Paintball?

[ASHeat]

First of let me say I'm not a firearms instructor, I don't claim to be an expert. Nor have I been through a firearms course. I was an USMC infantryman(0311) from 04-08. Which is solely where I was trained in the use of firearms and other weapons. I only own 1 pistol and get to the range once a month if I'm lucky.

That being said let me show you where I am coming from(please bear with me). I am a martial artist. Ive been a martial artist since I was 6, I'm 23 now. For the last 5-6 years I've been training in MMA styles BJJ, Muay Thai, Wrestling, Boxing. I also trained in MCMAP, which is similar to Krav Maga, and was a Brown Belt instructor in it. Now there is a big issue in the Martial arts community about MMA being too sport oriented for combat because of the rules in place for competition. That being said I(and many others) believe someone who trains MMA has an edge in an unarmed scenario. This isn't because of the realism of MMA vs the realism of Krav Maga. I don't think any MMA/BJJ/Muay Thai guy is going to argue Krav and like arts offer more realism in "self defense training". The edge MMA fighters have on everyone else is how oriented the training is to sparring, and full contact fighting. Basically most MMA forces you to fight or spar full contact in some capacity at least a couple times a week. Thus not only do you have to condition yourself for such an exercise, but get a lot of experience in something as close as you can safely come to simulating an actual fight.

Once again, as I'm sure there are Krav Maga or TMA proponents on here. I'm not insulting it. I actually believe Krav to be the best option in self defense for someone who wants to learn to defend themselves fast, and has no interest in starting Martial arts as a hobby. MMA is a time/money sink to say the least. I also don't hate TMA's. As far as hobbies go I think TMA's offer an acceptable level of self defense while offering an activity rich in history. Furthermore I'd prefer this thread not devolve into a my Martial Art is better than yours argument. We can do that on numerous other websites.

On to the point. In my day dreaming I have come to the conclusion that paintball is the closest you can come to "full contact shooting". While watching paintball competition on ESPN I saw them use techniques I learned in the Marine Corps. They knew how to bound, rush, pop corners, and pie at least. While I wouldn't say paintballing would directly translate into shooting like MMA translates in unarmed combat(after all a Krav practioners fist is the same as a MMA fighters fist, the same can not be said of a paintball gun to an actual firearm). It does seem paintballing would be an excellent exercise to add to one training regime. Similar to the way I'm told Krav schools have full contact sparring and grappling every once in a while. No one is saying to go join a paintball league. But I can't see how it would hurt...

What are some opinions on this? I trust more in your expertise on the subject than my own. Because, as stated I'm not a firearm tactics expert in any way, shape, or form. Do you think occasionally going paint balling would be a good addition to tactical firearms training, in the same vein sparring is to Martial Arts? Why, or why not?

**I understand Sim rounds would probably be a better option, but they are very expensive and certain people might have problems with it depending on where you would practice. For instance I doubt a paintball facility would let you use a AR15 with a sim round barrel, and that combined with the price would affect the amount of practice you could engage in.**

Sorry for the rant,

Adam

 

[il_10]

Check into airsoft. It takes a lot of flak on these boards, likely due to the models that most people see, which are poorly made, cheap plastic pieces at the local wal-mart. The high end stuff has a lot of features that you don't get with paintball, and I've been using airsoft gear for FOF and handling purposes for a looong time, as well as playing for the fun of it.

For one thing, they're less dangerous. With sidearms and stock long arms, you're generally staying in the area of 1-3 joules of energy, whereas paintball can be in the range of 10+ easily. Granted, that's over a smaller surface that doesn't have as much give, but check into some of the injuries caused by the two and you'll see pretty quick who comes out safer. Make no mistake, they'll take out teeth and eyes and sting enough that you don't want to get hit, but they won't kill you without MAJOR upgrades to absurd velocities.

They're more accurate due to the design of the projectiles and the implementation. A soft ball filled with liquid is not very ballistically stable, a solid sphere is far better for flight. Further, airsoft almost always implements what's known as "hop up," which puts a backspin on the bb to generate enough lift to keep its trajectory flat through most of its flight. There are paintball barrels that do this, but they're expensive and can't be adjusted to be consistent easily. You can use sites and optics with airsoft guns that are mostly pointless with paintball. With a few upgrades to a stock long arm, you can score hits on torso-sized targets fairly consistently within 50 yards; I've build some sniper rifles capable of scoring hits out to 75 yards and there are more than a few people pushing 100, with some holdover.

They're more reliable. They don't rely on a gravity based hopper-system to feed (barring high capacity magazines). They use spring fed magazines, so they feed far more reliably, and you get to practice mag changes, something you cannot do with paintball (barring expensive RAM markers).

Handling, fire controls, and often weight and balance are accurately replicated in airsoft guns in ways that aren't possible with paintball markers. If you have a firearm, there is likely an airsoft version that you can train with for FOF, mag changes, presentation drills, TRB drills, etc. etc. These things have about as many aftermarket parts as real firearms in high-end cases, so if your trigger doesn't feel the same as the one on your real piece, you can make it feel the same, etc. etc, allowing for dry-fire practice. Or live fire practice in your house/backyard, which not everyone can do with real firearms. Gas-powered pistols have slides that recoil like actual firearms; they lock back when you're out of ammo in your magazine, etc. Recoil's comparable to a light .22 with these. There are gas-powered automatic rifles out now, and while I don't have any experience with these, they're supposed to kick pretty hard and be pretty good overall.

And likely most important, they're far cheaper. The ammo is around $20 for 5,000 or so from decent brands. Long arms run on rechargeable batteries, or manual spring-cocking mechanisms in sniper rifles, and decent handguns run on propane or "green gas" (differently bottled propane). They store the gas in their magazines; there are no tanks to fill, and you don't have to spend a fortune for the guns, either. Good sidearms run in the $100-$200 range, long arms $150+. Compare that to quality paintball markers and paintballs and you come out way ahead.

I've played both, and paintball's got its merits. It's generally not mil-sim, but it is a lot of fun. The sport appeal is completely different, but certainly more socially acceptable (i.e. you probably won't see a big mil-sim airsoft skirmish on ESPN anytime soon), but for force-on-force training, my money's on airsoft.

 

[smince]

I've learned a lot using paintball guns in simulation training with local LE, especially at night using light discipline.

However, I've learned a great deal more using the gas blow-back AirSoft guns in FoF training.

Gabe Suarez and his instructors ( www.suarezinternational.com ) teach several gunfighting classes with blocks of FoF thrown in to validate the live-fire drills. He also has a DVD strictly on AirSoft FoF:
http://www.onesourcetactical.com/force-on-forcehandgundrillsthedvd.aspx

 

[Crusader103]

ASHeat,

As a former Marine, police officer, and current firearms instructor/Army officer, let me say that you are well spoken and make some good points. However, I am generally not an advocate of paintball as the most effective way to prepare for and replicate the scenarios most of the general public are likely to be involved in.

Here's why:

Paintball is generally force on force between teams of opposing forces in an advancing on the opponent type setting of trees, fields, etc, utilzing a tool that would most resemble a rifle. I know there are exceptions and paintball can be incorporated into other roles. You make a sound point in stating that techniques of movement, taught in the military, are often employed in paintball. Nonetheless, that is not the type of situation most of THR might find themselves in.

While others frequent this forum, the defensive role of a weapon is that which is most often explored and considered outside of a military environment. That would be few rounds fired while seeking cover and moving in the opposite direction of the person(s) who wish to do you harm.

Based on that information, I do not see a strong correlation between paintball and reality based training.

That being said, in the right role of a structured training scenario for military, law enforcement tacticians, and the like there is probably a limited role that paintball could play to instill some of the effects of a force on force scenario where the targets are shooting back.

There are other ways to replicate (not duplicate) the effects of stress on a shooter and cause them to take into account the idea that their opponent will be using force against them. While it does involve expense, I am an advocate of the simunition type training (and airsoft for the budget constrained) when the training is strictly limited and supervised so as to provide actual training and not entertainment.

 

[hso]

Paintball - no.

Airsoft - yes, but... be sure you understand that it is limited to learning FoF skills in close quarters instead of marksmanship or trigger control or ...

 

[Rusty Shackleford]

It really depends on what you're trying to replicate.

Civilian self defense scenarios... Definitely NOT.
Fireteam movements on the battlefield at realistic ranges(between 100-300 yards)... Definitely NOT.



Fireteam movements while clearing a building... possibly.
Rifle skirmish simulation at less than 25 yards range... I think so.

Paintball guns are not even similar to rifles in the least out past about 25 yards. Have a skirmish at distances longer than that, and you can actually duck behind cover in time if you're quick and effectively dodge the paintball. And they aren't nearly as accurate as a real rifle even at short ranges.

When are you going to be in an active firefight with a rifle where both parties know that a fight is about to happen? No matter how you play, everyone who is partaking will be aware that they are going to be shot at, so it can't simulate defensive firearm use at all.

Give it a try and you'll realize both it's potential and it's insurmountable shortcomings. I DO think that a pro paintballer would dominate even a trained combat rifleman under very very specific circumstances... small parking lot full of cars, one on one, fight to the death with ARs or AKs. Of course the paintballer would have to constantly remind himself that only the engine block counts as cover when using real rifles.


If you ever play enough to get into competitive paintball, you'll start realizing the value of movement, firing for suppression, and how to create some sweet and glorious angles with your new fire and move skills. Those DEFINITELY apply to the real world.

Firing lane use, effective communication, constantly taking preventative measures to keep from being flanked, and teamwork will also come after a few months of competitive play. You literally CANNOT win EVER without moving and advancing on the opposing players. Be aggressive enough, fast enough... that applies to paintball too.

Give it a try, it gets the adrenaline going and is super fun. A mask is required unless you want to lose an eye. Cover as much exposed skin as you can and wear a cup. It doesn't hurt that bad, but it will sting if you let the enemy close the distance. Just remember which lessons to take home with you and which ones only apply to paintball. Especially real world penetration of rifle rounds. Check out "Box of truth" if you haven't yet.

If you have the cash, Simunitions will be as close to the real thing as you're going to get. And if you're wanting to practice fighting with pistols, you'll need to go with airsoft. Most of the same limitations apply.

 

[redbullitt]

My little brother has gotten disturbingly good at stalking me and taking me out with his airsoft rifle when I mess around with him.
The one he has is quite solid really and surprisingly entertaining. It weighs about 8 lbs and is scope accurate. With the heavier bbs he can pull COM shots out to about 60 yards or so just about every time barring heavy wind. Pop cans at 25 yards is quite doable as well.
One great thing is that if you live in a town area etc, you can still practice some shooting without putting holes in things etc. The airsoft rifle is his, where a firearm would not be appropriately all his if you get my drift. He can take it out when he wants etc.
With kids, lots of the associated skills like sighting in, cleaning, reloading (ammunition sorting for poor bbs etc) wind, and drop can translate to real shooting.
AND, playing games with the airsoft has taught him how to be patient. He does very well in deer and squirrel season and keeps our varmint numbers down.

 

[Big Boy]

I used to play semi-pro paintball on a sponsored team and I can tell you, no. It will not work for training at all. That is if you are using regular paintball guns, and going to a paintball field.

This is what paintball is really like:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W9BS0ZuklsM&feature=related

Bunkering people, doing run throughs, trading one for one's all with markers that electronically fire 15 balls a second at 200mph, and that's only because there is a cap put on them at tournaments. Most are capable of firing over 31 balls per second. It's a sport, almost like football you have a play from the beginning. You break with everyone taking a specific route, with primary and secondary bunkers, with your back players shooting lanes. You dive and slide into your bunkers to avoid the other teams lanes that they are shooting. It truly is a sport. A sport unlike any other, but still a sport. It has absolutely no worthwhile in defense training. It will be played like in the video above, you may go to a place with a woodsball field, but people are still going to play the game the same way.

However, the use of paintballs, when tweaked, could possibly be put to practical use.
A lot of the stuff from rap4, is actually used for LEO training. All of these pistols fire a .43 cal paintball rather than the standard .68 cal, and some keep the paint and gas in the grip (it will say "internal air." These guns will not be allowed on a paintball field, so don't expect that. However, if you and a buddy were to get together with them, you might be able to work out some sort of training drills.

 

[smince]

When we did tactical scenarios with LE we limited the guns to 30 balls, or we powered the guns with the 12g C02 cartridges.

That kept the round count realistic. We only did less than 30yd simulations to mimic urban rifle scenarios. So I say with the right tweaks (use your imagination and you can come up with others), it is quite usable.

 

[sonier]

I believe paintball hurts more than airsoft, thus making you not mind getting shot less likely most of us dont want to get shot. i dont like the accuracy of paintball but with the right equipment you can make close quarters become real realistic. They need to make a 30 round magazine fed ar platform paintball gun, that uses magazines from the bottom not top. I found that the hopper was a serious imposition to shooting.

 

[Big Boy]

^
Mag fed AR platform from rap4
http://www.rap4.com/paintball/os/markers-rap4-c-21_158_1109.html

 

[ASHeat]

Hi,

Thanks for the replies, apologies for the delayed response. I think I may have to look into airsoft. I seem to remember a time my entire platoon buying the clear walmart variety(which weren't very realistic) and shooting each other in the a**es while someone was sleeping, and like shenanigans. Long story short airsoft guns got banned from the barracks, and field day was hell trying to clean up all those bb's, lol. Guess I never made the correlation. Looks like there is an airsoft training range in Lorton, VA which is like 30-45 minutes from me. I may have to check it out some weekend. I'll probably still look into paintballing one of these days. Rusty Shackleford makes it sound like a good time that's right up my alley. Thanks again for the replies.

-Adam