"You wouldn't shoot someone, would you?"

Rio, methinks your old girlfriend just told you:

1. Who she voted for in '04, and
2. Who she'll vote for in '08.

The Lethal-Self-Defense-At-The-Point-Of-Attack issue is nearly always a culture-war litmus test... and a show-stopper with folks whose political ideology is grounded in an unswerving belief in (a) the Tooth Fairy and (b) the power of the All-Join-Hands-And-Sing "Kumbaya" movement to thwart evil.

To recoup any lost ground with your friend, consider immediate enrollment in attitude/behavioral adjustment seminars with titles like "Non-Violent Conflict Resolution" and "Social Justice In Interpersonal Transactions," etc. These wonderful life-learning experiences may not enhance your Street Sense and Survivability quotient, but they'll make you, umm, Get In Touch With Your Feelings!!

Then, after you take a few such seminars, consider buying your friend a ticket to Gunsite or the Lethal Force Institute. Tell her it's For The Common Good/The Children, blah blah, etcetera.

My usual answer goes something like "which would you find easier to live with....killing a criminal, or watching that criminal do as he chooses with your loved ones".

Most haven't looked at if from that perspective.

You wouldn't shoot someone, would you?

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There's a huge difference between wanting to kill someone and needing to kill someone. You need not worry about me because I'm not in the former category. However, should I ever find myself in the latter, yes, I would.

She said she couldn't imagine me killing anyone.

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Neither could I, but as bad as it might be, I think it would be worse for my kids to grow up without their Mom or Dad or to lose one of my kids.

That didn't seem to change her negative opinion on using lethal force to protect oneself.

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To segregate the pacifists from the posers one has to fire back with questions about the most viceral and violent what if scenarios.

With women one can quip, "I just cannot fathom you getting raped. How could you just sit by and do nothing?"

Ask the parent of small children, "How could you just sit by and allow some manic to molest or murder your kids?"

And if the person has even a faint emotional connection to their aged parents, "You mean you would sit by and watch as some psychotic beat your elderly Mom or Dad to death?"

A true and absolute pacifist would allow such things to happen, but most people aren't true and absolute pacifists. Most people will budge when confronted with these what ifs. "Well, if it was a choice between being raped, or watching my kids raped, or my Mom murdered, then I guess, yes, I would fight back."

At this point, ya got 'em. "So, why then are you denying me the option to do something even YOU would do?"

The problem is your friend probably believes in "collective rights" rather than "individual rights". Given my upbring, way of thinking, etc, etc, it is always an issue that bothers me.

It really comes down to this:

Natural Law (that is, how nature is regardless of Humanities idealized picture) is that when face with mortal danger (ie a predator) you either flee or fight. With natural law, it doesn't matter if you flee and live or fight back and live. In either case your actions are justified.

Human Law, however, is not so elegant let alone simple. There are those that subscribe to the tenants of natural law. There are, however, those that subscribe that humans are better because we can choose. Those that claim we can choose also elevate the ability to choose above the instinct of flight or fight. Because we can choose, so they say, flight or die should be the rule of Human Law. Fight is never an option.

Alas, just like Physics is often not intuitive, neither is human behavior let alone survival. At the end of the day, in adverse conditions, you will survive because you have skill. Your friend may survive because of luck. At the end of the day, that is unfortunately reality.

The best answer I ever heard for "why do you carry?" is
"In case I need to shoot someone"

“It’s a hell of a thing, killing a man.” I think that’s the line, which I’ve quoted because I believe it to be true.

For the vast majority of people, killing their own kind comes neither quickly nor easily. To be honest, I’m not sure if this is a good or bad thing. Does it prevent large amounts casual violence, or does it make us hesitate to act against the few evil ones in our midst?

I dreamed on this matter just a few weeks ago. A criminal had been released from prison, and I knew he was going after someone who had testified against him. For some reason, I had to defend this witness, but when the would-be murderer arrived, I hesitated. I couldn’t draw and fire until the killer drew his own weapon. By then, of course, it was too late for the man I was supposed to protect.

I certainly don’t want to have to kill anyone, but if it ever comes to that, I had better not hesitate for even an instant.

~G. Fink

I agree, I have been in a situation that luckily I did not have to fire, but was close enough that it left no doubt as to weather I would if it was neccesary.
I had the hammer back & the finger was just coming off the trigger guard when he complied with my second request to freeze.
The decision time is why I preach about being aware of your surroundings, it is the best self defense tool any of us have.

If you don't know if you can shoot someone or not, I don't think you should be carrying...

I remember during the whole Y2K thing. Rather than being holed up in some cabin in the woods. I chose to go to VEGAS..BABY.

Hotel rooms were scarce then and I managed to get a nice one, so everyone and their mother decided to use my room as a meeting point.

Anyways, one of my friends was looking for something and I told her it was in my suitcase. She instead opened up my duffle bag and said "OH SHOOT" when she saw I had an AK, some drums/mags, and a few pistols all loaded (but unchambered).

She said what the hell is that for. I said "look around you....this whole city is packed to the hilt with drunken people, all the lights may go out in a few hours and with all that cash laying around, do you really think everyone is going to be nice and sit around and sing campfire songs?".

Think she got the point real quick.

Usually when I get this silly pacifistic response I ask "So, you ever been robbed before? No? Well when it happens to YOU you'll understand what I'm talking about."

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Reminds me of a conversation I had years ago;

Wild-Eyed Female Anti-Gun Fanatic: "Do you know what it's like to be shot?

Me: "Yes, ma'am, I do."

WEFAGF: "Ah . . . how could you know what it's like to be shot?"

Me: "I have two Purple Hearts."

WEFAGF: <silence>

Me: "You were going to give me a lecture on what it feels like to be shot, weren't you? So how do you know what it feels like?"

WEFAGF: <Turns red in the face and walks off>

Me: "You were going to give me a lecture on what it feels like to be shot, weren't you? So how do you know what it feels like?"

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She deserves a big Nelson Muntz (bully on The Simpsons), "Ha, ha! You got shamed!"

She deserved a goose between her enormous buttocks as she waddled away, but my wife was watching, so I refrained.

I've always though that conversation typifies the antis -- their imagination trumps anyone else's reality.

...asked me if I would yell "I have a gun" or fire a warning shot...

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I had a person ask me about warning shots. I looked at him like he was a bug on the back side of a hog and asked,
"Where? Where exactly am I going to fire this 'warning shot'? Into the ground where is might ricochet and hit my wife? In the air where it might come down on an innocent child? Maybe over his head where it could hit my neighbor’s daughter? No... I think I’ll take a shot at the guy who is doing something wrong and spare the innocents.”

Can you tell I practiced that for just such an occasion.

He was stunned that I had actually put some thought into this and was not just a gun toting psycho like all gun owners (read extremists) as documented in the movies and the MSM. He was rather quiet on the subject after that.

As for yelling "Stop!"; that's for kids about to run into the street not burglars and rapists in my house.

My response to the thread title

I hope to God that I will never have to shoot anyone, but will if I need to protect myself, my family......or you for that matter......from harm.

If you do shoot someone, it will stay with you the rest of your life. I've been there and done that. It's not something you want to carry around with you.

Been asked that before...

"You wouldn't shoot someone, would you?"

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I always qualify my response... "Only bad guys and only when they deserve a good shootin'."

I've always though that conversation typifies the antis -- their imagination trumps anyone else's reality.

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Wow! That is one of the most truly profound statements I've seen in these forums ... its something I've known for a long time but was never able to say so succinctly.

I'd say it goes for "progressives", "liberals" and "statists" in general, not just on the gun subject.

If you do shoot someone, it will stay with you the rest of your life. I've been there and done that. It's not something you want to carry around with you.

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I've never had to and never want to. I know me. I will need LOTS of care and help if I ever do. I think only Mall Ninjas, Couch Commandos, and Members of The Chair National Guard ever think about shooting someone as a good thing.

I think a lot of our humorous defensive responses are from the fact that we know that we don't know what it would feel like. But we know it would not feel good. Can’t beat gallows humor for keepin’ you sane.

Reminds me of a conversation I had years ago;

Wild-Eyed Female Anti-Gun Fanatic: "Do you know what it's like to be shot?

Me: "Yes, ma'am, I do."

WEFAGF: "Ah . . . how could you know what it's like to be shot?"

Me: "I have two Purple Hearts."

WEFAGF: <silence>

Me: "You were going to give me a lecture on what it feels like to be shot, weren't you? So how do you know what it feels like?"

WEFAGF: <Turns red in the face and walks off>

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That's a textbook example of what the kids today call pwned.

I started carrying 'part time' last year to get the feel for it and get comfortable with the rig (i've tried 3 so far), but I never took it into my girlfriends house because of her young daughter.

Then one of the neighbors had a VERY suspiscous incident (won't tell, they might read this board) and then I told her about the gun I leave in the car.

Now the gun can come into the house and the daughter has been instructed on gun safety... but when she wanted to hold it etc I said no.

Mom is happy, I am happy, kid still doesn't know what my gun looks like

To shoot or not to shoot

Having grown up with firearms...my first 22 at age 5, my first Colt Govt 1911 at age 12..and 1st Mini-14 at age 14. All of which I worked and saved inorder to purchase these myself. I am now 41. During my teen years I worked for various gunshops and military surplus dealers. So the question of lethal force came up often.
For my own point of view. I hope I am never in the situtation where the use of lethal force is called for. My own moral-ethical choice is that I would have to have absoluty no way out and was in an immediate threat to my life, the life of a love one, or the life of an innocent bystander. I have always tried, and so far so good to avoid such situtations. Always having an "out". I am not paranoid about that bullet with my name on it. But there are so many criminals with bullets labelled "to whom it may concern". I have had a firearm pointed at me three times in my life...and shot at once (I didnt even relize that the kid shot at me until after the fact...I thought it was a firecracker going off. Once that situtation was over only then did it sink in). But if the worse case senerio were to accure....Then I believe I would react as I have been trained and shoot to defend my life, and/or lives of others....But I pray this never accures.

...asked me if I would yell "I have a gun" or fire a warning shot...

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I would have responded..."I don't like wasting bullets".

Or a typical HighRoader response would be "do you know how hard it is to find good miltary surplus ammo now a days, why waste what I have"

The scientific name for an animal that doesn't either run from or fight its enemies is lunch.

- Michael Friedman

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If you aren't willing to do what it takes to save your life or the life of your family, then it is you who is morally bankrupt.

Somewhat off and on topic....

The mentality of the, um, "socially worried" strikes me somewhat strange.

They say:

A) I believe in evolution
and yet
B) I think the government can/should/will take care of you so you don't evolve.

I'm not quite sure how A & B add up. :banghead:

Just one of those random thoughts that occur randomly at random times when you do random things......

Now me, I think evolution is just fine....and the Darwin Awards are good examples of it in action...http://www.DarwinAwards.com/

Search for "gun" or "Caveat emptor" especially!

But then I'm also "centrist libertarian" and think the guvmint is way too big and intrusive.

So I carry to protect. Never want to use it that way, but will pull that trigger 5 times if I have to.

And thanks for the ideas and responses to those who "don't quite get it" I'm putting them in my little catchphrases book