from an 8 3/8" barrel.

 

[HankB]

The engineers sit down with the lawyers and they figure out how hot they can load a cartridge and still have it safe to shoot in the biggest piece of crap gun out there.

Lot of truth here. The .38 Special is an OLD cartridge, and early guns - many of which are still in use - weren't made with modern high-strength steels, nor did they all have top notch heat treating.

It's my understanding that SAAMI specs for the .357 Magnum have been changed to a lower pressure limit in recent years. Too many "new" guns chambered for the .357 simply aren't up to what the older guns could routinely take, and SAAMI took the route of partially "de-Magging" the Magnum. It sure would be interesting to look at the correspondence or meeting minutes of the SAAMI folks who did this . . .

 

[Master Blaster]

Can it pass thought a human body from a range of say 15 feet???

Will it make a .357" hole, a whole .002 bigger than 9mm or .357 sig?



Then it is sufficient for its purpose, and like other calibers shot placement is key.

 

[Peter M. Eick]

Magnum88c,

I shot a "few" really hot (by todays standards) 158 grn lead 2400 loads out of my 1939 Registered Magnum to see what it was like for full loads. They were in the range of what you quoted above. All I can see is with small Magna grips it took a "real man" to handle the recoil of the original magnum.

Yes I would love to see the 357 Magnum "re-magnumized" but it is not going to happen unless I do it myself with reloads or something like Double Tap or Buffalo Bore loads. My Pre-28/Pre-27 is just itching for some real loads......

 

[Magnum88C]

Peter,

The only revolver I tried those loads in (the 2400 load, not the Winchester) is my 6" GP-100.
With the rubber grips (the factory grips fit my hand perfectly), it wasn't a bad shoot (of course all that weight out front helped too), but you're right, the big factory loads just aren't in that same category. Of course it is my firm belief that these original loads are what gave the .357 its fierce reputation as a manstopper.

 

[Byron]

In regard to 357 handloads, find a Speer #10.It is what I have used for many years for the 357 for 158 JHP. Byron

 

[medmo]

Enough of the hurt feelings and damaged egos already. Go see your therapist if you read this article and feel totally insecure.

The 38 special is effective put not as high pressured as more "modern" rounds. The 38 special transformed into the 357 magnum due to pressure. With the right brass and firearm you could pretty much duplicate magnum loads with the 38 special cartridge. The reason that idea was not followed and a new round was developed was because of the design and manufacture of the guns already distributed to folks. The 357 mag is the same case except it is 1/10 of an inch longer so it can never be chambered in a 38 special gun. There are still a huge amount of older guns chambered for 38 spec. out there that would detonate if fired with a higher pressured magnum round. It is all about safety and liabilility.

 

[whitebear]

I think that discussions like this one should be classified as religious...

 

[one45auto]

I own several .38 Specials, and would have no concerns whatsoever about using them to defend my life. They're plenty of gun, so long as you put the bullets where they're supposed to go.

 

[asleepinTucson]

I have seen victims of gunshot wounds come into the emergency room over the years and you know the ones shot with 38s were just as dead as the ones shot with other calibers.

Having said that, I have no problem carrying my S&W model 36-9 loaded with Federal 158 grain swchp +p.