Spanish defacto US second official language

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Tokugawa

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The debate is over folks. We have a second language and it is Spanish. When half the items I buy at the grocery store have English on one side and Spanish on the other, it's over. When the TSA tag in my lugggage is English on one side and Spanish on the other, it's over. And you know what? I don't mind Spanish speaking people at all. What I do mind is that it is being made easy and convienient to live in this country without having to learn English. We are encouraging a separate society and the balkanization of the US.
I wonder how widely the Constitution and Bill of Rights are disseminated in Spanish?
 
I can't tell if this is sarcasm or irony. A guy with the user name developed from a Japanese Screen complaining about the predominant use of Spanish in the US. :evil:
 
Does it bother you when you go to Central America, South America, Europe or Asia and everything is also printed in English?

Most retail products I see are trilingual -- also include French.
 
As long as all those Spanish speaking-people are here legally, I've got no gripe with what they do, including any refusal to learn English.

One of the great freedoms of the USA is the freedom to speak any language we want -- or refuse to speak any language we want, including English.

Thankfully, we're not like the French, who try -- by force of law -- to impose a certain language on people.
 
Only the tribalists get hung up over the sound of a word, rather than its meaning. Witness Quebec as an example, where the local tribe wanted to make all international flights coming in to use French when talking to Quebec ATC.

The United States doesn't have an official language on the national level, by the way. The de facto national language is English, but there is no official language, except at the State level in some States.
 
If I remember correctly, Texas made English the official language around 1850. Seems too many immigrants were speaking German.

Anybody know the German words for the song "Deep in the Heart of Texas?"
 
You wouldn't know it living here, just about everything that's in English is also in Spanish. I'm just waiting for the stop signs to have a line in the middle and the bottom half displaying "ALTO".
 
Heh, not sure about that. Things printed in Spanish don't bother me per se, it's the lack of force behind getting people to learn English. We have many many children born in Texas to families who speak only Spanish. Instead of teaching these kids English in school like we should, they started created separate classes taught in Spanish. So these kids will just go their whole lives never really learning English when they could easily be taught to be bilingual. That just seems idiotic to me.
 
English should remain the unifying language

English is the official language of aviation. No matter where a pilot flies to they will be able to communicate in English.

English language united the United States.

US dollars are printed in English.

My maternal greatgrandparents imigrated from Italy. When Grandma was born her parents taught her to speak English because that was THE language if you were going to be successful. Her parents even moved their family to a German immigrant neighborhood so there was no one to speak Italian to. In public school non English speaking children's desks were next to a English speaking student so they could help the other child learn English. School was taught in English.
They still kept their pride, culture, ethnic foods, religion, and they spoke English.
Grandpa immigrated on his own, got sent back because he didn't lie about his age (15), got sent back to Sicily then worked to earn enough and return 11 months later at 18yrs old. Went back to Europe as an American soldier speaking English and fought in WWI. He learned auto and aviaton mechanics in English and ran successful business in English.
Their house always flew the the American Flag. There were momentos or things from the old country in the house, but English & American was first.
Holidays were the 4th of July, Memorial Day, Veterans Day (Armistice Day as Grandma called it), Thanksgiving, Easter and Christmas, to name a few.

If people are going to live, prosper, and get along in this country they have to leave their country of origin behind and stick with the USA & English.

Since the Vietnam War there been this driven effort to unAmericanize the United States. Our educators/teachers, politicians & goverment bueracracy, big business, law enforcement, Hollywood all have their hands in it. The rest of us stood by till the monster was to big to get a rope on. Same thing is happening today with ranching and wolves, forestry and enviromentals, but that's another story.

The common denominator is the country gets split and divided.....
 
Hey, I see it as common courtesy. If I were to move to France, there's a laugh, I would damn sure learn the French language. If I were to move to Mexico, I would learn the Spanish language. I don't know about everyone else but I'm tired of the demand to be accomodating, it's backwards. But that doesn't surprise me, we have to try to be all things to all people and not offend anyone anymore. :rolleyes: Barf. :barf:
 
When I travel abroad, I am usually able to do so using 99% English. That is because American tourism dollars are important to their economy. Face it, the hispanic community in America is an economic force that is too big to ignore. It is a minority, but a significant one.
 
+1 for Harve

I don't mind, in retrospect, that the country used to have a lot of German speakers, but it sure annoyed the folks at the time.

Nobody liked it (except perhaps the Germans, although they abandoned German pretty quickly) and the antipathy varied from the "English is the official language, we started this country they should speak our language" argument to the "these people are swarthy foreigners, who the hell do they think they are?" argument.

The reason the Germans abandoned their language so easily may well be because the English speakers didn't like hearing German and didn't mind letting the Germans know.

Language is a unifying factor, and people, for good or ill, do split along ethnic lines. Difference in language serves to heighten those ethnic splits.

The problem now is that the leftitst, gun-grabbing, tax-your-azz, statist Socialists have made it "illegal" to question whether or not it is in the country's best interest for everyone to learn English. And to take it one step further are actually encouraging Hispanics not to learn English (through Spanish only schools etc.) despite the fact that most Hispanics know that English is essential to personal progress in this country.

What Shoji was saying is that this "Hispanification" serves to balkanize the country.
He is right and this argument has been put forward since the Founders for the preeminence of English.
There is no Constitutionally mandated official language just as there is no mandated religion - this is a "free" country.

But printing the laws in German and English in 1795? Little traction at all.

Political correctness and implying someone is racist does not change the facts. Making life "convenient" for one group and "respecting their ethnicity" can have negative consequences for both the group in question and the country itself.

G
 
although they abandoned German pretty quickly
That's simply not true. But don't let the facts get in your way.

For the good part of a century ("pretty quickly" only if you're a glacier or a rock) Germans attempted to keep German as their primary language, but learn English as well -- which is also the case with most of today's Spanish speaking people (the myths about refusing to speak English notwithstanding ... yes, some refuse, but most try)

http://www.ulib.iupui.edu/kade/adams/chap7.html
The following example of linguistic assimilation mirrors the experience of millions of German-Americans. A successful farmer and former carpenter emigrated from a Mosel Valley village to his relatives near Detroit in 1857, and in 1888 wrote back to his relatives in Germany: "Our eldest son Peter is now 19 years old and a first-class worker. He can do all the carpentry work according to plans. . . . What I learned in Germany with hard work and much effort he can learn here almost at a glance. Although our children all speak German and learn to read and write German at school, they are more familiar with English since it is, after all, the language of the country" [Kamphoefner, News, 200]. This perfectly natural assimilation process, accepted by the majority of German immigrants. who were seeking economic prosperity, was the primary cause for the disappearance of German as a viable vehicle of daily communication in North America. World War I, with its acute phase of cultural suppression, simply accelerated this inexorable process.

During the century preceding the First World War, a pluralistic German-language culture existed in America; as late as 1910 an estimated nine million people in the United States still spoke German as their mother tongue. They formed the broad basis for readership of a large variety of German-language newspapers and publications, supplied membership for German-language clubs and parishes, and were the force behind assorted attempts at offering German as a language of instruction, or at least as a foreign language elective, in the public schools.

Some states mandated English as the exclusive language of instruction in the public schools, while Pennsylvania and Ohio in 1839 were first in allowing German as an official alternative, even requiring it on parental demand. Some public and many private parochial schools taught exclusively in German throughout many decades, mostly in rural areas.2 But only in a few large cities, such as Baltimore, Cleveland, and Cincinnati, was it ever feasible to operate bilingual public schools, while German-Americans in Buffalo fought for it in vain in the 1860s . In St. Louis the bilingual public schools in the long run achieved the opposite of what the culturally-conscious German-Americans had expected. While four out of five children of German-American families were enrolled in a private (meaning German-language) school in 1860, in 1880 four out of five such children were enrolled in a public bilingual school. Rather than enabling those children to retain their German, the bilingual schools apparently did more to accelerate the acquisition of English.

Typically, by about 1900, German was no longer used as a primary or co-equal language of instruction in the larger cities, although it was very popular as a foreign language elective, even for children who were not of German ancestry. In Chicago, for instance, only 15,000 of the 40,000 taking German in 1900 were of German background.

Elementary school German-language enrollments reached their peak between 1880 and 1910. Around 1881, more than 160,000 pupils were attending German Catholic schools; in the same year 50,000 attended Missouri Synod Lutheran schools, which 20 years later tallied around 100,000. In Evangelical and Reformed schools there were about 20,000 children. And yet, only one-third to one-half of all baptized German Catholic or Lutheran children attended any parochial school. Of about a half million pupils counted by the German- American Teachers Association around the turn of the century, 42 percent were attending public schools, more than a third of them Catholic, 16 percent Lutheran, and the remaining seven percent Evangelical or other private schools. Hidden in these overall impressive statistics are, of course, wide-ranging variations, depending on which specific local area is being assessed.

Since the 1880s, resistance to German as a principal or co-equal language of instruction increased markedly. Illinois and Wisconsin tried in 1889-90 to limit its use, even in the private schools, although without much practical success. According to the new Bennett Law in Wisconsin, a minimum of 16 weeks in the school year was now to be dedicated to English-language instruction, and subjects like reading, writing, arithmetic and American history were to be taught wholly in English. In a quick and passionate reaction to this legislation, the Lutherans and Catholics formed an alliance to fight this perceived attack on their parochial schools. In the very next election, the Lutheran-Catholic coalition effected a quick repeal of these state laws, albeit temporary.

In their endless debates concerning the language question, German- Americans repeatedly bemoaned the lack of parental commitment for German-language retention by their children. The Social Democratic-oriented Deutsch-Amerikanische Buchdrucker-Zeitung (Oct. 16, 1902), under a headline "Deutsch in Amerika" [German in America], had this to say:

"Honor the German language! For the spirit of your forefathers is preserved in its words!" This saying has been enshrined in glass encasements or in picture frames in many a Singer or Turner hall. At many German festivals it is recited proudly with heavy emphasis on the spirit of our forebears. But in everyday life the hallowed words of the poet have had little effect. Parents sometimes grumble about the neglect German-language instruction suffers in the public schools. Some are provoked by the fact that their children who take German are sometimes deliberately denied promotion to the next grade, and they rationalize that the entire American school system is infested with Nativism. Their anger is justified! Only they forget that they themselves are primarily to blame if their children make only minimal progress in the mother tongue. German parents in America should teach their children to learn and to love the German language. They should tell them about the great deeds which the German spirit has wrought. As long as they fail to do just that, as long as they look on indifferently while their children at home speak and read almost exclusively in English, they should not be surprised if their children, even those to whom the opportunity is offered to have German-language instruction in the public schools, have very little excitement for it.

In every immigrant generation, complaints surfaced about a loss of the German language, but never as often as around 1900. When addressing the German School Society of Cleveland at its annual meeting in 1910, Pastor Karl Weiss avowed that three institutions -- the school, the family, and the Verein [club] -- were the great nurseries for the German language in his adoptive Fatherland:

"We demand for the children in our schools a brand of German language instruction that is sufficient both qualitatively and quantitatively; not that we want German placed above English -- this would be foolish and unreasonable -- for we realize that English is the language of our country and that a thorough knowledge of English is absolutely necessary for our children. No, we do not decry the language of the American, nor of anybody else; and in this respect we are again loyally dedicated to our new homeland, our American adoptive fatherland, and we know our duties as patriotic citizens.

But we do want our children and their children in their new homeland to get to know the wealth and value of the German spirit and of German culture, and we would like them to preserve it as much as possible. Our children should get to know what they owe to their German origins. They should internalize it so that they may look back with pride on the country of their forefathers, to a country and a civilization that has distinguished itself among all peoples on earth in science, art and literature, in commerce and industry as well as in all other spheres of life, and a culture that for centuries has had a most beneficial influence on this new continent. . . .

"The German mother tongue is the only means by which our children can gain a correct and true understanding for the significance of this great people from whom they or their parents descended; and therefore we want this language preserved for them; therefore we advocate German-language instruction in the schools to which we are sending our children. With and through the language, they should acquire the good, the true and the beautiful of the German way of life, of the German spirit, of the German character, of German traditions and of the German philosophy of life, by which they will become ever better Americans, by which they will become ever more valuable citizens of this great republic. . . .

German at home! That should be the highest avocation and the greatest pride of all German fathers and mothers. No matter how thorough and effective German-language instruction in the school may be, the soul, the intimacy and the depth of our mother tongue reaches its most tender expressiveness above all at home in the bosom of the family. Let the English language serve us in public life, in daily business dealings -- but at home, in the beloved home, in the sacred family circle, there let the sweet sounds of our cherished mother tongue echo forth always; for wherever this blessed medium disappears from the home, there the German character will also vanish [Karl Weiss, in Der Freidenker, May 15, 1910].


The First World War drew a sharp cutoff line for German-language instruction in the entire country, and the total ban of German hit some groups particularly hard. For the Missouri Synod Lutherans, the war and postwar hysteria in some states interdicted even the teaching of Lutheran Bible exegesis in German. In the words of the state legislature of Nebraska in April 1919: "No person, individually or as a teacher, shall, in any private, denominational, parochial or public school teach any subject to any person in any language other than the English language." One state representative typified the majority opinion when he said: "If these people are Americans, let them speak our language. If they don't know it, let them learn it. If they don't like it, let them move. . . ." It was this law the U. S. Supreme Court declared unconstitutional -- but not until 1923 -- thereby restoring the right of Americans to learn and be instructed in a foreign language (Nebraska vs. Meyer) [Rippley, 1984, 125].
 
How does this thread go from "Spanish defacto US second official language" to an historic cut and paste account of some German immigrant (who probably came here legally in the first place?)

El Tejon sets up the strawman, and cuchulainn hijacks the thread. :rolleyes:
 
Linguists

I'm not good at languages other than English. I can get along in French, and probably Spanish. When one visits Europe, one finds most people speak more than one language. I think that is cool.
English, however has, IIRC, many more words than any other language, allowing communication to take on explicit, subtle nuances, not dependent on context.
 
RileyMC: How does this thread go from "Spanish defacto US second official language" to an historic cut and paste account of some German immigrant (who probably came here legally in the first place?)
1) Try paying attention to the conversation before commenting on it. GT made a flatly wrong statement about Germans abandoning German "pretty quickly." I posted evidence that he was wrong.

2) Try reading what I posted before commenting on it. Only the first paragraph is about "some German immigrant;" the rest of the paragraphs are about the Germans -- in general -- attempting to retain German for the better part of a century (which shows GT's claim to be false).

RileyMC: El Tejon sets up the strawman, and cuchulainn hijacks the thread.
Actually, you're the one trying to hijack the thread. That statement is nothing but a thinly-veiled ad hominem. I don't know what you've got against El Tejon, but you're still sore with me about a thread that ended yesterday. Dude, it's been nearly 24 hours. Deal with it.
 
Riley ~

The point was that the sky is not falling. Other generations have dealt with these exact same issues, with the exact same arguments, and the country is still here.

If you couldn't follow that logic, I'm sorry for you.

pax

In times like these, it helps to recall that there have always been times like these. -- Paul Harvey
 
Immigrant Germans in the 1850's have absolutely nothing to do with Spanish as a defacto second language in the U.S. in 2005 and you both know it.

Government and business did not print information in German, nor did they provide German interpreters at public expense to accomodate Germans in 1850. That's just for starters.

Every time someone opens a discussion of the illegal immigrant problem here, El Tejon attempts to equate illegal Mexicans with Germans, Irish, Polish immigrants 150 years ago. It most assuredly is a strawman and another attempted hijack.
 
The issue is that Spanish should not be gaining traction as a second language based on the presence of illegal aliens and their offspring. English fluency is supposed to be a requirement for legal citizenship last time I checked.

And...

In a nation based on the rule of law you have a nation based on language, on the nuances of semantic interpretation.

The upshot of what's going is the eventual dismemberment of America as we know it. Of course, at the same time, we are Americanizing, linguistically and commercially, the rest of the globe. It could be worse.
 
More apologigies for millions of criminals who violate the law. How quaint. Illogical and hypocritiacl and in the end devastating, but there it is.
 
RileyMC: Government and business did not print information in German
Here's a thousand words for you.
illus37.jpg


RileyMC: Every time someone opens a discussion of the illegal immigrant problem here, El Tejon attempts to equate illegal Mexicans with Germans, Irish, Polish immigrants 200 years ago. It most assuredly is a strawman
Learn the definition of strawman before you use it. I think the term you're looking for is red herring.

In any event, the German example is not a red herring (or a strawman). It's relevant because:

1) We have people claiming that a large influx of people who do not speak English as their primary language will somehow destroy the nation.

2) We show that the nation already has survived with no damage a large influx of people who do not speak English as their primary language.

The only difference is that now it is Spanish and then it was German.

and another attempted hijack.
You're the one trying to turn this into something about El Tejon and me. Who's hijacking?
 
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