America, the experiment ,has failed?

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Checkman

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I'm feeling very gloomy right now.


So is it over? Are we a victim of our own success? No denying that free enterprise and Capitalism makes for one heck of a motivator, but it seems that the final end of this economic powerhouse is the meaningless pursuit of material wealth.

Is it possible that such a situation ensures that people don't care about anything bigger then themselves - like the concept of the United States? I that the U.S. has more in common with Rome than even we realize. It goes beyond our obsessions of material wealth and focus on physical beauty.The biggest thing is that the U.S. dosen't have a common culture (like say Iran does), but is instead a Civilization. I don't have a dictonary handy, but I believe that a Civilization is made up of such things as laws where a culture is language, food, common history etc.

The Roman Republic lost what made it culturally unique centuries before it finally became an official Empire. By the time the Empire was declared the population was a mass of different ethnic groups. The Empire was no more Roman than than the U.S. is Anglo - Saxon. I speculate that we are transforming into the new Roman Empire. As an amatuer history buff who has always focused on Rome I'm not very thrilled with this idea.

Perhaps it's impossible for participatory democracy and the accumulation of wealth and power to hand in hand? That whole thing about power corrupting and so on don't you know.

Like Rome I don't forsee anyone being a total threat to our physical security. Perhaps the Civil War, World Wars and the Cold War were what the Punic Wars and the Social Wars were for Rome. They transformed Rome into a superpower, which made the Empire powerful, but also crippled it. Seems the more power a nation has the less freedom they have to use it. Nevertheless I do believe that the Republic is on it's knees. We won't collapse - far from it. But we are turning into the 21st century version of an Empire.

I find that a very sad prospect, but we were warned of this situation over a century ago. Guess we should have listened.

So what's your take?
 
The masses don't value freedom. And all empires eventually crumble. *shrug*
 
As a senior citizen, veteran, I have been a witness to transformations that have astounded me in the past 40 years. I've worked in the political system to create changes but with little results in my opinion.

I have concern our public schools have been our worse enemy along with the media (tv) being second. We have lost standards, morals and belief in America, now we have a society that appears ashamed to be proud of this country.

I grew up working, learning from the ww2 generations they would have been outraged to see what has occurred. I do still hold out hope that it will swing back as many things cycle however I am fearful the impact as it occurs will be very difficult.
 
as a relatively recent immigrant (1991) I don't have any of the self loathing prevalent in a lot of natural born Americans. I'm very anti-illegal alien but they don't seem to have the self loathing either. Maybe we do need them but for a reason we're not yet ready to admit to.
 
"Communism killed 10 million people and all I got was this lousy t-shirt."

I don't believe what's killing us is materialism but the steady creep of totalitarianism on the part of our government since the end of WW2. Sometimes I wonder who really won that one.
 
America as a principle has not failed, those who are given charge of making sure it works have failed it.

It's never too late we can still bring it back to the correct side. Either that or we follow the advice of Jefferson and we will need to refresh freedom. You know the quote.
 
I'll agree that we certainly do live in interesting times. The halcyon day of modern America cannot go on forever. As a history buff, it is quite remarkable that there has been so little bloodshed on th continental United States for so long. I wonder how many liberals will change their tune if international violence comes to their front door?

In any case, I think that the greatest threat to the Republic is not the Jihadists (although they are indeed a threat), but the "globalists". By "globalist" I mean the many millions of Americans in influential positions that do not think that there is any differnce between the nations. One nation is as good as any other. These people are constantly destroying the very concept of what it means to be a nation. While they can wax and wane about world peace, they value Freedom very little.

My beliefs hark back to a different era.

Live Free or Die!
 
“In the middle of the road of my life I awoke in the dark wood where the true way was wholly lost”

Don't worry, there's a happy ending.

But first we have to deal with a few challenges and clarify our vision.
 
Look, I'm 33 now and I do not see America as a failed experiment at all. America is in a constant state of change, and we roll with change better than anyone else in terms of politics, economy, media. Are we in a down turn now? Probably, but I think our remarkable coackroach like ability to turn around a bad situation will see us through in the long term.

Beside, the rest of the world thinks we export our "culture" too much, the mid-east, China , Japan.
 
Is it as free as it was? No. Is it a "failed experiment"? No, not by a long shot. And if we were all that bad off, there wouldn't be so many people trying to come here--and that's far beyond Mexico's poor and uneducated, if that's what's bothering folks.

Do we have problems? Yep. Have we always had problems? Yep. Civil War. WW I, the Great Depression and then WW II. Social upheaval in the 1960s. Ralph Nader.

So far, we're surviving, and that's all any society can ever hope to do. I don't expect to ever see perfection, even when I shave.

From my own "Hell, I was there!" standpoint, we're not all that bad off.

Art
 
First the Good News: "America" is an idea that will never die. Its light is unextinguishable.

In what form it will survive and where it's found remains to be worked out. If Irish monks need to preserve it in caves, here or on another planet, so be it.
 
The Roman Republic lost what made it culturally unique centuries before it finally became an official Empire.

It ended when we/they became a country of "men, not laws". We've had a number of elected Caesars, starting with Lincoln... Following men or trusting in men, and not the founders vision, is suicide in the long run.

There are rough times ahead.

Its pretty much over except the pretending, and I say this as a well-traveled person. When I perceive a former KGB man (Putin) as less crooked and more nationalistic than most in our own Government, well, it makes the hair on the back of my neck stand up.

Can you imagine what a "President Putin" could do for this country with our resources? It's truly sad (as somebody who did duck-and-cover their whole childhood, and loathes Communism) to wish we had their leader in most respects.

Beside, the rest of the world thinks we export our "culture" too much, the mid-east, China , Japan.

When they say "culture" they mean "debt" or "military", depending on the country, not "freedom" or "liberty".

Don't worry, there's a happy ending.

From your mouth to the Creator's ear.
 
Can you imagine what a "President Putin" could do for this country with our resources? It's truly sad (as somebody who did duck-and-cover their whole childhood, and loathes Communism) to wish we had their leader in most respects.

Putin may not be corrupt in the traditional Russian sense, but he's power hungry and has dictatorial ambitions. But of course he already has a country with far greater resources than the US. But neither he nor a thousand years of earlier Russian dictators have been able to master it. Why? Because they view power as coming from them to the people, and not the other way around. He would be eaten alive in DC, and rightly so. If he wasn't stopped there, he'd need to have a bullet to the brain. We don't need dictators here.

This has always been a crazy, mixed-up muddle of a nation. And it probably always will be. I'd be more worried if eveyone was agreeing and trying to stride boldly forward with crew cuts, pocket protectors and short sleeve dress shirts.
 
I sincerely doubt that America has failed in any sense of the word. I think what's happened is not that participatory democracy has failed, but rather that not enough people are participating.

Consider this for a moment: In Iraq, something like 68-70% of voters turned out to vote on the national constitution. 70% braved very possible death and injury to have a say in a nation that will become theirs. In the US? Less than half of elegible voters actually vote any given year.

I think thats because too many people have either forgotten- or never known- what it means to have that freedom. A lot of kids my age don't appreciate what any of their rights mean. They don't realize that you can't do what you do in the US everywhere else in the world. This is a troubling situation. But it is curable.

Because the heart of the problem is some people failing to understand. But that's why the rest of us are here. We do understand what all of that means, and since we do, I think we have a responsibility to help as many other people as we can to understand.

So really, this situation is only as grim as we allow it to be. This nation is not, was not, and if we fulfill our civic duty, it will never be about the government.
 
An edited version of something I posted on another forum:

Step back and take a broad view. We are a nation at the end of its natural life.
All societies exist for a time, even flourish for awhile, but then grow old and die. Ours is, or has been, a relatively free society, and it is reaching the end of its life.
I suspect that, should one look at history, they would find that free societies typically have the shortest lifespans. The burn brightly in the light of freedom, but the end result is they quickly expend all their energies, dying at a young age when compared to others.
The complaints of many of us, the disappearing freedoms, the growing apathy of the population, ineffective government, and all the rest, are but symptoms of the aging process. They cannot be reversed, at best they can be temporarily slowed or halted for a short time.
Unfortunately, disease cannot be cured by treating the symptoms.
I often wonder if we would be better off planning for how to cope with the coming fall of this nation, rather than expending effort trying to reverse something that cannot be turned around.
 
the experiment didnt fail. the Declaration of Independence and Constitution are great. not flawless but designed to be alive. similar to linux and open source programming but not as easily changed.

I believe we have people that have strayed or corrupted to deviate from the programming the founding fathers created.

its just time to get back to the program. we need new guards ie new political party or something else done. things will get worse before they get better.

new waco like event may be coming via community in El Dorado,Texas. about the guy that recently made the FBI 10 most wanted.

be interesting to see if any new usurptions come from the Hurricane season drawing near.
 
It's not that the American experiment has failed. We just didn't follow the instructions. It started with the War of Northern Aggression. The Constitution hasn't been followed strictly since then.

FDR, LBJ, and every single politician since has continued what Lincoln started They all make their 'contribution' to the systematic dismantling of the founding principals of this nation. The Constitution has become an inconvenience to the growing tyranny of our government. It's no longer viewed as a guide by which men of good conscience can govern themselves. Instead it's treated as a tool by which 'enlightened' men try to rule everyone else.

As I watch things fall apart, my awe for the Founding Fathers increases. What we see around us today is a fine 'proof by negative example' of just how brilliant their plan was.
 
Step back and take a broad view. We are a nation at the end of its natural life.
All societies exist for a time, even flourish for awhile, but then grow old and die. Ours is, or has been, a relatively free society, and it is reaching the end of its life.
I suspect that, should one look at history, they would find that free societies typically have the shortest lifespans. The burn brightly in the light of freedom, but the end result is they quickly expend all their energies, dying at a young age when compared to others.
The complaints of many of us, the disappearing freedoms, the growing apathy of the population, ineffective government, and all the rest, are but symptoms of the aging process. They cannot be reversed, at best they can be temporarily slowed or halted for a short time.
Unfortunately, disease cannot be cured by treating the symptoms.
I often wonder if we would be better off planning for how to cope with the coming fall of this nation, rather than expending effort trying to reverse something that cannot be turned around.

Re-group, take your game somewhere else, play a new hand.
 
Memorable Quotes from Kelly's Heroes (1970)

"Why don't you knock it off with them negative waves? Why don't you dig how beautiful it is out here? Why don't you say something righteous and hopeful for a change?"
 
Re-group, take your game somewhere else, play a new hand.
That is what must be done. Build something new and better from what remains.
My apologies if it sounded doom and gloomish, that was not my intent.
The end can mean a new beginning.
 
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