National Language

[real_name]

Try moving anywhere else that does have a dominant or official language that is not your own, once there try to conduct all business, socializing and recreation in your own original language.
"But everyone speaks English so I'll be fine wherever I go."
No they don't, some people speak some English wherever you go, but the burden is on you to assimilate if you don't want to have a fractured, arduous experience living in that country. Which is how I imagine it is for Hispanics here now as most Americans speak little to no Spanish. It creates a language barrier.

What is it I'm missing from the other side of this discussion?

Are those that favor no national language simply not inclined to impose any legislation on this matter in fear of being perceived as non-PC?

In a nutshell, the majority already speak a common language, it is English, if you wish to join in and not be a burden to yourself or others then speak English.

Just as I would learn Khmer if I ever do get to settle in Cambodia.

 

[Phetro]

Every day there is some Cheech cutting me off with his truck, jaywalking, etc., because his “manana” [sic] culture okays such lack of discipline or respect for simple rules.

“Racism”? Xenophobia? This example should do.

Since at least 50% of the posters I've seen agree with him (even if they don't have the fortitude to type it out as explicity as he has), are 50% of the posters here racist xenophobes? If so, are these things truly "bad?" If so, why?

 

[Koobuh]

Gee...

And here I thought I was alone in thinking this was a terrible idea.
Though, I am more against it because it is, just like the 'National Guard on the Border' dealie, a distraction disquised as an attempt at making progress.

 

[Zrex]

English has enabled them to get to know an incredibly diverse group of people throughout their lives. And they support the idea of a standard language, to help bring people together, not divide them.

What you have is people who want to learn the language doing so because it is something they value. They make the choice. They do the work. Instead it is going to be the government forcing them to do it. If someone does not want to speak the language, so what? That is their choice. How does that harm you? Even if you force them to learn enough english to pass a test, who is going to force them to speak the language? It will be exactly the same as it is now, except ?????

Exactly how will things be different if this law is passed, other than to be able to discriminate against American citizens who can't speak english good enough?


"I'm sorry Mr Fliegendekindersheisse, but I cant understand your thick accent and broken speach, so you can't get your drivers license renewed."

 

[real_name]

Exactly how will things be different if this law is passed?

Agreed, anyone can speak whatever language they like in their own home, or even 24/7 if they like.
If I want I can speak in Dutch, with a Glasgow accent and a lisp.
But it will get me nowhere in the real world.

What the Government can achieve is at the very least a minimum proficiency in English that would do away with the need for official forms to be in 20 languages like they are in the UK.

That will save money.

If we all speak English it might save a few dollars. Anyone can understand that. Even lisping Scottish Dutch guys.

 

[ArmedBear]

Zrex, do you really misunderstand the nature of an official language?

Do you think that the government of Austria forces anyone to speak German?

Having a national language simply simplifies government documents, clarifies citizenship requirements, and simplifies public school programs -- which can be bilingual, but can have more clearly-defined goals.

National languages apply to official documents, like real estate titles, contracts, and ballots. People speak whatever they want, even if the law defines the official language as German, French, English, or Chinese. Yes, even the "communist" Chinese speak their own dialects, many of them unintelligible to others, but official documents are in Mandarin.

 

[Zrex]

What the Government can achieve is at the very least a minimum proficiency in English that would do away with the need for official forms to be in 20 languages like they are in the UK.

That will save money.

If we all speak English it might save a few dollars. Anyone can understand that. Even lisping Scottish Dutch guys.

SO this all boils down to saving a few dollars? How much money do you think it will save?

 

[real_name]

SO this all boils down to saving a few dollars?

No, others and myself have made many points as to why this would be a good idea. They are listed throughout this thread.
I mentioned money as I was aware the 'antis' in this thread weren't taking the bait, so I mentioned a benefit that anyone could appreciate.

 

[ArmedBear]

SO this all boils down to saving a few dollars? How much money do you think it will save?

Yeah, lots of people have this attitude about their OWN budgets until they find themselves under a mountain of debt.

Curiously, they don't ever seem to connect government spending with their own.

 

[Zrex]

Having a national language simply simplifies government documents, clarifies citizenship requirements, and simplifies public school programs -- which can be bilingual, but can have more clearly-defined goals.

Well, I keep getting different answers. The more I probe the stranger it gets. One person claims it is to save us money. One person claimed it was so the country didn't destroy itsself. You initially said it was bring people together. Now you say its to simplify government documents? Clarifies citizenship requirements? There is already a requirement to be able to speak, read and write english to naturalize. How will this change that?

National languages apply to official documents, like real estate titles, contracts, and ballots.

How many national real estate titles have you seen? The ballots are usually a county thing. Contracts are contracts regardless of the language they are written in. How are any of these things Federal?

The Federal Government can't force a state to remove spanish from its forms if the state wants them there. If the state mandates you have apartment lease agreements in 93 different languages, then guess what? That lease agreement will be in 93 languages regardless of what is the "Official" national language.


Am I missing something else?

 

[Zrex]

Yeah, lots of people have this attitude about their OWN budgets until they find themselves under a mountain of debt.

Kind of like the US? I can think of a few hundred other pork barrel projects that would dwarf any savings by having a national language. The saving money is just an excuse.

 

[Phetro]

I'm sorry Mr Fliegendekindersheisse...

Zrex may be wrong, but you have to admit, he's clever!

 

[real_name]

Zrex, none of us here are Legislators or even specialize in the subject being discussed. We are simply normal folk discussing things on a forum, like how people used to lean over the fence and chat in the old days.
We don't claim to have a solution, just opinions.
We don't claim to know it all, just our opinions.
As such, you are taking this far too seriously by displaying agitation.
It's just the internet, it's all hypothetical until something happens in the real world.

 

[Gordon Fink]

Since at least 50% of the posters I’ve seen agree with him … are 50% of the posters here racist xenophobes? If so, are these things truly “bad?” If so, why?

If 50 percent favor higher taxes, are they bad? If 50 percent support firearms prohibitions, are they bad? If 50 percent think rape and murder are just dandy, are they bad? You tell me.

Bigotry, in my opinion, is both foolish and wrong.

That aside, has anyone provided an answer for the treaty considerations, especially regarding the recognition of Spanish in the southwestern states?

~G. Fink

 

[Zrex]

As such, you are taking this far too seriously by displaying agitation.

I don't mean to display agitation, so much as mild confusion combined with a little rib jabbing and a little tongue in cheek.

I had these exact conversations with my brother the other day, and what it boiled down to with him (after he ran through most of the excuses I have seen here) is that he was tired of hearing people speak spanish. Nothing else, he just wants them to conform to his idea of what people in this country should be like. He wanted to force his will on others who were doing him no real harm. Maybe he got some bad food at the Oso Burrito or something. Im not sure.

Overall the people here try to stay on the rational side of things instead of the emotional side, and I just wanted to find out what the real reason people want a national language. Some of the excuses are actually amusing in an alarmist sort of way. Like the NRA fund raising letters I get all the time talking about how we will all be shipped to concentration camps after our homes are burned to the ground if I don't send them $15 right away.

But, I will try to use more emoticons to lighten the mood.

 

[Harve Curry]

Like I've mentioned on this THR in past threads and I'll repeat here again, my Grandmother's parents encouraged and made it difficult for her and her brother to speak english. They were Italian in Brooklyn circa 1910. Her Dad moved them to a German nieghborhood. Schools would seat a good student next to one that needed help in english, nowadays that could be considered racisism, but it worked. Grandma had no hard feelings about it and believed to her dying day at 94 years old that that was a wise thing to do.
The 20th century saw America grow strong and the last 1/4 of it saw America start to decline.
Why is it so hard for some folks to see what works and what does not?:banghead:

 

[Zrex]

Why is it so hard for some folks to see what works and what does not?

I see the moral of your story differently, I suppose. Instead of "English = happy times in the good 'ol USA" I see the moral being "good parenting and a desire to assimilate = happy times in the good 'ol USA".

How can you have government mandated good parenting? Removing spanish (and we don't even know if making english official will actually cause spanish to be removed, do we?) from various gov't forms does nothing to assimilate people. Besides, as I stated before, one of the requirements to naturalize is to be able to speak, read and write english. Which, since this is the case, the only citizens you will have who can not speak read or write enlish will be ones who were born here. How long before the ADA gets ahold of the language barrier and costs us an arm an a leg because not knowing the official language will be a disability?

Sorry for being so random.

 

[real_name]

How can you have government mandated good parenting?

Now that's just Utopian.

Imagine a world where parents were legally obliged to actually parent their children, rather than just 'be around'.

 

[Harve Curry]

Zrex ,
It's not about "How can you have government mandated good parenting?"
It is about shoving foriegn langauges down our throats by goverment mandates to provide for everything in foriegn langauges.
Have you noticed the dollar is in english ( with a few poetic verses of latin thrown in for the tin foil crowd) That is what immigrants should be concerned about, counting dollars in english, conversing about making a living with the currency of the country they are in. If their in Mexico then they can talk spanish about pesos and how many it takes to equal a dollar. Canada can talk about their cuurency in French and in English, look how messed up they are. Do you want the same thing here? This immigration rights crapola is pushed by the same bleeding heart liberals that have blinders on when it comes to other civil rights like the one we call the 2nd Amendment. It's like standing inline with them.

Oh and any county clerks office the records and deeds are all in english.

 

[NCP24]

Why is it outsiders feel the urge to change the status quo? Now I don’t necessarily feel we need a mandated official language but I do feel they should demonstrate a little common courtesy / respect toward the existing community.

 

[CAnnoneer]

Quote:
Every day there is some Cheech cutting me off with his truck, jaywalking, etc., because his “manana” [sic] culture okays such lack of discipline or respect for simple rules.

“Racism”? Xenophobia? This example should do.

~G. Fink

Thank you, Mr Fink, for providing us with an excellent example of leftist/multiculturalist argument tools. Instead of addressing my argument directly, which is a concern about cultural incompatibility and inferiority, you chose to focus on me and call me racist and xenophobe. I could not have asked for a better illustration.

For your information, I have many colleagues that are latino by race, but are more punctual that many other people. Why is that? Because they have assimulated in the WASP work ethic and organized, disciplined lifestyle. So, as you see, it has nothing to do with race, but which culture, which, incidentally was my whole point.

Now about xenophobia. It means hate of the foreign. I most certainly despise latino culture and freely admit it. But, I like certain oriental cultures, as well as european ones. So, that's pretty much the end of that as well.

And yes, Phetro, the truth and nothing but the truth can save us individually and as a nation. The rest is propaganda and brainwashing.

 

[Gordon Fink]

Now about xenophobia. It means hate of the foreign. I most certainly despise latino culture and freely admit it.…

Thank you, amigo, for making your position clear.

~G. Fink

 

[shootinstudent]

Why is that? Because they have assimulated in the WASP work ethic and organized, disciplined lifestyle. So, as you see, it has nothing to do with race, but which culture, which, incidentally was my whole point.

Social darwinism isn't dead, even though it's been laughed out of most academic centers ever since people decided that fascism was a bad thing. I guess people who study all day just don't know anything.

Now about xenophobia. It means hate of the foreign. I most certainly despise latino culture and freely admit it. But, I like certain oriental cultures, as well as european ones. So, that's pretty much the end of that as well.

Deciding what is and is not latino culture based on some brown looking people who cut you off on the freeway is as wrongheaded as the French making judgments about American culture based on some fat-roll sporting, tan shorts wearing, nose-picking tourists.

 

[crazed_ss]

I went to see my girl in Tijuana tonight. If it makes you guys feel better, we went to Mcdonalds and I ordered in English.. I tried to order in Spanish first, but the guy at the counter saw me struggling and said "I speak English"

I believe the National Language of Mexico is Spanish, but in places where it makes sense to speak English or post signs in English, you get English. Tourists who go to Tijuana dont feel like pulling out a stupid dictionary and the vendors there no they can probably sell stuff easier if they can communicate in their customer's language.

The same thing occurs here in San Diego. In places where it makes sense for Spanish to be used, it is used.

 

[Harve Curry]

That's right, where businesses want to make dollars they can post signs in any langauge they want to.
It's the gov. required bilingual that we're talking about. Paper work, signs, school teachers. Some kids actually have disrespect for english
How can they get anywhere in life, in the United States with that handicap mindset?