How’s your church security?

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As someone looking for a church this thread speaks volumes. Also just in general freedom and 2A.

I don't go anywhere outside of govt facilities where I can't carry. A church is no acception.

I guess those of us not "trained" enough to be part of the "church security team" shouldn't be able to carry in general public either.

Its all so tiresome....
 
I guess those of us not "trained" enough to be part of the "church security team" shouldn't be able to carry in general public either.
IIf you're talking about what I wrote, maybe you missed this statement I made.

"My personal feeling on the matter is that a person who doesn't want to join the security team should still be able to carry at church, for exactly the reason you stated--for their own safety."

I'm not going to respond to the obvious strawman in your comment since no one on this thread has so much as hinted that people who aren't trained shouldn't be able to carry in public.
 
Wow, it should not be up to a single person such as a prayer leader, but I would think a committee, or the board of elders, something like that.

Depends on the church, and, to some extent, what state you're in (and that state's laws.) In some deep south states in which I've lived, churches are legally akin to sole proprietorship businesses, and the pastor (or his designee) has downright absolute authority. I've observed this to be especially true in independent, evangelical type churches. (To the point that pastoral positions are inherited from one generation of the same family to the next.) In other states, I've seen churches treated as a trust with a board of trustees. In those cases, the pastor is chosen (hired and/or fired) by the board, not unlike in corporation. As such, the pastor may have broad authority, but the board members can shut him down if they so desire. If a church is a member of a hierarchical organization (Southern Baptist Convention, United Methodist, etc.), they may be required to follow the rules of that higher authority. In any case, the church properties are essentially (if not legally) private property, and the person in charge does have the legal standing to enforce a no gun rule, either in whole, or applied to certain members of the congregation.
 
...no one on this thread has so much as hinted that people who aren't trained shouldn't be able to carry in public.

Perhaps not, but there is definite vibe out there in the world, even among 2A advocates, that only those who meet a certain standard, criteria, or degree of professionalism should be allowed to defend themselves; the rest of us plebs can go jump in a lake. It's something of a "let them eat cake" mentality wherein only the police, the "band leader," or some other blessed person should be allowed to have or carry a gun because they're somehow "more qualified" to be trusted with a gun.
 
Perhaps not, but there is definite vibe out there in the world, even among 2A advocates, that only those who meet a certain standard, criteria, or degree of professionalism should be allowed to defend themselves; the rest of us plebs can go jump in a lake.
Maybe, but no one's said anything like that on this thread.
It's something of a "let them eat cake" mentality wherein only the police, the "band leader," or some other blessed person should be allowed to have or carry a gun because they're somehow "more qualified" to be trusted with a gun.
You didn't get that from anything I posted.

1. I specifically said that the band leader wasn't special, that there just needed to be one for a team to be effective. If there's no leader, you may have a group of people but you don't really have a team.

2. I specifically said that it wasn't about who should be allowed to carry guns, making it clear that I believed that anyone who wants to should be allowed to carry for their own defense. I even quoted it again in the post immediately above yours.

That said:

1. Since churches are private property, if they want to set rules for who carries and who doesn't, they're entitled to do so, regardless of what you or I think they should do.

2. Having an armed security team on hand does change the dynamic somewhat for self-defenders and it's good to be aware of that and think about the ramifications. Just as it's important for self-defenders to understand that when armed first responders come onto the scene, the dynamic changes--and it's important to think about what that means.

Finally, this whole subforum is about Strategies, Tactics and Training. It makes sense that there is going to be a focus on Strategies, Tactics and, yes, Training. This isn't the legal subforum, so when someone says that training is important or even critical, there's no reason to assume that means that it should be legally mandatory or that people should lose their legal rights to self-defense if they aren't trained. It's counterproductive to participate in this particular subforum of THR while pretending that every time the importance of training comes up (as one should expect it would given the title) that it's implying that there should be legal consequences for those who don't have it.
 
I've been thinking about this thread for awhile...

A bunch of people bringing their own guns and doing their own thing doesn't make a security team any more than a bunch of people bringing their own instruments and each playing whatever song they want makes a band.

Along the same lines, if there is already a band, it's really not all that hard to understand why the band director might tell people who haven't practiced with the band to leave their instruments at home.

My feeling is that if you want to help provide security for the church (or any other similar organization), join the security team and be willing to "try out and practice with the band".

If there's no security team, see about forming one. Keep in mind that this isn't just going to be forming a club of people who have carry permits--there needs to be a real effort to organize things, to plan for various scenarios, assign tasks, to make sure you have backups to cover the inevitable absences, to train, etc.

If no one wants a security team except for you, think about what you want to do and can do on your own and take steps to make sure you can achieve your goals. Having a gun is just the first step--like buying an instrument is only the first step in becoming a musician.

Things can happen very fast, people need to be where they need to be, ready to act, knowing what they need to do, knowing that they can do it based on their training, knowing what others will be doing, etc. Team members need to practice in realistic situations. If they expect to be seated at the beginning of the scenario, they need to choose a carry method that allows them to draw rapidly while seated. They need to practice drawing from whatever carry/concealment method they will actually be using. You don't want a team member to get killed because they can't draw while they are sitting down and/or because they haven't practiced drawing from their actual carry/concealment rig. Training needs to be done with the guns and rigs that will actually be carried, not with the favorite range toy and an unconcealed competition type holster.

The training results are critical to determining what the capability of the team will be and that, in turn, plays into how to plan for various scenarios, knowing what to do and what not to do. Team members should be positioned so that if they need to shoot, the line of their shot has the least chance of hitting the people they are there to protect. Planning to stand up and shoot over the heads of seated congregation members who might also stand up in panic to run isn't the ideal strategy--just like using the congregation as a backstop isn't a great idea. Things like this need to be thought/planned out.

Now, am I saying that no one could ever stop a mass shooting unless they have professional training? Of course not. But this isn't about proving a point, there's an important goal at hand that goes beyond ego and that makes it worth putting in the effort to get things right.

Well, that is, of course, unless you're like me. Once I put on my gun, I gain superhero powers--I know the bad guy will always lose and I'll always save the day and get the medal.
I notice your post assumes all the team members will be carrying concealed. My congegation has a mix -- a couple wearing body armor and shirts that say SECURITY and carrying openly, the rest carrying concealed. The training and practice you advocate is definitely done, and local PD was involved in the planning. Not being on the team I don't know all the details.
 
Perhaps not, but there is definite vibe out there in the world, even among 2A advocates, that only those who meet a certain standard, criteria, or degree of professionalism should be allowed to defend themselves; the rest of us plebs can go jump in a lake. It's something of a "let them eat cake" mentality wherein only the police, the "band leader," or some other blessed person should be allowed to have or carry a gun because they're somehow "more qualified" to be trusted with a gun.

I sometimes get the impression that every concealed pistol carrier is an Alfa Male in their own mind, unfortunately...

"My way or the highway."
 
Finally, this whole subforum is about Strategies, Tactics and Training. It makes sense that there is going to be a focus on Strategies, Tactics and, yes, Training.

I didn't mean to pull the discussion away form its original intent. I'm aware of just how incredibly serious that is on this site. I will defer back to the original discussion at hand.
 
In the large urban environment where I live, the bishop is an outspoken opponent of firearms. Security at our church is all but non-existent, notwithstanding the shocking number of shootings that occur in our city each week, as well as in Houses of Worship across the country. Consequently, Mrs. PC and I don't attend as frequently as we used to and take what steps we think appropriate to enhance our safety.

Evidently the bishop doesn't understand that "Hope is not a plan."


I just received a phone call from a friend of 30 years' duration who lives in Mountain Brook, AL, a beautiful suburb of Birmingham. I didn't realize it but the Vestavia Hills church where Thursday's shooting took place is where his children went to pre-school and where three of them, now grown, married, and with children of their own, all worship. Two of the three victims were family friends.

He couldn't find the words to describe the devastation they all feel, nor could I find any that offered comfort. But he did quote that familiar refrain, "If it can happen here, it can happen anywhere."

That's something church leaders who leave their flocks vulnerable to would-be wolves ought to carefully contemplate, for they could well be next.
 
My fellow security dude was gone today. As far as I know I was the only one in the church that was armed. That doesn't bother me too much...but I almost stayed home to replant beans today. If I had, the church would have been unarmed. That wouldn't have worried me 10yrs ago....
It does now.
 

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As someone looking for a church this thread speaks volumes. Also just in general freedom and 2A.

I don't go anywhere outside of govt facilities where I can't carry. A church is no acception.

I guess those of us not "trained" enough to be part of the "church security team" shouldn't be able to carry in general public either.

Its all so tiresome....
If a church required a yearly qual shoot to demonstrate proficiency would you participate to carry in church?
 
Wow, it should not be up to a single person such as a prayer leader, but I would think a committee, or the board of elders, something like that.

Prayer leader has a lot more weight than he should. Even as a temporary position. The board of directors and lay leadership both want the security team reformed. Congregation membership is only 10 or 20% of what it was prior to Covid. And the lax approach to security under the new leadership has been the majority force behind that decline, more than Covid.

Any case back on topic. Our security team, when it was active, comprised of about 8 armed, concealed members. Myself was one of them. The rest of the staff that sat in on meetings were people that needed to be "in the know" about how situations would be handled, everything from a fire to an active shooter. Our most active meeting involved about 25 people out of a 100 people weekly congregation. Large events would go up to 400, depending on the holiday or event. That was the meeting when we showed staff remotes that we put a key places in the building. There were two buttons: natural disaster such as fire, tornado, hurricane. And man problem: active shooter, robbery etc. The remote would alert the police substation a few blocks away of whichever button was pushed. A security team should know what they are going to do in a multitude of emergencies, not just an active shooter.
 
If you disagree this vehemently with your church over whether you can carry a gun in their building, how are you ever going to find agreement on doctrinal issues?

Whether or not I can carry a gun at church isn't anywhere on my list of considerations. Let's assume I feel that God has led me to attend "Bob's Church" and I go to "Bob's Church" and I find out it's posted I assume God (being God) knew that when He sent me there and I go in and sit down. My church requires six month attendance before you can serve as a volunteer in any capacity. before I applied to be a security team member no one in that church except my wife knew I carried in church. I've attended my church for 13 years, had I not volunteered to be part of the security team they still wouldn't know I carried a gun.
 
If you disagree this vehemently with your church over whether you can carry a gun in their building, how are you ever going to find agreement on doctrinal issues?

You raise a good point. I'm pretty irked at the moment over this issue, but I've not once thought I should move on.
 
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Our church security I sit in the back in the last pew and can see anyone coming in from the front doors or the back doors also when the back doors open you can feel a slight breeze everytime winter or summer so even if you are speaking you can feel it. Still need to stay alert but every little advantage helps. Do I carry yes I do
 
Our church security I sit in the back in the last pew and can see anyone coming in from the front doors or the back doors also when the back doors open you can feel a slight breeze everytime winter or summer so even if you are speaking you can feel it. Still need to stay alert but every little advantage helps. Do I carry yes I do

Has the leadership of your church asked you to provide security or have you taken the position upon your self?
 
This Almost Deserves Its Own Discussion.

Church security seems to be a frequent topic of discussion on gun forums and understandably so.

But it seems that every time this topic comes up somebody announces that they are the security for their Church or that they have taken it upon themselves to "Stand watch over the Flock" ( Wait, didn't God put the pastor in that position? Like literally that's what the word means).

I may be wrong but the implication I got from such statements is that the person making the statement has appointed themselves to that position without consulting the headship of the church.

In my opinion this causes more problems than it solves. The biggest example that I can point to is Larry Bourbonnais. He's the guy that tried to take a gun from one of the security staff at New Life Church and join the fight. He ended up getting, I'm not even sure he was shot I think he got hit by Bullet fragments bouncing off a wall. And he caused a big stink in the church and got kicked out.
 
We have a Security Ministry made up of off-duty officers/deputies from the City and County who attend church.

I know them and trust them.

Every disturbance we have had in the last five (5) years was handled without violence by ultimately embracing the person causing the disturbance.

Jesus Christ commanded us to love one another to the same measure He loved us. That means we look for an opportunity to help the disruptor, rather than just kill them.
 
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