Schwarzenegger Mulls Clemency for Williams

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Ultimately, the death penalty is a moral statement, a way for government to make it abundantly, absolutely clear certain crimes will never be tolerated.

Small wonder Texas executes so many, the People's Republic of California so few.
 
I would tend..

to agree with the comment about the victim's family getting to decide the fate of the scum...except what do you do in a case of multiple murder when one victim's family says 'Fry him.' and the other's says, 'Poor misguided soul has rehabilitated himself and is writing children's books."?

migoi
 
I am confused. How can he be reformed over something he maintains innocence about? If he did it and was reformed he'd admit guilt. Strange contradiction there.

I am also confused about the death penalty. I am very pro-death for the evil among us but it's a proven fact that the justice system can't keep innocent people from being convicted. I sure don't want to be killed over fabricated evidence and false testimony.
 
I have to concur that the sanitation of the death penalty and the special consideration of those convicted of such heinous crimes needs to stop. you murder in cold blood? you die. rope is cheap, the chair/injection gurney is not. sure he made have made some positive benefits with his efforts behind bars, but his true penance will be when he is killed and meets the same end as those who's lives he took so carefree.
 
scubie02 said:
Certainly what he did was heinous, if he killed those people. At the same time, I was under the impression that unlike many prisoners he appears to have reformed in prison and has spoken out and worked to try to redress some of what he did. Is it genuine, or just for show?
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Irrelevant. Like KIM said, this is about JUSTICE, not reform or rehabilitation; nor is it about deterrence of crime.
Perhaps he does deserve to die and his prison conversion is a sham.
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Even if his conversion is real, he still DESERVES to die because that was the pronounced punishment for his crime. He was sentenced to death. He was not sentenced to death OR conversion, reform, and rehabilitation. He chose to take away the lives of others, and as a consequence of his actions California Justice has demanded that he should no longer have the right to his own life.
But one of the central tenants of christianity is redemption and forgiveness.
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I hope he has found forgiveness and redemption. These do not preclude him from being executed. Forgiveness and redemption, in the Christian sense, mean that his sins will not be counted against him by God and that he will not have to suffer eternal torment in hell. Finding God's forgiveness rarely excuses one from the earthly consequences of one's actions. On the contrary, an honest conscience before God often compells the truly repentant to make restitution AND accept all legal consequences.


I believe that even in the case of the "crime of the century" either leopold or loeb reformed in prison and upon his eventual release became a physician and supposedly did alot of good, despite their original heinous crime.
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I am unfamiliar with the "crime of the century" committed by these men, but if they were convicted of murder (as Tookie was) and sentenced to death (as Tookie was), then neither of them ever should have been released.

It seems that our justice system and the national character has changed in this country. Once upon a time people were more willing it seems to have a "he did his time, and deserves a second chance" point of view.
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For murder? He wasn't sentenced to do time, he was sentenced to be executed.

I am certainly not excusing or minimizing his previous crimes. But my religion teaches me that I will be judged as I judge others.
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I am not judging Tookie. He was judged by his peers, according to the law. Judging him, in the Biblical/Christian sense, would be to say that he deserves to go to hell. Acknowledging his murderous behavior as wrong is not the same as judging him.
If I can not show mercy, none will be showed me, and I will be judged as harshly for my life.
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You are absolutely right: you should show mercy and you should forgive. If Tookie had murdered your child you should still forgive him. This would not interfere with Justice being carried out by the State of California. You could forgive him and even feel sorry for him that Justice must run its course. You could forgive him, even to the point of wishing wholeheartedly that no harm would come his way as a consequence of his actions, yet remain a champion of Justice and understand that it is not for your vengeance that he dies, but for Justice: The cost of taking a life is paying with his own.

And I do not feel that it is incongruous to say that it is of course right to have the right to defend yourself or your loved ones with deadly force at the time of an attempted crime, but that in the event of a long prison stay, someone could find the error of their ways.
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If the sentence imposed by the court is one of rehabilitation or confinement, then hopefully by the time the convict is out he will have found the error of his ways. I, too, hope that everyone would find the error of their ways and repent, so that when they die, they will go before the Lord with a clear conscience. Death is not the worst thing that we can experience.
Putting someone to death 26 years later...there is just somewhat of a sinister feel there, rational or not.
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The feel I have is anger that it's been 26 years. Because of the high rate of divorce should we abolish marriage?

I remember once discussing the death penalty with him ouside of class, and his saying that if it were your loved one, it would be more than understandable that you might want retribution, but that he couldn't help feeling that it wasn't really man at his best to kill someone in such a way.
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Man not at his best would be you or me vengefully murdering our loved-one's murderer. A healthy, functioning society that stands by its (JUST) laws and punishes violent criminals IS man at his best.

Bottom line is this: the debt he owes has NOTHING to do with his own rehabilitation or reform. The debt he owes is his life for the lives he stole. I am not his judge, another was; and the court he presided over found this man to be guilty and sentenced him to death. This is why he should die. This should only be overturned if new facts or new interpretation of facts can be presented to demonstrate that the original verdict was unjust. Any subsequent reform should have no bearing on the original verdict.
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jashobeam said:
You are absolutely right: you should show mercy and you should forgive. If Tookie had murdered your child you should still forgive him.
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He never asked to be forgiven. You can want to forgive, you can hope he sees the wrong he committed, but forgiveness given without being asked is false forgiveness. Since we are using Christianity here, look at the example set by God. Forgiveness and mercy are there, just ask. However, if you do not ask, and tell God you never did anything wrong, well, we know what happens.
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Several issues

1. The criminal in question denies responsibility for the murders, but has shown regret/remorse/etc for his role in the gangs. He has spent years working on anti-gang efforts. -- At least that is my understanding. That is why the state would have an interest in not executing him. The state has NO INTEREST in retribution UNLESS it serves a deterrent function. If the state can achieve greater social ends through a life sentence then it has that perogative, or even that social duty.

2. The death penalty as currently administered is highly ineffective because it takes too long to administer, and isn't visible. That means it loses its deterrent function. It also loses is deterrent function because it isn't administered evenly. Our justice system is horribly tainted by the fact that financially well off criminals pay lower penalties. The unfortunate effect of this is a kind of de facto racist administration of justice, though I believe that $$$$ is the main reasoning. Poor people can't afford good counsel, and lack any kind of social/public support that sways the courts. Yet ANOTHER executed person was found to have likely been wrongfully convicted just last week based upon witness coercion. (I haven't followed to see if there has been an update on this story)

3. State sanctioned punishment COULD possibly serve the following functions:

Deterrence
Reformation
Retribution
Restitution (least likely -- you have to make a lot of license plates)
Public Protection (most important)

Deterrence works when punishment is administered evenly, quickly and visibly. What does our system do?

Reformation works only for some criminals, in settings that would seem too structured or "coddling" to many, particularly fans on the retributional model. There are prisons that have very low recidivism rates, unfortunately the mechanisms that make them work well aren't well understood, or respected.

Retribution is mostly for public opinion, or for the families of victims. In a way this is the least important, and most questionable role of prisons --Not because retribution doesn't make sense, but because it can backfire against other goals. If retributional justice (such as the death penalty) isn't applied fairly or evenly, it is likely to undermine confidence in the system, hurting the social role of deterrence AND public protection.

Ultimately the goal of the system is supposed to be public protection. I don't know of any study that shows that our current death penalty has any impact on this.

Personally I am in favor of executions, but I would probably want to expand it for any second-time violent offender, and anyone who commits mass fraud leading to widespread damage to many. Basically I would want more white-collar criminals put to death for embezzling pension funds. HOWEVER, I would REQUIRE that the citizens of every state that has the death penalty pay for DNA tests that might exonerate any death row inmate first.
 
jashobeam said:
You are absolutely right: you should show mercy and you should forgive. If Tookie had murdered your child you should still forgive him. This would not interfere with Justice being carried out by the State of California. You could forgive him and even feel sorry for him that Justice must run its course. You could forgive him, even to the point of wishing wholeheartedly that no harm would come his way as a consequence of his actions, yet remain a champion of Justice and understand that it is not for your vengeance that he dies, but for Justice: The cost of taking a life is paying with his own.
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hmm, so by this reasoning...if you believe in God and heaven and hell etc, then God should "forgive" you for your sins when you die if you've repented, but still send you to hell, because that would be "justice", since after all you DID commit those sins still. Interesting...

I realize that I am approaching the subject tainted by my religiois beliefs, but its hard not to do so in regards to something as serious as state sponsored executions. But even without my religious beliefs, just based on principle, I still think there is something sinister in strapping someone down and sticking a needle in their arm. Such things should not be "clinical" so that people don't have to "get their hands dirty". This smacks of the people who are totally opposed to hunting, but eat meat. Apparently the meat THEY eat comes from the magic meat tree their supermarkey has out back. But since they don't see it or take part in the pricess themselves, they can absolve themselves of any responsibility in animals being killed and send in their contributions to the Humane Society or Peta or whatever with a clear, even self sanctimonious conscience. Personally, I think if you're going to sentence somebody to death, then somebody on the jury or the judge or somebody directly involved has to walk up and pull the trigger. If you had to do it yourself, you might take the decision that much more seriously.
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CAnnonneer

Nah, I don't want to go into it. But if you do the research you find that two different forensic experts can get completely different results, among other things.

CSI sucks, though. I was watching flipping through the other day and saw them say that some guy must have driven through a field in the last couple days, because there was grass under his car. (Something to that effect)
But I drove through fields 3 weeks ago and there is still grass under my car.
 
DNA evidence

I don't have a problem with the idea that DNA evidence is not reliable. I am sure there are circumstances where it is more reliable than others. That being said, coerced eyewitnesses aren't reliable either. If the USA is going to take the very morally problematic stance in support of the death penalty, it should take every step necessary to ensure that the right people are being executed. -- It should not take years, but it should require more certainty. We know, based on many studies, that not everyone receives the most fair treatment by our legal system. If people are to buy into a system of trial and punishment, it shouldn't favor the few wealthy people who can afford multi-million dollar attorneys.

As I said before, I would expand the list of capital offenses eligible for the death penalty to cover a whole array of high-impact, greed-driven white collar fraud and embezzlement crimes. -- Unfortunately, I am fairly certain that those accused individuals would have no problems finding good representation to get them off with a wrist slap.
 
cloudkiller said:
As I said before, I would expand the list of capital offenses eligible for the death penalty to cover a whole array of high-impact, greed-driven white collar fraud and embezzlement crimes. -- Unfortunately, I am fairly certain that those accused individuals would have no problems finding good representation to get them off with a wrist slap.
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I agree. To me, the guy who shoots his wife and her lover in a fit of passion is less reprehensible than some CEO who knowingly ruins a whole bunch of people's lives, steals their retirement after 40 years service, etc, which showed planning and forethought and disregard for the ruination of fellow humans. That person who acted in passion is probably not a threat to society as a whole. The guy who screwed over his workers is likely to go do it all over again at his next company, and was a threat to many people's lives.
 
AnthonyRSS said:
Nah, I don't want to go into it. But if you do the research you find that two different forensic experts can get completely different results, among other things.
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That's not a problem with the DNA method, but its implementation. Individual technicians can always screw up, but the science behind it is sound. We live in a world of statistics, so a 1 in 13 trillion for a false positive is a very small chance indeed. Also, if there is a question with the technician, retesting is always an option so long as the original sample has not degraded. If it has, the results will indicate that.
 
Capital punishment is about healing the wound this man inflicted on the body politic. It is about restoring moral balance. It is about honor.

Message to the Christians: No one offered Jesus clemency. Christ went the whole nine yards. So should Tookie. His death will be redemptive, not his life.
 
Forgiveness has become one of biggest rackets of the modern age. It's like running up credit cards, then stiffing your creditors. Bunk.

We are drowning in "clemency." Everybody cops out. Everybody gets away with everything. And we wonder why America is falling apart. How about some responsibility? How about some accountability?

The whole Tookie Williams blood circus is a beautiful example of exactly what's wrong with society today.
 
Kim, +1

He never asked to be forgiven. You can want to forgive, you can hope he sees the wrong he committed, but forgiveness given without being asked is false forgiveness. Since we are using Christianity here, look at the example set by God. Forgiveness and mercy are there, just ask. However, if you do not ask, and tell God you never did anything wrong, well, we know what happens.
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Forgiving others without their asking is not false forgiveness. We do not forgive others to ease their consciences, but to keep ours undefiled. Refusal to forgive leads to bitterness, resentment, and hatred. If we refuse to forgive others, we demonstrate that we are proud, lacking in humility, and consider our offenses to others and to God less severe in nature than the ones that are committed against us. At any rate, God says that unless we forgive, He will not forgive us:

"And when you stand praying, if you hold anything against anyone, forgive him, so that your Father in heaven may forgive you your sins." --Mark 11:25
This verse does not mention anything about anyone apologizing to us or asking our forgiveness; we are simply to forgive ANYONE whom we hold ANYTHING against.

Forgiveness is not always easy to give. I do not wish to make light of it, but to demonstrate that the mercy and forgiveness that we are to offer others do not supercede justice, I offer a hypothetical example. In this example, the guilty party DOES ask for forgiveness which, though granted, would not negate the victim's duty to report the crime and testify against the guilty.

Suppose a man killed a member of my family and instantly realized and regretted his actions and felt an overwhelming conviction of guilt and sorrow and asked me to forgive him. Let's say that I somehow amazingly feel compassion for him and truly forgive him from my heart. Then, I present the Gospel to him, which he believes and then gives his life to Jesus. What happens next? Next, he either turns himself in or I call 911. He committed a crime that he must answer for here and now on earth. It's great that his life, if he keeps it, will change toward good works instead of evil. But most importantly, his soul, if he is executed, will be kept safe by God. If the apostles, who were innocent, faced death willingly, how much more so a guilty man who has accepted the penalty for his actions?

BTW, if a man steals my TV or commits some other similar crime against me as a person, I would not necessarily feel bound to report him to the authorities.

I apologize if I have gotten slightly off topic here. I felt it important to differentiate between forgiveness, mercy, and the call to obey the law so that justice may be served.
 
longeyes said:
Message to the Christians: No one offered Jesus clemency. Christ went the whole nine yards. So should Tookie. His death will be redemptive, not his life.
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long, Christ could not be offered clemency, because He was giving his life up. Nobody took it. I recall Christ mentioning something along the lines of all he needed to do was call out, and legions of angels would come to his aid.

jasho, good verse. I looked it up, and that is in context. Checkmate to you, and I agree totally with regards to forgive them, then let the legal system have them. I see no qualms here either, by forgiving them you don't have a need to go vigilante on them, and their crimes are dealt with.

scubie, killing a spouse for adultery should be legal, and acceptable.
 
Wrong chicken???? governor.

RICHMOND, Virginia (AP) -- Virginia's governor on Tuesday spared the life of a convicted killer who would have been the 1,000th person executed in the United States since the Supreme Court allowed capital punishment to resume in 1976.

Robin Lovitt's death sentence was commuted to life in prison without parole a little more than 24 hours before he was to be executed by injection Wednesday night for stabbing a man to death with a pair of scissors during a 1998 pool-hall robbery.

In granting clemency, Gov. Mark R. Warner noted that evidence had been improperly destroyed after Lovitt's trial. (Watch what fueled clemency decision -- 1:06)

"The commonwealth must ensure that every time this ultimate sanction is carried out, it is done fairly," Warner said in a statement.

Warner, a Democrat, had never before granted clemency to a death row inmate during his four years in office. During that time, 11 men have been executed.

The 1,000th execution is now scheduled for Friday in North Carolina, where Kenneth Lee Boyd is slated to die for killing his estranged wife and her father.

The nation's 999th execution since capital punishment resumed a generation ago took place Tuesday morning, when Ohio put to death John Hicks, who strangled his mother-in-law and suffocated his 5-year-old stepdaughter to cover up the crime.

Lovitt's lawyers, who include former independent counsel Kenneth Starr, and anti-death penalty advocates had argued that his life should be spared because a court clerk illegally destroyed the bloody scissors and other evidence, preventing DNA testing that they said could exonerate him.

Lovitt was convicted in 1999 of murdering Clayton Dicks at an Arlington pool hall. Prosecutors said Dicks caught Lovitt prying open a cash register with the scissors, which police found in the woods between the pool hall and the home of Lovitt's cousin.

Lovitt admitted grabbing the cash box but insisted someone else killed Dicks. Initial DNA tests on the scissors were inconclusive.

Warner said he was "acutely aware of the tragic loss experienced by the Dicks family."

"However, evidence in Mr. Lovitt's trial was destroyed by a court employee before that process could be completed," he said. "The actions of an agent of the commonwealth, in a manner contrary to the express direction of the law, comes at the expense of a defendant facing society's most severe and final sanction."

http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/11/29/landmark.execution.ap/index.html
 
I haven't read the entire thread because I'm too lazy, but this POS has been living off of the Govt. tit for 24 years in prison, (who knows how long he was on welfare prior to going to prison) at about $55,000.00 per year just to keep his useless ass alive and people are upset ?????
I don't care if he is the reincarnation of Ghandi, he is a CONVICTED MURDERING LOWLIFE !!! and should have his sentence carried out as proscribed by the court.
Tell you what, start putting them down in droves ( death row inmates) like we do in Texas and you'll soon have a budget surplus.
That place gives me a headache, pass the Aspirin
 
Please restrict your religious comments to those necessary to convey your point.

Using an oblique connection to attempt to spread your gospel is dishonest and beneath your creed; please stay on-topic.

John
 
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