Whatever happened to markmanship?

None that take snobs.

Duckster's remarks hardly sound snobbish, G98. Not very high road of you.


Duckster, speaking for myself, I do not shoot rifle (yet), pistol only. I'm new to shooting and my main concern is being able to get all my shots in the circle from 15-25 yds in the event of a home invasion. I am a lousy shot, but I'm getting them all on the paper now!

I see the same thing you describe around here, but only from younger people. I'm 18, and when I take a lot of my friends shooting, it's a rapid fire make loud noise fiasco. Ex: Squirrel shooting with my .22, my friend takes it and unloads the seven round clip as quickly as he can. It was a bolt action, and of course he was off by ten feet every time. (I'm trying to avoid him now since he wants to shoot my shotgun. You can imagine how that would turn out.) It's so bad that I will hand them one round at a time so they make the shot count. And they think I'm being a jerk for doing so.

On the other hand, my freinds that are shooters are all about shot placement, accuracy, and control. We check our groups, evaluate why they grouped that way, pretty much learning how to improve our markmanship. We will only fire as fast as we can get good groups, and we shoot in such a way that we're still having fun, but actually getting something out of it.

the ranges I go to generally have people that can stay on paper, at 100m all the shot up targets generally group less than 6", alot around 2". you'll get a few mooks out there that bump fire at the target board and kick up dirt and bounce bullets over the berm, or shoot their new little glock at the indoor range as fast as they can and bounce rounds off the walls and hit other people's target frames over, but it's not common. a friend of mine is in first infantry, took him to the range with us last month when he was here on leave and shot pistol, he wasn't bad, 7m he grouped at 3" with a taurus 92ar, an about the same with a SIG P220. he doesn't shoot alot of rifle, mostly m2 and mk19 and his sidearm when someone is too high for the m2 to point. I figured it was sufficent for what he does, but there's room to improve.

I haven't really seen the phenomenon out here in West Texas, but I hear more and more stories of hunters gutshooting deer at close ranges. :banghead:

The range I go to has a lot of good marksman that frequent the place. I shoot very slow at the range when I'm on the rifle. Even when I take the AR for a stroll, I'm more concerned with accuracy. There's one older gentleman that shoots nothing but WWI and WWII era bolt-action rifles using his own handloads. He shoots some impressive 100 yard groups with iron sights.

On the pistol range, I've seen some pretty bad shooting though. Some of it was mine until I got better. The ones that crack me up are the kids holding their '9' gangsta style. At least they follow the range rules and keep their muzzle pointed the right direction.

Seems like that's how it is today. Marksmanship out the window. I guess that depends on the character of that person.
Just like being a sniper. Its an "honor" to be one. Some would pass on it though. Their is a lot of things one does not think about when one is being a sniper, or going to be one. Like when, you have to go. If you know what I mean.
Do a google search on ranges in that area of Texas.

And hence, the need for the Appleseed program in America, a volunteer effort to mobilize sleeping American CITIZENS to their responsiilities,and rekindle the flame of liberty, through renewal of the Marksmanship focus of the men and women of 1775.

Please, read at www.rwva.org and continue to drill down through the Appleseed links and the forum!

You'd be surprised at just how much skill can be bought inexpensively at 25 meters!

Pacer

I've encountered two types of shooters at ranges, those who are anal or perfectionists about shot placement and those who just like to blow things up. I'd consider myself alittle bit of both but tend to lean toward simply hitting the target and wacthing it fly than worry about a 1/4" group. Very little doubt I'll miss from 500 yd and below. To each his own I guess.

everyone likes to blow things up every now and then, but the range is no place for that. a friend's land out in the country with a good supply of reactive targets and a few sacks of 40rd AK mags to fire from the hip at full-auto is how you properly blow things up. I find that in the end though, you revert to your 'accuracy first' stance as you shoot full coke cans out of the air with your rifle as a friend tosses them from behind you.

why cant we be both?

I have one of those AR's w/ the 100rd drum I love to "make brass" empty as fast as possible, granted I uaually hit the man size target somewhere as I have been trained to do so. But I also was a designated marksman in the army infantry "one, or two steps below a sniper" and hunt quite often with a single shot 30-06 and can hit where I aim. Thier are many joys of firearms from skeet to precision 1000yd shots, as long as those around are being SAFE, do not get mad But offer your known skills to teach, if accepted great if not let them have fun and "make brass" THINK OF ALL THE MONEY THEY WILL SAVE BY NOT HITTING THE TARGET AND BEING ABLE TO USE THEM OVER AND OVER AGAIN

Combat arms always takes marksmanship seriously. Their lives depend on it.
Didn't have much contact with noncombat arms type when I was in. Except for when I was on KP. The cooks were amazed at my SAW because they had never seen one before. Their attitude was very nonchalant. Almost like their M16's were a necessary annoyance whereas Infantry is drilled to revere your weapon. It is your life.
I had a buddy in another platoon in our (Infantry) company act as OPFOR ambush for a Transportation company. The TC had female soldiers and all that.

He said they slaughtered them. Never stood a chance.
Hopefully they learned something and took their soldiering more seriously.

My friends and I are part of the younger generation

Dear All,
I go out shooting 2-3 times a month, my friends and I usually just shoot pistols. I believe that we are focused on marksmanship- especially because the ammo is so expensive for us, as we are broke students. I have witnessed people just hosing rounds downrange also, however, I think that there is a renewed commitment to marksmanship amongst young shooters- especially with the price of ammo going up. We would rather shoot half a box, and make a nice group, and take 20 minutes to do it, then spray and pray- because either way, we are out the half box of ammo. I know I have a long way to go, but, hopefully, the youth of this country can lead a revival of marksmanship- with our elders showing us the way, and imparting some of their accumulated wisdom to us.

Think about it. Not everybody can be an Army Sniper.

Myself, I wound up as a B-52H evaluator pilot before retiring last May. Our standard joke was "Would you like fries with that?"

Don't tell me what's high road in this thread, thank you. The point of the matter is that it takes all kinds of people to make up our shooting community. Marksmanship, or lack thereof, is in the eye of the beholder. What is good marksmanship to an Army or Marine Corps sniper is probably over the top for the dad who gets his son or daughter their first .22 and just wants to enjoy putting holes in paper or tin cans. Likewise, a benchrester with a hardcore 6mm PPC rig would think the marksmanship of military snipers leaves something to be desired. Here in Wisconsin, the deer herd gets cleaned out pretty nicely by folks who only have to be minute-of-whitetail accurate. Contrary to popular belief, there are all sorts of shooters between the "spray and pray" types to the "bughole at 200 meters" bunch. Berating others in that group is not the way to get more folks interested in either marksmanship training or pro-2A activities.

Myself, I've got M16 and M9 marksmanship medals, done NRA High Power for almost two decades, competed at Camp Perry, currently shoot F-Class and have been written about in Tactical Shooter magazine for hitting a golf ball cold-bore at 500 meters in a sniper match. That doesn't mean I consider myself either a sniper or a consummate marksman, far from it.

If you're a sniper, wonderful - thanks for your service. But don't you dare denigrate those who have neither the means, nor skills, nor desire to go to that level. You want to help, then help, don't lambast others. It may have worked well with your captive-audience underlings in the Army, but on the outside, that technique will do NOTHING to assist the cause. Civilian BS meters peg rather easily. The shooting community needs more takers, fewer and fewer young folks these days are going to the range, competing, or bringing home venison. To waltz onto a popular gun forum and announce "y'all suck in the marksmanship category, officers cannot shoot as well as enlisted, BTW, where is a good range I can join" really smacks of something, and unless tact and diplomacy are taught by the Army, I'd wonder how receptive that new range would be to such an individual's persona.

Lots of shooters at the range where I work are extremely poor shots.

They hold their guns in both hands, send their silhouette targets all the way out to seven yards, and completely miss the paper! I have no idea how anyone could shoot so poorly.

Duckster Quoted:

I've noticed in the last few years in the Army and at ranges that marksmanship has gone out of the window. I've been on so many ranges that people seem to be happier making noises and fast shooting then shot placement. Maybe it is from being a sniper, but I've always prided myself in making every round count. I get up set if I ever miss. In the Army now it is no big deal to NOT to qualify, or barely qualify (Non-Infantry Units) and have they have the thought that it's not important , because the Infantry will protect us or it's somebody elses job to protect us. I instruct all the markmanship classes in my unit to try to push everyone to shoot their best, but it seems only important for the enlisted soldiers. Officers rarely attend, and when they shoot they are unsafe and generally "BOLOW". I actually saw a Commander miss every target on the range.
At civilian ranges it is cool to shoot up dirt, and rapid fire and miss everything , but the ground. I actually witnessed local S.W.A.T. Officers unable to hit a 50 meter target with an M4. Forget the gaurds, they did good pointing it the right way.
My daughters ages 11 and 12 shoot better and take more pride in safety and shot placement than most people I meet.
Is this common everywhere or is it just an isolated incident?

What ever happened to the famed skills of the American Markman?

I plan on reitring in/or around Seminole, Texas. Any ranges or shooting clubs around there?

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Hardly snobbish at all. Matter of a fact I commend you for not retching your guts out on the range. I posted earlier in another thread that officers have a tough time qualifying. I as well as you speak from experience although I am not infantry I am willing to bet I can outshoot alot of "infantry".
Officers claim that they don't have the time to "qualify" "get quiet about it and get their own qualification written and sent into the S-4". There are two standards in the Army Officer and Enlisted. Officer sends and the Enlisted gets it done. I have met only two captains in my entire military career who could shoot damn well and one of them taught me. For the most part Noncombat Arms Officers suck when it comes to the range because they don't have the experience or familiarization in shooting a weapon nor the balls to ask a competant Noncommissioned officer who would respect them tremendously for doing so.
I taught hundreds of soldiers how to shoot and shoot. Not just shoot but bring critical confidence to that very soldier and his weapon. Very few times did I ever see an Officer ever attend any of my classes to bring his training up to par.
I'm with Duckster on this one, you just can't shoot at a 25 meter target and call yourself qualified to shoot long distance but to the Army it saves time.
Confidence comes with training and it doesn't readily show itself until you find yourself between a rock and a hardspot.
Whenever I go to the range with my son I tell him to listen to all of those rounds going off. That's wasted ammunition, you always shoot with a purpose. I am not saying go blow off a hundred rounds off, this is a free country.
If you are an Army officer feel free to PM me I would be glad to talk to you.

I see it a lot, and as long as they are safe I don't care. But I don't think much of them. I do a lot of disciplined shooting from offhand, sitting, and prone, and enjoy NRA/CMP Highpower competition.

I also practice defensive shooting skills, and when I do that I'm probably shooting fast and not making great groups, but I am keeping them center mass. When doing that I don't bump fire of course, but I definately am shooting as soon as the front sight falls back on center mass. I am sure lots of the hunter and bolt action types are rushing to judge me and think I'm a poor shot based on those targets.

Nope, most ranges I've been to are full of these very types of individuals. You just don't let them bother you. When I pull the trigger, regardless of what I'm shooting or how far I'm shooting it, I'm upset when it's not a bullseye. My goal when I was a kid was the exact same thing. My goal when I was in the Marines was to break every range record I stepped foot on.

But that's just me.

Sure there are hordes of people that sit at the pistol range with a AR with all the optics and bells and whistles on it and miss the 7 yard target completely. Yep, in my opinion they are a waste of good brass, or steel because they are usually shooting Wolf ammo.

But you don't let them bother you. You ignore them and let them go about in their goofy spray and pray world.

Who here really cares enough to spot and give a person shooting wrong some help?

If yes, very kind of you. Just watch the ego trip.(if it applies)

If no, quit bitching.

Yes, I have noticed 'the disease' also. It is prevalent.

However I pride myself on my accuracy though, and I also like to make every shot count.

As long as the 'noise makers' support other gun owners and gun rights I support their right to shoot their guns how they wish, and as such I dont make fun of them, laugh or ridicule them.

To find those who shoot well, one must seek them out.

Most people seem to be unaware of what good shooting even is let alone how to accomplish it.

Sadly, it seems that the majority of gun owners are happy to purchase a weapon, shoot it once in awhile, but never really seek out ways to push themselves, whether by taking training courses or striving to do their best in competition.

1. Shooting is less common among Americans than in ages past. Shooters are less likely to start out as young as before or to be required to shoot well in order to eat.

2. High capacity weapons are more common. While I don't think repeating guns degrade accuracy by themselves, marksmanship will receive less emphasis in the population when more people are accustomed to having plenty of rounds.

3. There's definitely a loss of patience with those of us in the younger generations.

To answer the original question: yes, I shoot for accuracy, but not for "perfect" accuracy. I once shot Bullseye Target (sniper-type shooting but without all the other difficult stuff involved in sniper work). I did it purely for accuracy, but that is not my goal at this time.

My goal now is self-protection, which involves a compromise between accuracy and speed.

Different people shoot for different reasons. Even so, I believe you are right about more people these days just wanting to shoot for exciting visual and audio effects and not for improving their shooting ability.