Best Self Defense Method..Hand to hand?
- Thread starter Northslope Nimrod
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Risasi- I guess I've found that the coordination, strength, speed, reaction time, endurance, aggression, ability to function while being hit full force, etc. that I have gained in practice has helped me win a real fight or two. This can't be developed at all by sitting on your behind watching CSI instead of practicing. The same goes for shooting, give me Rob Letham any day over a guy who doesn't practice at all because he believes that a real shootout is 180 degrees from practice shooting. I agree that practice doesn't universally help people, for example I know some people who train constantly that would be a butterfly in a streetfight. But it certainly can't hurt unless you're brainwashed to think you're invincible or that the fight is a predictable thing.
That's the problem Daniel,
Many guys are brainwashed into thinking a fight without rules, on the street, is predictable, and that they are invincible.
Look I'm not knocking what you do. But consider for a moment what the vast majority of the martial arts community is doing. They are selling you their services to "train" you. They are getting money from you. Do you think most of them would risk threatening their main form of monetary income and tell you that you suck? No, they simply move you through the process of gaining the next belt color, which if you ask the reasonably honest artist he'll admit that belt means nothing.
So many of these dojos are simply processing people through a system that gives them a paper and pushes them out the door. That's all well and fine, but to many trainees this gives them a false sense of security. They think they're pretty tough now. This is like browsing the internet with an Anti-virus package installed, but is expired. Or an Anti-virus that only protects you against SOME threats. Yeah, you got it's Anti-virus, but it's not going to protect you very well, and even less so as more time passes.
Same thing with hand to hand skills. What if you come up against a guy with a knife, and he knows how to use it? AND you've never trained for this. I'll tell you this much, you won't know he's got the knife until he is on top of you. What if you are a grappler and go down to the ground? Now you got a guy who is armed, on the ground way too close to you for comfort. I'll give the armed guy the advantage.
Anyway, you don't fit the average. It sounds like for you it's a constant conditioning process. So you got that going for you. For most though it's not.
I myself used to train about 4 fours a day, nearly every day when I was younger. Nope, not anymore. I would be very apprehensive about getting into any kind of physical fight.
You know I would like to hear some of the details of your fight(s). I always like to play barca lounger quarterback.
Were you jumped? Were weapons involved? How many vs how many? Etc. If you don't care to talk about it I won't be upset either.
[Edit]: P.S. CSI? I guess a TV show? Sorry I haven't watched regular broadcast TV in over a half a decade now. I think the last show I followed was Cheers. TV is pretty hokey anymore...
Many guys are brainwashed into thinking a fight without rules, on the street, is predictable, and that they are invincible.
Look I'm not knocking what you do. But consider for a moment what the vast majority of the martial arts community is doing. They are selling you their services to "train" you. They are getting money from you. Do you think most of them would risk threatening their main form of monetary income and tell you that you suck? No, they simply move you through the process of gaining the next belt color, which if you ask the reasonably honest artist he'll admit that belt means nothing.
So many of these dojos are simply processing people through a system that gives them a paper and pushes them out the door. That's all well and fine, but to many trainees this gives them a false sense of security. They think they're pretty tough now. This is like browsing the internet with an Anti-virus package installed, but is expired. Or an Anti-virus that only protects you against SOME threats. Yeah, you got it's Anti-virus, but it's not going to protect you very well, and even less so as more time passes.
Same thing with hand to hand skills. What if you come up against a guy with a knife, and he knows how to use it? AND you've never trained for this. I'll tell you this much, you won't know he's got the knife until he is on top of you. What if you are a grappler and go down to the ground? Now you got a guy who is armed, on the ground way too close to you for comfort. I'll give the armed guy the advantage.
Anyway, you don't fit the average. It sounds like for you it's a constant conditioning process. So you got that going for you. For most though it's not.
I myself used to train about 4 fours a day, nearly every day when I was younger. Nope, not anymore. I would be very apprehensive about getting into any kind of physical fight.
You know I would like to hear some of the details of your fight(s). I always like to play barca lounger quarterback.
Were you jumped? Were weapons involved? How many vs how many? Etc. If you don't care to talk about it I won't be upset either.
[Edit]: P.S. CSI? I guess a TV show? Sorry I haven't watched regular broadcast TV in over a half a decade now. I think the last show I followed was Cheers. TV is pretty hokey anymore...
Glock Glockler
Member
Risasi,
I agree that bad training can be worse than no training, but why not train smart? Just something as simple as sneaking in a quick sucker punch and a good follow up can enable someone to come out on top over much bigger opponents, why would it be bad to practice things suck as that?
In my MA club I have learned a LOT of very simple and practical things to do in various situations that I would not have know if I had not been training, it seems the real question would be whether or not your training is productive.
I agree that bad training can be worse than no training, but why not train smart? Just something as simple as sneaking in a quick sucker punch and a good follow up can enable someone to come out on top over much bigger opponents, why would it be bad to practice things suck as that?
In my MA club I have learned a LOT of very simple and practical things to do in various situations that I would not have know if I had not been training, it seems the real question would be whether or not your training is productive.
Glock Glockler:
Now that's the spirit!!! I concur, do you concur?
BTW: Try to find a weapon before you do it. I'd rather smack a guy with anything vs my empty fist. Even punching with a rock in my hand is gonna make it pretty nasty for him. And a roll pf pennies is almost as good as a blackjack or knuckles. Pretty cheap weapon too. (Hey, that reminds me I wonder if a roll of pennies are banned on airline flights?
)
No I completely agree with you about training with real world scenarios. But that's not the average gym. How many are going to tell you to throw the first punch? Or hit a guy with a makeshift weapon. That's lethal force. They could get sued for that...No better to "achieve total consciousness while finding your innerself, reflecting this back to your opponent in a non-aggressive way. Blah, blah, blah..."
If it's straight tactics and real fighting, and cut throat take every advantage you can type stuff that's perfect. No fancy dance moves and hard to remember routines that's great. Save the pretty stuff for the figure skaters.
Now that's the spirit!!!
I concur, do you concur?BTW: Try to find a weapon before you do it. I'd rather smack a guy with anything vs my empty fist. Even punching with a rock in my hand is gonna make it pretty nasty for him. And a roll pf pennies is almost as good as a blackjack or knuckles. Pretty cheap weapon too. (Hey, that reminds me I wonder if a roll of pennies are banned on airline flights?
)No I completely agree with you about training with real world scenarios. But that's not the average gym. How many are going to tell you to throw the first punch? Or hit a guy with a makeshift weapon. That's lethal force. They could get sued for that...No better to "achieve total consciousness while finding your innerself, reflecting this back to your opponent in a non-aggressive way. Blah, blah, blah..."
If it's straight tactics and real fighting, and cut throat take every advantage you can type stuff that's perfect. No fancy dance moves and hard to remember routines that's great. Save the pretty stuff for the figure skaters.
Okay, I'm done. I'm getting off of my soapbox. Honest.
I think I've relayed what I have been trying to say. I'm NOT saying don't train. But I am saying if you are just going to play at training that's not training. That's just boosting your ego, which can make you a lazy fighter, or lead to a false sense of security for many. And if you don't run from the wrong kind of fight, (that you should have been more careful to avoid in the first place). Or even worse pick a fight because you feel some bozo "dissed" you, you are in for a wake up call.
At best you learn the hard way (or maybe you don't), and come to the realization your aren't so tough.
On the worst side of things your dead. That simple.
Just so you know I've been training in all sorts of armed and unarmed combative arts for about 17 years now. Some seriously, some not so seriously. This includes knife and sword play. Let me tell you this as another example fencing has nothing to do with using a real rapier. Or any other sword for that matter.
When I was a teenager I remember during ball practice we had a bully on the team. This one time I said the wrong thing and I saw he was going to attack me. Mean cur. So I had been training for a few years by now. I hauled off and kicked him so hard with a sweeping side kick in the guts I thought I almost broke my foot off in his stomach. Cleats too. Well he let out this "whoo-oof" sound, and doubled over. So here you go a kid who has a strong kick, who basically got first shot, on a surprised opponent, not familiar with a kicker. Well imagine my shock when a half a second later he unfolds and now I see he's so mad he doesn't even feel pain. Well that was one unblinding moment of truth for me. I'm like "uh-oh, no he didn't". I got smart, I let him charge, and ended up grabbing his jersey and used his own momentum to flip him in a back roll over me. He landed on his back, from about a foot and a half drop. He let's out another "whoo-off" sound. I'm up fast. So is he. 
That was unblinding moment of truth number two. He was like the terminator of something. Even the stab of the cleats didn't stop him. Fortunately the coach saw what was going on and separated us pretty quick. But I have no doubt in my mind my goose was cooked if he hadn't been there. Me, the guy with all the training. The "superior" fighter. I'm just glad he didn't have a bat or something at the time. Now this kid was a true street tough. He learned just by fighting, and he messed up a lot of guys back then. What do you do with a guy who takes ten of your best straights to the face? Now he's pissed and all you've done is bust your hand on his face.
Anyway, that's my first real fight. And I lucked out. Big time. So I'll just leave you with that as food for thought.
I think I've relayed what I have been trying to say. I'm NOT saying don't train. But I am saying if you are just going to play at training that's not training. That's just boosting your ego, which can make you a lazy fighter, or lead to a false sense of security for many. And if you don't run from the wrong kind of fight, (that you should have been more careful to avoid in the first place). Or even worse pick a fight because you feel some bozo "dissed" you, you are in for a wake up call.
At best you learn the hard way (or maybe you don't), and come to the realization your aren't so tough.
On the worst side of things your dead. That simple.
Just so you know I've been training in all sorts of armed and unarmed combative arts for about 17 years now. Some seriously, some not so seriously. This includes knife and sword play. Let me tell you this as another example fencing has nothing to do with using a real rapier. Or any other sword for that matter.
When I was a teenager I remember during ball practice we had a bully on the team. This one time I said the wrong thing and I saw he was going to attack me. Mean cur. So I had been training for a few years by now. I hauled off and kicked him so hard with a sweeping side kick in the guts I thought I almost broke my foot off in his stomach. Cleats too. Well he let out this "whoo-oof" sound, and doubled over. So here you go a kid who has a strong kick, who basically got first shot, on a surprised opponent, not familiar with a kicker. Well imagine my shock when a half a second later he unfolds and now I see he's so mad he doesn't even feel pain.
Well that was one unblinding moment of truth for me. I'm like "uh-oh, no he didn't". I got smart, I let him charge, and ended up grabbing his jersey and used his own momentum to flip him in a back roll over me. He landed on his back, from about a foot and a half drop. He let's out another "whoo-off" sound. I'm up fast. So is he. That was unblinding moment of truth number two. He was like the terminator of something. Even the stab of the cleats didn't stop him. Fortunately the coach saw what was going on and separated us pretty quick. But I have no doubt in my mind my goose was cooked if he hadn't been there. Me, the guy with all the training. The "superior" fighter. I'm just glad he didn't have a bat or something at the time. Now this kid was a true street tough. He learned just by fighting, and he messed up a lot of guys back then. What do you do with a guy who takes ten of your best straights to the face? Now he's pissed and all you've done is bust your hand on his face. Anyway, that's my first real fight. And I lucked out. Big time. So I'll just leave you with that as food for thought.
Ivy Mike
Member
Tallpine, your attitude towards training kinda worries me. While you don't have to be keen on bowing to an instructor, your mention of not wanting to pay to get beat up isn't a realistic goal.
The only way to learn how to fight is to actually do it...or come as close as possible without causing serious injury. I come home from my Krav Maga sore from the conditioning AND from the sparring when we do fight classes. I have come home with fat lips and black eyes. One of the worst came from a botched attempt to hit a smaller attacker. She attempted a block, but I stumbled and she hit me square in the eye (accident of course)
Think of it like high school football or working on an old car. You can't learn it by watching film or reading a manual. You actually have to suit up and do it or pop that hood and get dirty. You will screw up and it will hurt, but in the end, you busted knuckles will reward you. You'll have a great running car and be able to defend it and the head cheerleader riding shotgun.
The only way to learn how to fight is to actually do it...or come as close as possible without causing serious injury. I come home from my Krav Maga sore from the conditioning AND from the sparring when we do fight classes. I have come home with fat lips and black eyes. One of the worst came from a botched attempt to hit a smaller attacker. She attempted a block, but I stumbled and she hit me square in the eye (accident of course)
Think of it like high school football or working on an old car. You can't learn it by watching film or reading a manual. You actually have to suit up and do it or pop that hood and get dirty. You will screw up and it will hurt, but in the end, you busted knuckles will reward you. You'll have a great running car and be able to defend it and the head cheerleader riding shotgun.
bowing to an instructor is a form of respect,which he returns,it is not a one way street.it is also somewhat analogous to rising when the judge enters the court room,everybody acknowledges courts in session,everyone acknowledges the class has started. also it helps avoid confusion.an instructor may have more than one thing going on in class,thus the bows or at least a nod of the head indicate instructions have been transmitted or received much like a salute in a military or police setting.and i have heard Englishmen are more prone to make a short bow when introduced rather than shake hands.
Tallpine
Regarding bowing: When I was teaching Tae Kwon Do, I used to tell new students that in order to get respect, you first need to give respect. Thus the importance of properly bowing. You would initiate a bow to anyone who outranked you and they in turn would bow back. As you achieve rank, the same respect would be shown to you by lower ranked practitioners.
In Band of Brothers there was a line about saluting: "You salute the rank, not the man". That's another good way to look at it. A "martial" art is a "military" art by definition. You should not be surprised that there is some sort of salute involved.
I had the unfortunate occurence to find myself in a fight with a Tae Kwon Do black belt one time. I didn't know this until afterwards and others told me about it. Anyways he rushed me and within two seconds the fight was over and he was on the ground and I was on him throwing punches to the head. Realizing at this time he was neutralized I quickly disengaged and retreated. I hardly even remember what happened because it was all adrenaline and instinct. I'm not proud of hurting someone and I don't mean for this to sound arrogant, but his training really didn't do him a lick of good when it came to it.
I'm not going to go into the cause of it other than to say he was the aggressor.
Mikul
Member
Forget about style. It's not important. The mindset of the instructor is. I've taken classes from several instructors, and the reason I didn't stay with one is because I was looking for one who would teach me to fight. Sure, I learned the moves and the techniques, but no one would mistake our practice sessions for fighting.
One teacher at least had us sparring regularly. It's better than practicing against nobody until I realized that we all trained together and all knew what to expect. In my last class, I started fighting dirty and more like a street-fighter. It turned out to be easy to knock all but the instructor around and he didn't find my antics amusing (read: OUCH!). He wanted to teach people how to PERFORM American Karate, not fight. That's fine, but not what I was looking for.
Two of the best styles of fighting I have seen are Aikido and Judo. A 2nd level black-belt or above has amazing levels of improvisation which is crucial in a fight. All of his moves are simple, almost child-like and completely deflate incoming attacks. I sparred against a 5th degree (for a demonstration), and he knocked me about with little effort by using his, rather large, beer belly. The down-side to Aikido is that you can't do much of anything until you've reached first or second black belt. I like judo because whenever I've seen or been in fights, they always wind up on the floor. Nobody seems to practice fighting on the floor except for Judo (yes, and a couple of others). Judo's MO seems to be "Take them to the floor and do mean things to them." Ever see a 12 year-old knock out a 38 year old... I have.
One teacher at least had us sparring regularly. It's better than practicing against nobody until I realized that we all trained together and all knew what to expect. In my last class, I started fighting dirty and more like a street-fighter. It turned out to be easy to knock all but the instructor around and he didn't find my antics amusing (read: OUCH!). He wanted to teach people how to PERFORM American Karate, not fight. That's fine, but not what I was looking for.
Two of the best styles of fighting I have seen are Aikido and Judo. A 2nd level black-belt or above has amazing levels of improvisation which is crucial in a fight. All of his moves are simple, almost child-like and completely deflate incoming attacks. I sparred against a 5th degree (for a demonstration), and he knocked me about with little effort by using his, rather large, beer belly. The down-side to Aikido is that you can't do much of anything until you've reached first or second black belt. I like judo because whenever I've seen or been in fights, they always wind up on the floor. Nobody seems to practice fighting on the floor except for Judo (yes, and a couple of others). Judo's MO seems to be "Take them to the floor and do mean things to them." Ever see a 12 year-old knock out a 38 year old... I have.
in another thread i said all the black belts at my school had their ccws and all shoot frequently.i think this would be a good indicator of a prospective school. when we saw the movie fight club we all said we've been there for a long time. you had to fight the first night at our school.it made for a high drop out rate,but very little complaining about the product.
St. Gunner
Member
Practice avoidance at all costs, if that fails, learn to fight like a cornered grizzly. I grew up in a very rough part of a very large town, fighting was a very common occurance in my youth. I lost the first 3 fights I was ever in, just flat out got whipped. I've had a bunch since then and haven't lost one. A street fight is more about mindset than anything and inflicting maximum damage with minimum expendature. You will be facing his buddies, sometimes your reaction to the original threat and your handling of it, will get you a break with his buddies.
If Frankie who is supposed to be the meanest toughest son of a gun in the world is laying on the pavement with his jaw set off to one side and leaking blood after he busted you in the kidney first, it makes an impression on Biff and Jim and often they decide to leave you be.
Make your move, cripple your foe quickly and seperate as soon as possible.
Last incident I had a young gangbanger snuck up behind me when I was unloading a trailer of hay at a feedstore and was all alone. He whacked me with the flat side of a pallet slat across the back of the head. Now the fact I am a large redneck and possibly hard headed meant I sorta went, "Huh?" I thought something had fallen off the barn and hit me. I turned to see stupid with this pallet slat in hand and a funny look on his face.
My right foot found his balls, then my knee found his face, then my right elbow found his eye socket.
He literally bounced when he hit the pavement, it was over in less time than it took to type that. The last shot crushed his eye socket, I could feel the crush, I weigh 230lbs and I put every ounce of it behind that shot. But the thing was he had two buddies that where supposed to be back-up, they dropped back and quit instantly. That wasn't the first time that had happened, if you create the impression that messing with you will get them crippled, you can and normally will defuse the situation from going any further which is the ultimate goal, restore order.
You don't want to learn a skill that involves long drawn out punching battles, or skills that work towards negating the attacks effectiveness, all those leave you vulnerable. I learned what I know at the school of hard knocks and on streets and alleys in a rough part of town. I figure you probably can't learn it anywhere else. But it also means I have scar tissue all over my knuckles, i've had fractures in my hands from impacting people and everyday I feel the reminders of why escaping is the greatest defense of all.
You want to learn how to win a street fight, go get in one, you will learn to think on your feet while in action. It'll also serve as a reminder of why you don't want to be in one ever again. The fact is if you don't end the fight almost instantly you will be hit multiple times and you will hurt and be injured.
My impression of martial artists in general when it comes to a fight in real time and real situations is when things aren't based on their knowns and practiced situations, they freeze. I had one incident where an older young man who had 5 yrs of Hapkido training decided he didn't like me dating his girlfriend(I didn't know). He had two buddies along and they caught me walking with her one evening at a street dance; his name was Frankie...
Go find a gym that stresses you learning what you can do and helping to coach you along those lines. Find one that teaches it is ok to toss dirt in his eyes, or if he gets you on the ground it is ok to bite his ear off, or munch a finger. Fighting is about survival and winning and making sure you do it quickly with as little damage as you can to yourself...
But take it from an idiot who didn't learn until way to late in life... Fighting should always be the last resort, avoid it at all costs...
If Frankie who is supposed to be the meanest toughest son of a gun in the world is laying on the pavement with his jaw set off to one side and leaking blood after he busted you in the kidney first, it makes an impression on Biff and Jim and often they decide to leave you be.
Make your move, cripple your foe quickly and seperate as soon as possible.
Last incident I had a young gangbanger snuck up behind me when I was unloading a trailer of hay at a feedstore and was all alone. He whacked me with the flat side of a pallet slat across the back of the head. Now the fact I am a large redneck and possibly hard headed meant I sorta went, "Huh?" I thought something had fallen off the barn and hit me. I turned to see stupid with this pallet slat in hand and a funny look on his face.
My right foot found his balls, then my knee found his face, then my right elbow found his eye socket.
He literally bounced when he hit the pavement, it was over in less time than it took to type that. The last shot crushed his eye socket, I could feel the crush, I weigh 230lbs and I put every ounce of it behind that shot. But the thing was he had two buddies that where supposed to be back-up, they dropped back and quit instantly. That wasn't the first time that had happened, if you create the impression that messing with you will get them crippled, you can and normally will defuse the situation from going any further which is the ultimate goal, restore order.
You don't want to learn a skill that involves long drawn out punching battles, or skills that work towards negating the attacks effectiveness, all those leave you vulnerable. I learned what I know at the school of hard knocks and on streets and alleys in a rough part of town. I figure you probably can't learn it anywhere else. But it also means I have scar tissue all over my knuckles, i've had fractures in my hands from impacting people and everyday I feel the reminders of why escaping is the greatest defense of all.
You want to learn how to win a street fight, go get in one, you will learn to think on your feet while in action. It'll also serve as a reminder of why you don't want to be in one ever again. The fact is if you don't end the fight almost instantly you will be hit multiple times and you will hurt and be injured.
My impression of martial artists in general when it comes to a fight in real time and real situations is when things aren't based on their knowns and practiced situations, they freeze. I had one incident where an older young man who had 5 yrs of Hapkido training decided he didn't like me dating his girlfriend(I didn't know). He had two buddies along and they caught me walking with her one evening at a street dance; his name was Frankie...
Go find a gym that stresses you learning what you can do and helping to coach you along those lines. Find one that teaches it is ok to toss dirt in his eyes, or if he gets you on the ground it is ok to bite his ear off, or munch a finger. Fighting is about survival and winning and making sure you do it quickly with as little damage as you can to yourself...
But take it from an idiot who didn't learn until way to late in life... Fighting should always be the last resort, avoid it at all costs...
If fast results is your primary concern, you're best served finding a good boxing gym. You'll get cardio work, strength conditioning, and plenty of live sparring. Depending on your area, Muy Thai can fill a similar need.
Common thought these days is to mix a striking style (such as those listed above) with a good grappling system. Brazilian Jiu Jitsu is the style de jour, but catch-wrestling and shoot fighting schools have plenty to offer as well.
I wouldn't bother with any CMA (kung fu) unless you're willing to put in a fair amount of time (anywhere from a year to five years, depending on the instructor and style) to see a payoff. The upside is a potentially very high level of skill and conditioning for the dedicated student, as well as health benefits that are hard to find elsewhere. Are you more likely to be killed by a mugger or heart disease? Just a thought
In any case, don't get involved in a program that doesn't emphasize plenty of live sparring/rolling and live drills. Forms and stance training certainly have their place, but they won't make you a capable fighter on their own.
Common thought these days is to mix a striking style (such as those listed above) with a good grappling system. Brazilian Jiu Jitsu is the style de jour, but catch-wrestling and shoot fighting schools have plenty to offer as well.
I wouldn't bother with any CMA (kung fu) unless you're willing to put in a fair amount of time (anywhere from a year to five years, depending on the instructor and style) to see a payoff. The upside is a potentially very high level of skill and conditioning for the dedicated student, as well as health benefits that are hard to find elsewhere. Are you more likely to be killed by a mugger or heart disease? Just a thought
In any case, don't get involved in a program that doesn't emphasize plenty of live sparring/rolling and live drills. Forms and stance training certainly have their place, but they won't make you a capable fighter on their own.
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