America, the experiment ,has failed?

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The Lord knows I have given this subject much thought and pondering. I sincerely love this country and the ideas under which it was created. I mean, who could agree that being a free individual answering only to God for his actions could be a bad thing?
I am also a history buff and have followed our socio-political history for sometime with the help of a notorious radio talk-show host. "Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Great men are almost always bad men."
—Lord Acton, 1887
Letter to Bishop Creighton

"In a democracy the poor will have more power than the rich, because there are more of them, and the will of the majority is supreme."
—Aristotle
Politics, 350 B.C.

"In a republic this rule ought to be observed: that the majority should not have the predominant power."
—Marcus Tullius Cicero
De Re Publica, 51 B.C.

This fear we consider today is not an old fear as we can see by the quotes I have posted above by notable figures in world history. Our society is based on material wealth and adrenalin rushes, with reckless abandon regarding the consequences or the moral implications.
People of this country are so involved with their personal standing and the achievement of their personal goals they give no consideration to the political world around them, they give no consideration of the implications caused by ignoring their duties as citizens to keep a watchful eye on what their government is doing and how they are spending their money, our money.

"The Republican form of government is the highest form of government: but because of this it requires the highest type of human nature—a type nowhere at present existing."
—Herbert Spencer
Essays, 1891

And of course we have all heard this quote: "A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship. The average age of the world's greatest civilizations has been 200 years.
Great nations rise and fall. The people go from bondage to spiritual truth, to great courage, from courage to liberty, from liberty to abundance, from abundance to selfishness, from selfishness to complacency, from complacency to apathy, from apathy to dependence, from dependence back again to bondage."
- Author Unknown

We can blame no entity but ourselves for our current condition, we have the government we earned. Those that believe in the corrupt and diluted system we experience today will not give it up or want to change it. Those that believe in the originial Constitutional Republic that we had, well, it depends on how bad they want it back. There are sides to this, then there are the indifferent, whom those who believe in a Constitutional Republic must sway to their side if there is to be any hope of recovery.
Our current government has the upper hand, no doubt about it. We have let them become so powerful and they have the unlimited resources that we gave them to deny any change at all. So as I see it, unless there is a MAJOR upheaval at the poles, if there be any true Constitutional Republic candidates even available to vote for, there is no other way. Either vote the power back, forcefully take it back or submit to it.
 
Good points. I'm feeling a little better today. Ever had one of those times whne a big black cloud rolls overhead and just blots out all light. That was me yesterday.

May you live in interesting times. I was told this is an old Chinese curse. Don't know if that is right, but it sure hits the bullseye anyway.

Twenty yeas ago, when I was eighteen, I envied those folks who had lived in interesting times. Life seemed very dull to me back in 1986. I know that it wasn't, but you know how teenagers can be. Now I'm living in an "exciting and cool" time. I don't like it. It's funner to read about sweeping dramatic events in history. Not to crazy about actually living during one of the BIG events.And I do believe that we are going through one of the periodical shake-ups.

The real irony is that in a hundred or so years there will be some geeky and unfashionable teenager envying us. One of the doofs who actually likes history.He will wish that he was around in 2006 because we lived in such "exciting" times and he'll percieves us as being bigger than life. To this kid the 22nd century will be boring and the people are too orderly and small. Well at least I hope that will be the situation. ;)
 
No, it ain't over.

There are still patriots among us. Not until the last of these are shouted down, rounded up, carried off or otherwise have their voice struck from society will it be truly over. This country has always been about more than a geographical boundary. It has been, from it's conception in the minds of great men, an idea. Sometimes an idea so lofty as to be called a figment of the imagination. America will endure so long as some person, in some place, dreams of freedom from oppression and freedom to live peacefully. When someone stands up to intrusion against those ideals that made us great, the light flickers more brightly.

Our purpose as denizens of this land called America is to do what we can to blow that flicker back into a flame. write letters to editors, your elected officials, your local religious organizations if you feel the need. The "silent majority" has suffered and given up much due to our silence. On another post, I mentioned that I have sworn three vows in my life. They are to my wife, my God and my nation, Not to be confused with my government which I loathe. I swore to support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic. No one has told me I stand relieved.

A sig line I have seen here on THR: Make ready and stand fast. It's gonna be a bumpy ride.
 
America, the experiment, has failed?

I think the lifespan of the Republic peaked just after WWII and has been on the downhill slope for awhile now. Patriotism was abused where American men would stand on line and recieve a volley of fire like in our Civil War, or go "over the top" in the WWI trenches to MG fire with a bolt action rifle, or the beach landings of WWII and climbing those cliffs at Point du Hoc in WWII, then Korea and Vietnam......... our elected leaders decieve us, drop the ball regulary with their neglect, corruption, greed, and when they fail they rally for Patriots to come and fight the good fight.

The Republic has run it's course, and short of a miracle this goverment has been and will continue to evolve into something else. There is no use in voting for the main 2 party candidates anymore, they are all pretty much going in the same direction. Sure there might be a few exceptions to that. But on the whole 3rd party people will reflect trusted values.
 
I always love threads on this subject. Folks wax eloquently on-and-on. The decline is easily explained with one word, "slavery." Cutting through all the lofty-sounding rhetoric, can we not admit that historical poetic justice is upon us? Slavery will most likely prove to have been the undoing of Western Civilization.
 
I mean, who could agree that being a free individual answering only to God for his actions could be a bad thing? - amprecon
Click to expand...

That would be antisocial or worse, probably an anarchist as well. Those are not good things.
 
While I don't agree that America has failed, I do agree that there are some major problems with our government and with many citizens of this fine nation.

I view the problem as analagous to being the heavyweight champion of the world in Boxing (or the #1 in any sport). Basically, you start out as an underdog and fight your way up, constantly being underestimated and having to prove yourself. This underestimation causes fires of passion to ignite within our souls, and we take action to move up the ladder.

Then comes the day when we fight the heavyweight champ and win. Now it's us--we are the champ.

What happens next, to me, is a defining moment of what makes a person (or a nation) "tick". If we remember where we came from, why we're here, how hard we fought to get here, and what we've sacrificed, then we will continue fighting every fight just like we fought our first one--with "110%" effort put in for everything in which we believe.

If, however, we become complacent by thinking "we're the champs, we don't need to prove ourselves anymore," or if we get uncomfortable being on top with "a target on our backs," then this is a problem. Derrick Thomas, a former linebacker for the Kansas City Chiefs once said, "If you get to a point where you don't strive to get better, you can only go down from there." Truer words were never spoken, and this is why our nation is where it is today.

Pay attention in sports... it's very much analagous of what happens in the world. The real champs--the ones who keep winning year after year--fight every time with the same tenacity that they've always had. The guys who were good fighters but lacked the heart of a champion are the ones who win the title once and go down from there. They view it as a one time battle--but it's never-ending war if you want this nation to remain the land of the free.

It is complacency and the resultant lack of participation in voting that have largely led to the current state of affairs.

However, the good news is that if we continue to be vigilant, fight for what we believe, and recruit others to do the same, then we can vote the shmucks out of office and put someone who values the ideals of our forefathers in office.
 
I don't believe it's failed at this point but I also believe it is on it's way, if for no other reason than history- All the great civilizations have eventually gone by the way side, and I see no reason to believe that ours will be any different- I believe it is the natural course of events- I also do not think that this is a better country to live in now than even 50 years ago- We are inundated with restrictive laws that were unthikable a half a century ago-

I do not think our overall moral fiber is as strong to overcome the types of adversities that my Father's generation did- My Father was born in 1920- His generation was hardened in the twin crucibals of the depression and WW2- They looked at hardship as the natural course of things that had to be overcome with hard work just to survive- Since then we have become soft with the easier life that generation created for us- We have not been smart enough to balance the "better" life with the realization that if we didn't follow in the footsteps of that generation's work ethic, we would loose the edge that made us great in the first place- We have become soft expecting the good life, and giving up our father's freedoms for the easier path of letting the government determine too much of our lives in exchange for the entitlement mentality-

I was born in 1945 and with the benefit of age I am able to say with conviction that this is not a better place to live than 50 years ago- I am sorry for my children and my grandchildren because they will not have the freedoms that I had- The death of this "experiment" is a certainty, it's just a matter of how long it will take- If you don't believe it take a crash course in the rise and fall of all civilizations since recorded history- We are not special my friends, but rather just another blip to follow the same path as those extending back thousands of years-
 
Actually, time grows short for the Republic. But all is not lost. However, the longer I think about it, I agree with the sentiment of longeyes, that a succession and different country known as America which holds our original ideals may be necessary soon.
 
The rhetoric of defeat is old news. When I first became politically aware it was from being befriended by a few anti income tax patriots. The rhetoric of defeat was strong even back in the early eighties.

Those of us who believe in the principles of freedom must work within the system to change it from the inside.

Marginalizing ourselves by abandoning the Republican party is going to speed up the decline of our nation.

Old school Democrats need to retake control of their party. While I will never vote Democrat the republicans of today are becoming more liberal than old school Dems.

The time it will take to get a third party to the point where it will have an impact will be long enough for the two parties to descend into full blown socialism/fascism.

Our voices will only be heard if the R's and D's think they might get our votes. If they write us(gun owners) off as third party voters we're doomed. We will have no representation at all.
 
Of course it is over.

There are too many people living in this country who cannot or will not work for their fair shares. Poverty ensues. When poverty ensues, an uncivilized nation will see much bloodshed; while a civilized nation will see a steady decline of personal liberty, responsibility and accountability through massive social programs and legislation, in order to promote economic equality and to attempt to cure the societal problems inherent in poverty-concentrated areas (urban). This leads to the oppression of all because of the laziness or malfeasance of a few. One is no longer expected to sacrifice materialism or capital, or to attain equality through personal gain or decision-making.

What this ultimately leads to is the widely accepted notion of the Progressive Bill of Rights: You have the right to not be offended. You have the right to feel safe and secure. You have the right to the pursuit of happiness, financial independence, and health care, regardless if you worked for it or not.

The illegal immigration issue that looms ahead will increase these problems exponentially, as all issues with population growth do.
 
I think left and right are starting to agree on one thing: The two major parties in this country shot their wad a long time ago, and no longer have anything to offer to the citizens they supposedly represent. They're now corrupt political self-preservation and cronyism machines. A viable third party is long overdue, and maybe even a fourth. How about this? Former Repubs go Libertarian, former Dems go Green, and American politics starts over again.
 
Soylent Green despite having the ultra-goofy much ridiculed "it's made out of people...PPPEEEOOOOPPPLLLLEEEE!!!!" had a really interesting vision of the future that is starting to ring true.

It was: there's people everywhere, technologically things have mostly regressed, there's less food, everything's broken, and there isn't much left to fix it. If you've ever been to India or China you start to get that impression immediately. The US is still a few hundred million people away from that thankfully.

But the bottom line is people are going to keep reproducing successfully (even if the birdflu kills 2 billion of us). And at some point we will reach the carrying capacity of the land. Then we're going to end up like every other animal on this planet, fighting and killing each other for basic survival long enough to mate so our kids can do the same.

That's going to suck.

We have to figure out some way to keep going for another 100 to 200 years or so with a decent amount of scientific research so we can finally get off this planet and into space. I've got my tinfoil hat and shiny silver jumpsuit all folded and packed for that day. (Oh yeah and my uber awesome laser gun)
 
"Those that believe in the originial Constitutional Republic that we had..."

...probably haven't read enough history to realize how early the powerful central government developed. IMNSHO. John

www.tax.org/Museum/1777-1815.htm

"1786 Government inefficiencies encountered during and after the Revolutionary war, particularly with respect to matters of taxation and finance, frustrated a growing number of influential public figures. This group of nationalists * George Washington, Robert Morris, James Madison, Benjamin Franklin, John Jay, Alexander Hamilton, and John Adams, to name a few * advocated a stronger central government to administer fiscal and commercial policies directly, rather than devolving control to the individual states. Nationalists had several concerns. The intransigence of states like New York and Rhode Island prevented the passage of a tariff, impeding the national government's ability to pay its bills. Furthermore, a number of states had decided to discharge some of the national debt on their own, undermining Morris's plan for the Confederation government to assume the debt burden unilaterally. But without a revenue-raising mechanism of its own or timely contributions from the states, the Confederation could not hope to pay even the interest on the national debt. As early as 1780, Hamilton had warned that "without revenues, a government can have no power. That power which holds the purse-strings absolutely, must rule."


Currency issued separately by New York, Pennsylvania, and the Continental Congress. The rapidly depreciating Continental currency gave rise to the disdainful expression "not worth a Continental." (larger version)
The fiscal and monetary policies the individual states adopted threatened to undermine the stability of the national economy. In an effort to avoid raising taxes, and in response to the petitions of debtor interests, state legislatures endorsed the emission of large volumes of paper money. As had been the case during the War, currencies rapidly depreciated, and creditors despaired of recouping a fair value on the funds they had advanced. They also resented relief bills that interfered with the collection of private debts. Holders of government securities, meanwhile, disliked the fact that southern legislatures were granting tax relief to specific groups of citizens, thus diminishing the flow of revenue and delaying redemption of public debts.

In September, James Madison organized a commercial convention at Annapolis [external link], Maryland, to discuss tariff and taxation policies. Only five states sent delegates. Subsequently, Madison and Alexander Hamilton called for a convention in Philadelphia, to be held in the summer of 1787, that would address the powers and responsibilities of the Confederation."
 
The rhetoric of defeat is old news.
Click to expand...
Yes it is -- people tend to find despair very romantic. Despite an alleged Chinese curse to the contrary, people yearn to live in intersting times. The cult of angst is alive and well in the USA.

We got problems folks -- my head's nowhere near the sand -- but I ain't giving up yet. The pendulum's swung a bit too far for our taste...

...but it is a pendulum.
 
Stick a fork in it. It's done.

The class model in this country is roughly:
politicians & celebrities > police > news reporters > everyone else

The politicians in congress do not listen to their constituents and pander to criminals instead of the taxpaying citizen. (illegal shamnesty)

They vote to give themselves pay raises and more benefits regardless of what a terrible job they are doing. (congressional approval is at 22%, if I had a 22% performance rating at my job I'd be canned, not given a pay raise)

They do not have to abide by the rules that regular citizens are routinely imprisoned for. (no DUI for the kennedy whelp?)

We spent $285 BILLION and lost 2500 American lives 8000 miles halfway around the world. But putting federal troops on the border is completely out of the question. Yep, Ben Franklin, George Washington, Thomas Jefferson and James Madison envisioned the true purpose of the federal army as going overseas to topple governments. Nevermind American troops defending American territory and US citizens, that'd be politically incorrect.

The republic is finished. The only question now is whether we live in a feudal society or a police state.
 
Checkman said:
So is it over? Are we a victim of our own success?
Click to expand...

Depends on whether you consider Americans victims.

Soviet premier Nikita Khrushchev once prediced that, in reference to capitalism, "Мы вас похороним!" (roughly translated: "We will bury you"); which he later explained, "Whether you like it or not, history is on our side. We will bury you" - a meaning more akin to "we will attend your funeral" than "we shall cause your funeral". He went on to explain, "Of course we will not bury you with a shovel. Your own working class will bury you" (Nikita Khrushchev on QuotationsPage.com).

The meaning here is plain. The United States cannot be destroyed externally, but has already begun the process of destroying itself from within. The degree of this destruction is subject to some debate; I suggest that teh abandonment of morals in this nation hastens its end. We are not, nor ever were, a secular nation and this nation's current adoption of secular idealism and secular culture is the knife wound that rips our heart and makes us, as you say, victims.
 
I suggest that teh abandonment of morals in this nation hastens its end. - Camp David
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Injecting morality issues into national level politics is likely the more damaging. Our distraction with abortion and gays very much overshadows what should be higher priorities. Of course, the cause is a Supreme Court and District Courts ruling in ways that were never intended. You also have a Congress and executive branch that will not challenge them directly.
 
RealGun said:
Injecting morality issues into national level politics is likely the more damaging.
Click to expand...

This thread's subject, RealGun, is the decline of America and how that is perceived. Morality plays a large part in American history, unless, of course, you were schooled by a secular academian who totally ignored American history. You cannot "inject" morality into politics or American history, simply because it is already there. Case in point: The Declaration of Independence, The U.S. Constitution, and The Bill of Rights.
 
You shouldn't pretend that you are dealing from a factual position. These things are opinions subject to debate. Separation of church and state is not a fantasy. It is not black and white either.
 
RealGun said:
Separation of church and state is not a fantasy.
Click to expand...

Sorry. The claimed "separation," while perhaps not a fantasy, is certainly a fiction and may indeed be a perceived fantastic development never intended by the Founders.
 
It is what it is.

From the getgo this land and the people who live here were and are, special?... different?... idealists?... in that they worked towards an idea so unusual in the history of mankind, "that all men are created equal" basing their/our politics on freedom(s) for the individual with the government held in checks and balances via branched responsibilities.

Some things had to evolve. Slavery of one race. Genocide of the natives. Our Isolation as policy. Women's rights. For the most part, we still hold the individual above the collective. This evolution will be the downfall we fear most. Yet it seems to be a natural course of order to find safety in numbers, to gather together as a group (witness THR/TFL etc) of like minded individuals.

Our politics evolved from a states rights mindset into a Federal mindset, each at odds with the concept of an individual who cherishes his freedom. His inalienable rights. Our economy is loosely based on free market captialism with it's own special pluses and minuses. Our morals and values are still in place, but suffer at the hands of fools, of which there are many. Some in Political power. Some in business. Some in Church. Some in Education. Some in your neighborhood.

But look around you. Look at our "culture", our civilization...

Look at and marvel at the fact that people still die, trying to get here and partake of the fruit, either legally or (as has always been the case) illegally.
We send our kids off to fight for either freedom for others or for business' sake. Sometimes both. Too often for the wrong cause, some would have you believe. Maybe rightfully.

Look at how we treat our enemies after the fact, once warfare has ended.
See how our people and our government respond when natural disaster strikes anywhere in the world.

Of course we have problems. Issues. Of course we don't play fair. Life isn't fair. Power is to be used. Wealth is to be created. Resources to be utilized.

Each comes with a price. The good Lord gave everyone two legs. Some people just run faster than others.

And know that all we can really do, is enjoy our lives. Work as we need to in order to pay our bills. Raise our families so they know right from wrong and hopefully, most will act accordingly. Treat other people the way we want them to treat us. And keep an eye on our government and the actions of outsiders whose own course of action affects our day to day activity.

Or not.

Sometimes the glass is half empty. Or is it? Seems to me it depends on your point of view.
 
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