training?

Pax, I re-read your first post.

Here's something to consider about "level of training required for you state's CCW."

Some states (like Texas) specify you must be able to hit X number of shots on a specific type of target in a specific amount of time.

In Arkansas, "qualification" is left up to the judgement of the CCW instructor.

I know through the testimony of people who've either come to my class or come to my CCW renewal program, that there are a lot of CCW instructors in Arkansas who have their "students" shoot as little as five total shots to "qualify."

That's right....shoot five shots at a target, and voila! You done passed the shootin' part of your CCW class.

Lots of folks who come to my CCW renewal program are shocked, totally shocked, when I tell them they will need at least 75 rounds of ammo.

They are shocked, shocked I tell you, when they find out they will shoot with both hands, use the sights, use one hand, point shoot without the sights, shoot from 7 yards, shoot from less than one yard, and even try taking cover before firing a shot in the drills I have them do.

Again, in Arkansas, my little old course really is (sadly enough) "advanced training" for a disturbing number of my students.

And that's using your own definition of "advanced" training.

hillbilly

Friendly bump. I'm interested in seeing more answers to Pax's original question.

At the risk of sounding completely ignorant...

I shoot regularly at two ranges and infrequently at another two. I've seen several classes, and they all look like this:

Half-a-dozen people in camouflage pants, black boots, black t-shirts and Blackhawk web gear blazing away with their Kimber Customs while a pudgy man in a boonie hat and sunglasses screams, "Think tactical!" at them.

The man in the boonie hat could be a Navy Seal, a Ranger or the world's most highly-paid assassin. Even so, I just can't take this set-up seriously. I won't take any training classes until I hear of a trainer with references from non-mall-ninjas.

I'm pretty much a lifelong shooter, from age 6 for my first "training" with my BB gun to age 16 when I got my first handgun to age 52, now. I've taken the CCW course, of course, three times now, two of 'em renewals. I took a course that certified me to teach the NRA pistol and rifle courses. I dropped that certification after several years because I wasn't using it. But, that's my only formal training. I have a brain and I can figure out things. I shoot a lot, I've done some IDPA and consider that about as good training for actual shooting as any, really.

There are all sorts of "schools". For me, practice makes perfect. There's only so much you can be taught, just like motorcycle road racing which I've been doing for 30 years now. Nothing like seat time to learn to go fast. If you are new, you need instruction, especially in gun safety! Take the NRA course first, worry about self defense later. The NRA course teaches safety and marksmanship. CCW courses aren't set up to do that. You're supposed to already know how to handle your gun by that time.

IDPA is about as close to an actual gunfight scenario as I can get on a budget without going out and shooting somebody. It's affordable and it's fun. I ain't spending 500 bucks at "Thunder Ranch" or somewhere just to say I did. It won't make me a better shooter. It might teach me some different things I can live without, but I'm a civilian. I don't need to know how to "clear a room". I'm going to be locked in my bedroom behind the mattress with my .38 and cell phone calling 911 if it's a home thing. If I'm on the street, the scenarios we shoot in IDPA are more likely to keep me in practice.

These self professed "experts" that teach these schools all have different ideas. There was one in Houston taught by some Israeli dude that taught to draw condition three and rack the slide! SCREW THAT! That's why I carry a DAO, so all I have to do is pull the trigger.

Nope, I don't need no stinkin' school, thanks. JMHO though. If you think it makes you better with your firearm, go for it. I say burning a hundred rounds or three a week is enough to keep your edge. A hundred rounds or three a day would work better. Shooting is what it takes, practice. At some point you pretty much don't need to be educated, you need to educate your motor skills. If you are brand new to shooting, the NRA pistol course is NUMBER ONE step! Learn your safety and marksmanship techniques there, then practice, practice, practice and get accomplished at safe gun handling, then take the CCW course for your permit. Again, JMHO.

Short answer: Money. I simply can't afford good training right now.

Longer answer: I do what I can to "train" myself -- I do lots of dryfire practice, drawing, etc. on a B27 that I have up on a concrete basement wall. I also try to get to the range at least once a week (but during winter in Utah, that's really not always an option).

My next step is to get into IDPA. I've been to a single, solitary match, and while it's not "training," I do feel that it's definitely much better practice than shooting at a single paper target. Definitely much that can be learned there.

It's one of my biggest wishes to be able to go to Gunsite at some point in the not-too-distant future, but as I said, it's just not realistic right now. College sucks up way too much money for that.

Wes

Wes, come by my store when you get the chance. There may be some training opportunities, for cheaper, and from very qualified, experienced, instructors available soon.

Well, I'd say I meet your criteria, Pax.

I got my CHL in April of 2004 while still in school. I graduated in May 2004 and didn't find a full-time job until April of this year. Since, I've bought two pistols, a CZ75 I picked up used and an SP101 I bought new for carry and put on my credit card. That said, I pretty much live paycheck to paycheck. Any time I get a little cash ahead something pops up that needs to be done. My car's alternator goes out, hospital bill, whatever. So I really can't afford to shell out a couple hundred bucks for training and whatever travel is required on top of that.

Also, I have absolutely no idea what type of class would be best for me. The 8 hour course that was required for my license was basically a reinforcement of the info I'd picked up on the forums I'd visited to that point. Do I really need to go to a basic safety course if I can handle a gun without being a danger to myself or others? Am I overestimating my abilities in this area as one poster pointed out that people are likely to do? Are there classes where the instructor can and will take the time to help you with proper stance, grip, sight picture, etc.? And is there a class like that in my area where I won't have to take a week off work just to get in 2 days of training? How can I know that a local place will actually help and not just load me up on BS? I mean, even some of the big instructors have their detractors.

In short, while I'd love to have someone that I can trust teach me to be more competent overall, I don't know how to go about finding that person and relaying my needs to him/her.

Sorry if that got confusing or too wordy.

Barrett

I used to fit in your categories ... right now I don't, because I don't have a CCW for the state I'm in and I do plan to get additional training, but I'm not sure if it's in the "near" future or not ...



Anyways, I didn't get additional training primarily because of the cost. I had a $400 gun, a $60 permit, a $10 holster, and a $3 belt. I knew enough about training (from the infantry) to know that I could at least work on some myself, without taking a class. I practiced draws. I did dry fire drills. I did point-shooting drills. When I could afford the extra ammo to shoot without dipping into my carry ammo I'd live-fire double-taps, point-shooting, shoot-and-move, etc. I wargamed scenarios constantly.

Now, none of this probably comes close to a "Defensive Handgun 1" course, and definintely not the "Def. Handgun 3" or whatever. But it was better than nothing. It was what I could afford. I always intended to get additional training, but it was also always "some day" down the road, when I could afford it.

mattjoe said:

All of your four qualifiers apply to me.

What are my thoughts and reasoning for not attendng a gun school?

Because I have absolutely no need or desire to pay someone to tell me how to carry a concealed firearm, draw it, and shoot it, when I already know how, and probably can, faster and more accurately than the instructor can.

Click to expand...

So when is the "Mattjoe Shooting Academy" set to open?

Well, there've been several well stated answers now to the question; Pax, would you like to comment on them? I take the general gist of the clearest two streams of thought represented here to be:

(1) not enough time/money/whatever--but this is not an answer to your question, so can be ignored

(2) a questioning of the value of training, in two parts:
(a) its value in making you a better shooter, compared to an equivalent amount of time, trouble & money spent on shooting and especially on competing in action-shooting sports; and
(b) the unstandardized, unverified, uncertain--and I would say, sometimes rather shrouded in 'tactical mystery'--NON-shooting parts of the training. People (myself included) are unsure that they are relevant to our lives, whatever they are, quite apart from being unsure of the quality of content.

Would the thread starter or someone else with experience in these areas like to respond to these questions about, and sometimes challenges to, the value of 'training'?

Okay; glad to hear you're still on it, and I'll look foward to step 2.

Frontsight's "Five Levels of COmpetence"

This is an excerpt from an e-mail sent to me when signing up for FrontSight's newsletter. It doesn't answer directly to the original post, but is IMHO exceptionally relevant.

Since there was no copyright/confidentiality notice on the e-mail, and anyone with an e-mail account can get this at no cost, I don't think there would be any issue with posting it. Frontsight gives a fuller lecture on the subject that explains the concept much more thoroughly, but I think I'd be overstepping were I to copy and post from the lecture handout. This excerpt should give the general idea, though...thought-provoking stuff, IMHO, for any shooter whether or not they have training on whatever level.
__________
This is a direct transcript from the live introduction
given by Ignatius Piazza, Front Sight's Founder and
Director.

Front Sight's Purpose and the Five Levels of Competence.

(stuff deleted)

With that said, what is our purpose? Well it is a large
one. And the easiest way to explain this is to review
something that we call the Five Levels of Competence.

The lowest level of competence is what we refer to as
the II. That stands for Intentionally Incompetent. These
are the people that know they need training but they lack
the courage and the motivation to get it. They actually
avoid training because in exposing themselves to training,
they expose their inadequacies to their peers and they
fear that greater than death itself. Fortunately we don't
see the II at Front Sight very often. I can count on one
hand the number of times we have in the last 5 years. In
each case they were sent to us by their department or by
someone who was concerned that this person needed training
and they just weren't getting it.

The II does not want to be here. They waste our time, they
waste your time. I tell you about them simply because they
are out there and you should avoid them like the plague.
Because if you count on the II when the chips are down,
they will take you right to the grave with them.

Then for no fault of their own there is the UI. This stands
for Unconsciously Incompetent. These are the people that
do not know that they do not know. And unfortunately it
makes up about 95% of the gun owning population. Now I
realize that's a shockingly high figure for many of you to
comprehend. When we provide our one day courses, we tell
our students that a one day course will not bring them to
a full understanding of the Five Levels of Competence. The
reason it does not is because in a one day course we do
not put those students into a live fire tactical training
simulator. A simulator that's as close to a real gun fight
as we can make it without anybody getting physically hurt.
And it's in those simulators that students begin to
understand that in a real gun fight, you're only going to
be about half as good as you are in the best day on the
training range simply from the stress of someone trying
to take your life. Unfortunately, 95% of the gun owning
population does not know this.

Let me give you some examples of the UI:

The police officer who only fires his weapon for
mandatory range qualification two or three times a year is
Unconsciously Incompetent.

Military personnel, especially the Reserve Units and
National Guard who have not trained with their weapons or
live ammunition for 6 months or a year and then are
quickly called up and sent off to some foreign part of the
world to fight a police action, they too are Unconsciously
Incompetent.

Then there is the hunter who buys the brand new high
powered rifle, books the African safari and when the guide
places him within 75 yards of a trophy animal, he misses
the shot, or worse wounds the animal and now you spend the
rest of the day tracking large, dangerous, wounded game.
He too, is Unconsciously Incompetent.

Then there's the gun owner, who thinks that without having
any type of training like we offer here at Front Sight,
simply having a pistol and a box of ammunition is all he
needs for protection should he hear breaking glass in the
middle of the night. He too, is Unconsciously Incompetent.

This even extends to all those people out there who have a
Concealed Weapon Permit. Who've only taken that mandatory
8 hours course that the county required. Six of those hours
spent talking about where and when they can legally carry
a gun, a couple hours with some very minimal training in a
very minimal skills test and now they're out there on the
street carrying a gun thinking that should someone step up
to try to take their life, they have all the tools they
need to protect it. They, too, do not know what they do
not know.

Now why is it that I know so much about this UI? Well it's
because I was the biggest UI. I was the gun shop owner's
best friend. When a new gun came out on the cover of Guns
and Ammo, I would immediately run down to my local gun shop
and buy two; complete with all the accessories they could
sell me. And I viewed these guns are collectables and art
objects, not as tools or weapons. Then one day a
relatively minor incident made me aware of my incompetence
and I immediately graduated to the next level. I was now
Consciously Incompetent. I knew I did not know and I knew
I needed training. Well not everyone is as lucky as I was.
Sometimes that sudden realization that you do not know is
quickly followed by your opponents attack. And if that
attack involved lethal force, the only reason you'll
survive is because on that day, at that time, your
opponent was a bigger UI than you were. Who wants to
bet their life on those odds? I certainly did not.

(stuff deleted)

Now, once students arrive at Front Sight our next purpose
is to validate their awareness that they need and want
training and provide them with a curriculum that will
quickly bring them up to the level of Consciously
Competent because at this level they are now better than
95% of the gun owning population but must consciously
think about everything that they do with their weapon.
Further practice and training will elevate their skills
to the next level, the highest level, and those of you in
the room here who are the ultimate achievers; Front
Sight's purpose extends to assist you in reaching your
highest level of competence. That would be Unconsciously
Competent. And at this level your weapon craft
skills, your tactics, your mindset all become reflexive.
Now please realize that even at the Unconsciously
Competent level, in a real gunfight you're still only
going to be about half as good as you are in your best
day on the training range simply from the stress of someone
trying to take your life. But half as good at the
Unconsciously Competent level is miles above that UI
that you're likely to meet on the street. And that not
only ensures you'll survive; it ensures that you'll win
and that's why we're here. To make sure that our students,
should they ever need to use a weapon to defend their
lives or the lives of their loves ones, will in fact win!

Now if any of you are sitting there wondering or worrying
that we're speaking of you when we describe this UI, don't
worry. Whatever level you are presently at, I have been
there. In fact I tell the story of my first course
(at another school) to illustrate this point.

I showed up for this course as a complete novice. It
was a handgun course. I was wearing my newly purchased
and pressed desert camouflage fatigues. I had a Miami
Vice shoulder holster on, just like the one Don Johnson
wore in the television show- because up to that point
"Sonny Crockett" was my firearms training mentor. And
I had a high capacity 9mm pistol up under my arm and I
had enough magazines on my belt to last the entire first
two days of the class without even thinking about
reloading. So I was quite a sight. Then the founder
of that school walked into the classroom. There
were about 20 students in the class and he looked
at me and he said, "You, man, stand up." And I
thought, "Wow! This is going to be a great day. Here
I am, just fifteen minutes into the class and the
founder is recognizing me." The founder looked to
one of his instructors who was seated in the back of the
classroom and then he looked at me again and said,
"Take that man outside! Get him squared away." So there
I was, standing up feeling rather foolish and exited
the classroom to spend part of the morning- justifiably
so, I might add- getting squared away.

(more stuff deleted)
______________

I have thoughts on the subject (borne of watching a guy in my CCW class hit the freakin' ceiling twice on his 7-yard test and still pass), but this isn't the thread for 'em. ;-)

ChristopherG said:

(1) not enough time/money/whatever--but this is not an answer to your question, so can be ignored

Click to expand...

If I may?

Why is expense (or, for that matter, time) not an answer? How many times have we seen posts on 'best cheap handgun', etc. from folks who simply cannot afford Glocks, Sigs, Colts, and so on? My father is a public school teacher who has put whatever he can back into savings for college for us three kids (one of whom is still in school) or retirement. He's wanted a heavier caliber handgun than the .22 he's had for as long as I can remember but couldn't afford one...until he found a hi-point.

Frankly, the four figure numbers I've seen on some of these training sessions would make certain that he'd never even consider attending, even if he were to want to attend one. It's not an answer that the expense of this training is too much for a lower class income family to afford? For some it's not a matter of "I could take this course and the training may save my life or my family's" but "I could take this course and may lose my family's home".

I'd really like to hear your reasoning on this subject.

Thanks,
Barrett

Huh. You make a good point, KadicDeshi. Looking back, I had to really read the original criteria tendentiously to make that statement; and then, even in the group of answers I considered relevant, I included the issue of relative value-for-time-and-money. So, point taken; money/time/resource expense is naturally a critical issue for anyone making the decision whether or not to pursue training.

You're right; most of the 'training' I'm aware of is priced well out of the reasonable reach of the lower middle class. Belonging approximately to that class myself, I can certainly say that I'd be more curious about some of the training out there if it cost a lot less.

PS: it's nice to hear that you respect your dad's hard work and sacrifice.

Thanks for your reply. I was a little worried that my post might be taken as mean-spirited and that wasn't what I was going for.

In regards to respecting my dad's work and sacrifice, I'm sure I haven't adequately conveyed to him just how much what he did and does means to me. I just hope that if I ever have a family I am close to as good a father as he is.

Barrett

maybe newbie

Pax,

What a wonderful thread! thanx!

I carry because my life may someday be in danger, that's it.
I am not a mall ninja, a super hero, a martial artist, a retired/ex military/LEO.
I am the average almost paycheck to paycheck, balding, 5'10" 160lbs, skinny nerd >40 yo that carries 18/7 in an area that if widely-known I carry, would be considered a paranoid gun freak.
I carry concealed while awake and shy away from any "gun talk" other than on the net.

I feel all I need to know is how to hit a 2'x2' target within 15'. If ever in danger, I'm gonna draw and fire at the general direction of the threat. I feel it's overkill to have pre-planned scenarios, targets beyond 5 yards, reload drills, multiple target drills, fake "what if" this happens crap.
To pay for a situational, tactical exercise by someone who may or may not know what the heck he is teaching that would probably never remotely happen to me is ludicris.

I learned all I needed in Drivers Ed to be safe, no defensive driving class, no racing, no contests. I actually learned more from driving drunk a couple decades ago than any "Petty Experience" could teach me.

I lurk everyday, many times a day, and occasionally post at THR, PDO and TFL and learn a lot everytime, but all it comes down to is drawing the worst-case scenario, SHTF, last ditch, just pull the dang trigger, panic, out-of-nowhere reaction to a situation I have absolutely no concept of or prior experience.

I know how/when to draw my weapon, fire it and hit a man-sized target w/in 10ft. I know to steer into a skid, don't over-compensate when running off the road, etc. These things aren't rocket science.

I am overly safe (to the point of being obnoxious to friends/family) and always aware of my suroundings, almost paranoid. I don't need to pay someone needed bucks to tell me how I should deal with a random scenario that has no chance of happening.

Shooting skill classes are like driving skill classes in that they instill a false sense of competence in a safe unrealistic environment that could lead to tragedy in the real world.

I know enough not to be confused when it counts.

Price issues:

Is $350 for two days a disqualifier to many? One has to save to get a $350 gun.

There are even less inexpensive local options in many places.

Is $350 for two days a disqualifier to many? One has to save to get a $350 gun.

Click to expand...

True. However, how many of us miss pay on two days of work and have travel expenses (for those without a local option) tacked on to the $350 pricetag for a pistol?

Barrett

Edit: Just so everyone knows, I'm not claiming to be too poor for training. If I were a little more disciplined on my saving, I could probably afford it. But I remember being on the reduced lunch program in grade school while my father was in college. I remember how my parents scrimped and saved for every penny. So I have a little sympathy for folks in similar situations.

I have total sympathy for those who can't afford things. I've been there and so has my family.

Finances are a realistic concern. I know quite a few well off fellows who buy guns galore and have NO training. They do think they are 'warriors' though.

Quite frankly, I cheat. I have a couple of shooting buddies who have taken, and continue to take extensive firearms courses and thankfully share their knowledge.

I am a student, and plan to always be a student, of defensive shooting. I read, listen, learn and practise -- certainly not as much as some here, but I try to get in my range time once a week.

Life is a series of trade-offs and conflicting priorities for one's time. I'm just thankful for the expertise I can draw from on forums such as this.