2A Dems that won

Status
Not open for further replies.

John Hicks

Member
Joined
Jul 7, 2004
Messages
143
Just curious here:
I kept hearing last night how many centrist Dems were winning and that not too many of the rabid liberals were put into the contested races. Most of them pitted a moderate dem against an incumbent republican.

How many are pro 2A?

Heath Shuler comes to mind -- conservative, but not sure he is on 2A stuff. Also, a lot are polical newbies, which means they may be voting their district rather than party lines. Naive, I know, but representatives are usually more responsible than senators in this regard.

JH
 
I kept hearing last night how many centrist Dems were winning and that not too many of the rabid liberals were put into the contested races. Most of them pitted a moderate dem against an incumbent republican.

The rabid liberal Dems control the party leadership, and thus committee assignments and the purse strings. So the centrists will either tow the party line or be replaced the next primary.

Only wildly popular or long time incumbent Dems get the right to go their own way.
 
the media defines "centrist" pretty far to the left of center. We have a "centrist" Democrat congressman who votes against anti gun bills that are not going to pass anyway and for the ones that are squeekers. He put the AWB over the top when Speaker Foley held the gavel on the vote. Says that he is generally pro second amendement but voted for the awb because " assault rifles are designed to kill people."
 
So the centrists will either tow the party line or be replaced the next primary.

Joe Lieberman is the most recent example of this. I'm glad the voters of Connecticut re-elected him as an independent. He is one the few Democrats I respect.
 
Joe Lieberman is the most recent example of this. I'm glad the voters of Connecticut re-elected him as an independent. He is one the few Democrats I respect.

Ah yes, Joe Lieberman, (D-Likud), the whining wet noodle.

I think there's better examples.
 
The rabid liberal Dems control the party leadership, and thus committee assignments and the purse strings. So the centrists will either tow the party line or be replaced the next primary.

You hear this a lot, but I've not seen it happen. Can you give me an example of an RKBA Dem at the national level that had to change his vote because of pressure, or was tossed overboard by the leadership and had his throat slit by Chuck Schumer and Ted Kennedy because he didn't abandon the RKBA?

Specific examples please. I'll assume that the Dems who didn't vote to extend the AWB fall into the rubric of "wildly popular" guys who didn't have to toe the line.
 
My district sent Boren (D) back to Congress. He was "A" rated by the NRA and they supported him. Our Democratic Governor was reelected. Same thing, A rating by the NRA and supported by them. It was interesting that I received my American Rifleman and they had two candidate recommendations personalized on the cover for me. Boren and Henry. Two Democrats.

There are lots of the younger Democrats like that. There is no way those Democrats are going to support any major new gun control efforts. Some kind of incremental increase to "get along with the leadership," maybe.

Don't worry about it. The majorities are tiny. The next two years will feature a bunch of light and noise from the Democratic side but I seriously doubt they can muster a majority for something like an AWB. They will give big speeches but pass very little. Especially since some of the RINO's are gone. DeWine had an F rating. Chaffee had an F rating. I would rather have a Democrat with a better rating than either one of those two!

And here is the big ray of hope for all you pessiments. We were better off losing now than later. There is a LOT of discontent with Bush. If the GOP had somehow held on to the House and the Senate, the left and even much of the center would have lathered themselves into a frenzy by 2008. It would have been 1992 all over again. Big majorites in both houses for the Democrats and a Democratic President. This way we take some of the pressure off now while still having a Republican President. The nation gets to actually hear some specific legislative plans from the Democrats. They get to see how they act when they are in charge. The GOP has always worked better in opposition. Come 2008, the middle will be ready to swing back toward the GOP.

Ask yourself this basic political question: did the ideology of the country change? Do people now want higher taxes and bigger government? Do they want the unions to have more say in government? Do they want government controlled medicine? Do they want big cuts in the military? Do they want more law suits and more lawyers? I would argue they don't want that stuff any more now than they did in 2004. The ideology of the left is still very much a minority in the US. The population just voted against Bush.

IMO, the door is wide open for McCain. I don't say that with any pleasure but he is ideally placed for 2008. Better than Hillary, anyway.

Gregg
 
The Dems and their press (CNN, ABC, NBC, CBS, NYT, WP, etc) have been really quiet about gun control since they realized that it cost Al Gore the election. It happened suddenly, and completely, as if it was ordered from on high. Since then, school shootings, gang violence and slaughters of Amish girls are all reported, but the gun control issue just doesn't seem to come up. All these things would have kept the demands for stricter gun control on the front page pre-Gore. But they've kept their mouths shut about it ever since. And it's been universal. It's curious that all these different organizations came to the same conclusion at the same time and reacted in the same way. :scrutiny:

There is no question in my mind that the anti-gunners have been gathering their strength and waiting to regain their political power. This time, tho, I expect them to keep pretty quiet about it and try to sneak new restrictions in as riders on other bills. They may be wrong, but they aren't stupid. They will shoot at us from behind cover from now on. And I don't see Bush vetoing something important, just to fight off such stuff.

It will be interesting to see how NM Democrat governor Bill Richardson fares between now and 2008, when he is expected to get into the presidential dog fight. He was just re-elected with a 67% majority. One of the first things he did as a new governor was to sign NM's concealed carry law, even tho the NM Democrat left wing had fought hard against it. On the other hand it was a Democrat state representative who sponsored it. (New Mexico isn't New Jersey, after all). Richardson will be on the presidential campaign scene between now and '08, and it will be interesting to see how the Democrat party elite reacts to him. I doubt if they would let him run for president, but maybe VP. He's Hispanic, has the NRA behind him, was Energy Secretary under Clinton, has dealt personally, and more or less successfully, with that North Korean wierdo, and is a very competent politician. He ain't much to look at tho, so women aren't going to swoon (and vote) for him like they did Clinton.

More grid-lock in congress would be fine with me. Most of their "accomplishments" seem to cost me money or take away some of my freedom, and don't really solve any problems. And if the Democrats lose control of themselves and show their true nature, so much the better.
 
Jim Webb got an A from the NRA, and has a carry permit.

Jon Tester is very pro gun.

Bob Casey is pro-gun.

The Democrats know that one way to quickly lose control again is to come out against gun owners.
 
I'm fine with gridlock in congress as a side effect, just not as a reason for voting against someone.

I just know too many people who didn't know who they were voting for, just that they were voting against the (R). Not too smart on the electorate.

Granted, a lot of these lame-o's deserved to be sent packing and it sends a good message for the future: anyone can lose. We all know how much potential we had for getting some real 2A (and general small government, libertarian "hands off") reform through. But it got squandered with power consolidation, power brokering scandals, and power drunkenness (and its associated irresponsibility). I for one was very disappointed, but not enough to unseat my rep or senator (but then again, neither was a target of the scandals).

Not fully depressed yet -- still holding out hope. I said it in another thread -- this effectively cleans the slate for the 2008 elections by removing the "Bush factor" from voters minds.

Just too much to process . . .
 
Ted Strickland, the Democratic Governor-Elect of Ohio is allegedly pro-gun and will sign the CCW reform bill.

I'm sceptical. His Lt. Gov. is Lee Fisher, an F- HCI board member. The outgoing Republican governor, Bob Taft is a crook, and lukewarm on 2A issues at best.

If Strickland does what he says, I'll give him credit. I have my doubts.
 
Jim Webb got an A from the NRA, and has a carry permit

Feinstein had a carry permit as well. And all Webb did was answer questions. His true views have yet to be tested.

As for 2nd A Dems who got booted or abandoned, you won't find any evidence of that for some time. They had Republicans providing cover for them for years. But you can find Lieberman, who didn't toe the party line, and was defeated in the primary as a result. Think he would have been if the Dem party leadership had supported him, rather than undermining his primary campaign? And when you look back through Congress over the years, you will find committee chairs going to those who are in favor. That's one of the accepted perks of being in charge.
 
Last edited:
John Dingell, D-MI, is pretty much pro-2A. But any Dem could get "dealed" into a "yes" vote on a new AWB. Go along to get along, or something like that. All Dems will be aware of the vindictiveness of the Speaker.
 
I definitely was not anti-Webb, but I like Allen.

He's a small government guy. He's voted in a matter that has made me trust he won't screw me over.

Webb owes a lot of favors now -- who knows how he'll vote. But if Allen can be unseated despite his popularity, Webb should know that Virginians are keeping score.
 
So the centrists will either tow the party line or be replaced the next primary.

I don't think that is an accurate statement.

There are two NRA "A" Rated Democrat US Representatives from Georgia that I know of, who are both long time incumbents. They are Sanford Bishop and Jim Marshall. There has never been an attempt by Democrats to replace them, and neither have ever towed the party line on gun control. I am sure people in other states could cite similar examples.

I think the idea that Democrats all must tow the party line on the gun issue is just made-up fantasy of Republican party apologists who are trying to scare people into voting for a party whose performance has been disappointing.
 
"cost Al Gore the election. It happened suddenly, and completely, as if it was ordered from on high. .."

They might try to downplay gun control unitl they have the presidency as well but I don't believe Schumer and Pediculosi will be able to contain themselves . I expect them to introduce the anti second amendment stuff pretty quick. On the foreign front, Iran and North Korea might also wait to make it a clean sweep but they may decide that the Democrats will be able to curb any military response from the Bush whitehouse and go ahead and let slip the dogs of war etc.
 
There are two NRA "A" Rated Democrat US Representatives from Georgia that I know of, who are both long time incumbents.

If you are going to call someone a liar, you might want to read what they wrote, namely:

Only wildly popular or long time incumbent Dems get the right to go their own way.
You cited two incumbents as evidence that my statement about incumbents is wrong? Nice.
 
but I don't believe Schumer and Pediculosi will be able to contain themselves . I expect them to introduce the anti second amendment stuff pretty quick.
Good, let's hope so and find out where those NRA "A"-rated Democrats really stand.
 
Some positives

Arms-Bearing Can Bear the Defeat
The Second Amendment emerges from the election relatively unscathed.

By Dave Kopel

The Second Amendment has emerged from the biggest Democratic victory since 1974 with relatively little damage. One reason is that in races all over the country, Democrats returned to their Jefferson-Jackson roots by running candidates who trust the people to bear arms.

I do not disagree that the Democratic gains in Congress will, on the whole, be harmful for the economy, and extremely dangerous for the war against Islamofascism.

Nevertheless, the class of pro-gun Democrats who will be joining the House and the Senate includes some who will eventually become party leaders, and who will help move the Democratic party back towards its traditional position of respect for the civil liberties of the American people. A very constructive development, in the long run.

The information below is based on the results as of early Wednesday morning. The ratings cited below are from the National Rifle Association.

Governors: In a year in which Democrats gained a half-dozen governorships, only one pro-gun incumbent governor was defeated. Pro-gun Republican incumbents who repelled anti-gun challenges included Schwarzenegger (Calif.), Carcieri (R.I.), and Douglas (Vt.). After trailing for months, Tim Pawlenty won a very close re-election in Minnesota, while Jim Gibbons survived a last-minute scare in Nevada.

Democrats Janet Napolitano of Arizona and Jennifer Granholm of Michigan were not considered friendly to the Second Amendment when they were elected, but they helped ensure their re-election by generally supporting Second Amendment rights during their first terms. Bill Richardson of New Mexico, Phil Bredesen of Tennessee, Brad Henry of Oklahoma, and Dave Freudenthal of Wyoming won their first terms by promising to protect Second Amendment rights, and they won easy re-election in part because they kept their promises.

In open seats, winners were pro-gun Democrat Culver (Iowa), and pro-gun Republicans Palin (Alaska), Crist (Fla.), and Otter (Idaho). All of the Republicans defeated candidates with weaker records on the Second Amendment.

Second Amendment activists did not achieve their goals of unseating Jim Doyle (Wisconsin) or Ted Kulongoski (Ore.).

In Maryland, incumbent Governor Bob Ehrlich was rhetorically pro-gun, but did very little to help gun owners. He was defeated by the “F”-rated Martin O’Malley. Next year, the gun-prohibition lobby in Maryland will make a major push to ban self-loading firearms.

The other major Second Amendment loss was in Colorado, where strongly anti-gun Democrat Bill Ritter will replace retiring Governor Bill Owens. In addition, moderately anti-gun George Pataki of New York will be replaced by vehemently anti-gun Democrat Elliot Spitzer.

Retiring anti-gun Republican Governor Bob Taft of Ohio will give way to solidly pro-gun Democrat Ted Strickland. Preliminary results suggest that the Ohio legislature still has a pro-gun majority, so prospects for constructive reform of Ohio laws — particularly pre-emption of local gun bans — appear good.

Net gubernatorial results: -1.5.

Gains: Ohio.

Losses: Colorado, Maryland, and half of one in New York.

Senate: With McCaskill taking Talent’s seat, we lose one seat for Second Amendment rights. In Vermont, Bernie Sander (“C-” rating) will take the place of retiring Jim Jeffords (“B” rated in his last election, but performed worse in his final term), so let’s call that a wash. In all other states, incumbents won, or were replaced by candidates who had nearly identical ratings on gun issues.

Net Senate results: -1.

Of the new pro-gun Democrats, Casey does not appear very deep intellectually, but Webb may emerge as an articulate, well-informed spokesman for America’s traditional culture of gun ownership. Jon Tester of Montana has Second Amendment views that are consistent with his state’s.

Assuming that Tester and Webb win, Majority Leader Reid will be one of a half-dozen generally pro-gun Democrats, along with Baucus, Ben Nelson, and Casey. The number of Democratic Senators who will vote against guns under all circumstances appears to be less then 20 (based on the number who voted in favor of allowing federal funds to be spent on gun confiscation during emergencies, even when the confiscation is not authorized by any law).

House: Pro-gun losses were about half the size of Republican losses — which is another way of saying that many of the Democrats who made the 2006 takeover possible are pro-gun. These include FL 16 (Mahoney), Indiana (Donnelly, Ellsworth, Hill), MN 1 (Walz), NC 11 (Shuler), Ohio (Wilson, Space), PA 4 (Altmire), TX 22 (Lampson), and VT (Welch).

Party control changed in the following races where pro-gun candidates were defeated by gun-control supporters: AZ 5 (Hayworth), CA 11 (Pombo), CO 7 (open), CT 2 (Simmons), IA 1 (open), KS 2 (Ryun), KY 3 (Northrup), NH (Shea, Bass), PA (Weldon, Fitzpatrick, Sherwood), NY 20 (Sweeney), WI 8 (open).

Net House results: -14, which would drop to -15 if Reichert (WA 8) loses his lead.

Several other districts had changes that were only a matter of degree: In NY 24 (open) an “F” rated Democrat took the seat of retiring “D+” rated Sherwood Boehlert. In FL 16, Shaw (“C+” rated) was replaced by an “F” challenger. The Illinois seat of retiring, and inconsistent, Henry Hyde was won by “A” rated Republican Peter Roskama. Democrat Peter Welch (“A” rated) of Vermont will take over the at-large seat vacated by Socialist Sanders (“C-” rated). The sum of the results in these four races is no net change.

There were, of course, many other tough races where pro-rights activists provided the volunteer work and votes that helped keep seats in pro-gun hands. Among these are AZ 1 (Renzi), CA 4 (Doolittle), CO 4 (Musgrave), CO 5 (open, Lamborn), Florida (Buchanan, Keller, Bilirakis), IN 3 (Souder), MN 6 (Bachmann), NM 1 (Wilson), Ohio (Chabot, Schmidt, Tiberi, Pryce), VA10 (Wolf), and WY (Cubin).

Many Democrats are now saying that 2006 is their 1994. Arguably so. The number of 2006 losses by pro-gun candidates, however, is very small compared to the number of 1994 losses by anti-gun candidates. Democratic victories are no longer synonymous with gun control victories.

— Dave Kopel is research director at the Independence Institute.
 
The Democrats don't think with a single mind even though the trend is in that direction. If the party was as unified as say- The Borg, we would have lost all of our guns and private property during earlier periods of Democrat rule.
 
Buzz, sorry about that. I stand corrected. You clearly were referring to new moderates, and I was referring to long time incumbents. I apologize.

However, I still disagree with you. I think this Congress will be more conservative than the Democratic leadership wants, and I think that even the newly elected Democrats will be very cautious about how they vote. They do not want to be too closely associated with people like Pelosi, and I do not think the Democratic leadership will have as much influence over even the new moderates as they have had in the past. Time will tell.
 
Lone Gunman said:
I think the idea that Democrats all must tow the party line on the gun issue is just made-up fantasy of Republican party apologists who are trying to scare people into voting for a party whose performance has been disappointing.

Perhaps you should check the Congressional Record concerning the 1994 Assault Weapons Ban. How many pro-gun Democrats who had voted against the bill prior to 1994 changed when the Dems enforced party discipline on that vote? That is historical fact, not a made-up fantasy of the Republican party.

About all we can do now is hope that the Dems have truly changed their ideology instead of just their PR. We'll get to see that soon enough since an AWB bill will be proposed as soon as the new session starts.
 
We'll find out Casey's true leanings soon enough, but consider this:

Casey opposes gun-control laws, including the 10-year ban on 19 types of assault weapons that expired in 2004. He vowed to aggressively court sportsmen's support by emphasizing his character, his long support for gun owners' rights and his record in state government. "I've been a strong supporter of the second amendment, the right to bear arms. That's evidenced not just by what I've said but the support I've gotten over the last decade from sportsmen's groups, including the NRA," Casey said.

Source: Brett Lieberman, The Patriot News Feb 21, 2006
 
Stick a fork in Allen

Virginia's a done deal. There's going to be a recount I'm sure, but Jim Webb has it in the bag.

Webb appears to be very pro-RKBA on paper. He supported the NRA's position on almost every question on his NRA survey and has a VA carry permit. We'll just have to wait and see if this former Marine (Navy Cross recipient) and Secretary of the Navy has the gonads to stand up to party pressure and vote against new gun control legislation.

I'm hoping that Webb turns out to be a Republican in Democrat's clothing. Will he vote his principles or vote the party line on gun control? Stay tuned -- we'll find out soon enough.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top