.22 LR and Handguns

hmm, I do own a .22 handgun, in the form of a Beretta Neos.. but you know, I've never even considered it. I wouldn't even think to buy any other ammo then the cheapest target stuff for it. I suppose that's because I would simply NOT use a .22 in a defensive situation, if there were any possible way to avoid it. I'm not trying to troll the topic, and I'm definitely not trying to start up a "its not the caliber, it's where you place it" kind of thing. The simple fact is I have a good deal of training, both in martial arts and with firearms, and I personally would absolutely rely on martial technique and/or a bladed weapon long before I would even make the effort to draw and aim a .22lr firearm against an assailant.

EDIT: By the way , just to play along though, I actually voted for choice #1. In a quick crunch of the numbers the 30g bullet at 1750fps, assuming those numbers were true and perfect(unlikely), would actually give the highest energy by area ratio. On second thought though, while that might be true, the 60gr at 950 would be about 2/3 as heavy as the average .380 round and traveling at very similar velocities. Tough call really.

Ah, in that case then, I would have to say the heavier slower bullet is the way to go. A .22 with that length barrel cant possibly capitalize on a cartridges velocity potential.

Is 1700 some odd FPS attainable in a hand gun? Barrel lenth seems too short for those speeds and a .22. I chose 950 fps for that reason. I would also say If one could acheive these high velocities, that they would penetrate farther. Like the fisrt poster said. what energy is highest.

That 60gr bullet would not likely stabilize in typical .22 rifling, so your penetration would suck.

Does it matter? The only time I could foresee using a .22 in self-defense the weapon would be pressed up against the threat.

I'm thinking, like El Tejon, it won't matter, those derringers are at best point blank weapons.

Definately if your going with a Hollowpoint CCI stingers are the way to go. Here is some GoldenLoki Gel test with a Taurus PT22 ( http://www.goldenloki.com/ammo/gel/22lr/gel22lr.htm ) If your going with a solid I would go with a whatever 30 to 40gr High Velocity round works best (reliability) in the weapon.

The simple fact is I have a good deal of training, both in martial arts and with firearms, and I personally would absolutely rely on martial technique and/or a bladed weapon long before I would even make the effort to draw and aim a .22lr firearm against an assailant.

Click to expand...

Well that is just silly. I don't care how much training you have, your better off plugging someone with a 6 or 7 rounds of .22 from a Neo then trying to take someone out with a Knife and Karate. A .22 will kill, it is just not the best choice out of the other firearm calibers out there. NEVER BRING A KNIFE TO A GUN FIGHT, YOU WILL LOSE.

Respectfully Lonestar, I couldn't disagree with you more. I could respond with an array of reasoning and examples, both scientific and personal. It's not relevant to this thread though. I don't want to steal it away from the point at hand.

Hex...That's cool, but just to warn you when I was a cop, out of the dozen or so dead shooting victims I seen, about 1/4 died from a .22 round. On the other hand I studied Tae Kwon Do for a year and various Self Defense courses, and when I was in the best shape of my life I still lost a few tussles to criminals hopped up on drugs or ex-cons who spent 2-4 years in prison lifting weights and getting into fights.

40 gr at 1280 fps~!

I think that if you are down to your trunks, and you're betting the farm on a .22lr, does it really matter which bullet you choose? I chose CCI Stingers for my NAA .22lr, as it is a hollowpoint design, they shoot well, and they didn't break the bank.

Well, I vote to go find some CCI Mini-Mags. They're what I carry when my 22/45 is on my hip out in the woods. They're hot and reliable, and a .22 needs all the help it can get IMO. These are 40 gr solids and should penetrate nicely.

I'm not sitting here recommending a .22LR as a SD pistol. I'm not even carrying it expressly as a SD pistol while out in the woods. It's there more to deal with things the dog might get into, like porcupines and skunks, or to pop in-season game if the opportunity arises. (Yeah, that's it, we'll see... ) Should the need arise (and I hope the day never comes) a couple of .22s to somebody's face is going to make their day miserable no matter what.

Oh, and anecdotal finding: Federal 36gr bulk pack will penetrate 1.5" of wet, green white pine from 55-60 feet, and look like bent solids when extracted.

the answer is whichever goes the deepest. untill i see gel tests for each from the specified barrel length its a toss up. id love to see gel tests for all the 22lr.

i will say that i have aguilla sss in my pistol at home. thats the 60 grain 950fps. they make it an average of 9 inches and they turn sideways alot. its not .357 magnum performance, but its pretty good for 22lr.

My Ruger MkIII likes the 40 gr standard velocity best for target work. It is the most accurate.

I don't use it as a HD or PD gun only target so these work fine.

In the past when I felt carrying something else (better) might be a problem, I carried a Beretta M-21A in .22LR. I even packed it in a sandwitch bag and took it swiming and snorkling. Afterwards I would take it home ans shoot it. I found that if I took the time to rip the top of the bag off,even while gripping the grip, that it functiond as well as any other time and that MOST of the time I could get of a single shot through the bag.

I carried this on the theory that ANY gun is better than NO gun. I did this on the basis of a Gerry Kleck study of Justice department numbers that showed having a gun meant I and mine were less likely to be injured in an assault, for whatever reason than if I depended on a Knife or anything else to include total coperation with the bad folks or begging.

I did not and do not believe there is enough difference at pistol velocities to make squat difference about the use of a Hollow Point or lighter bullet.

I used my little chrono to test my otherwise favorite .22LR load and the one I had found to be the most reliable feeder and firer in the Beretta, the Winchester Super X 40 grain solid. I got velocities that day at that temperature at that elevation of between 710 and 740 fps. I also found it would reliably penitrate a dry treated 1X4 ( I think that is 7/8 inth thick actually) at five yards and sometimes two but not reliably on the second.

I believe the ammo company charts list the round at something over 1200fps but out of that short barrel as you can see it was considerably less.

In my gun and on that day I found that Stingers were not apreciably faster, still less than 800fps on every round though even with hearing protection thay were noticably louder if you think that a plus. Hmm 40 grain at atleast 710 or 32 grain at not more than 790. Don't see enough difference to worry about.

Not advertising for Winchester, but when you can find it the 40 grain solid Super X with the copper wash generally gives the best accuracy and functioning results in all my rifles and pistols for field use. In some rifles I have found it more accurate out to 100 yards than "match ammo". Never had a failure to feed in a 22 autoloder that fetured the cut across hollow point one sometimes finds on things like the Ruger Mark Whatever pistol or some semi auto rifles. Also feeds best from one clip loading bolt action and as it happens that is the rifle it is most accurate in, an Anshutz 1441/42/43 bought in Neu Ulm across the river from its home three decades ago.

While I am not as happy with a .22LR mini pistol as I would be with the Mark IV Series 70 .45ACP I play steel games with, a little .22LR beats wishing I had a gun when I needed one.

I no longer carry the Beretta, mainly because I was not happy with that particular gun's reliability, occasional failures to fire and very occasional failures to fire on a second strike, with any ammunition. And because I found the KelTec P32 to be close enough in size and with better ammo in that size package.

-Bob Hollingsworth

On the side track, I weigh over 250#, fought 29 times where knock out were allowed in a variety of styles including mma (almost anything goes). I carry a glock 21 .45 at work. I have the kel tec 9mm and .380. If I can't carry any of those, the back up to the back ups, is a naa .22. I'd take the 5 rounds in the .22 over a knife or my fighting skill anyday.

ArchAngelCD,

What I am about to suggest applies to any firearm, no matter if handgun, shotgun or rifle. Makes no difference what caliber or guage.

Just my opinion mind you-

1.Firearm MUST feed, extract ammunition - Period.
Magazines are included as they are a integral part of Semi-Auto firearms.

Always check to make sure ammunition feeds, extracts and includes magazines.

2. Shoots to Point of Aim / Point of Impact [POA/POI]
Some guns are "set up" to shoot certain loadings to shoot POA/POI .

3. Shot placement is the key.

If the gun will not feed or extract, it sure won't go POA/POI
If the gun gets a round in the chamber and shoots into the next county when sights are on target, it is not going to "Place The Shot".

I do not care what everyone "says" about a loading, what any magazine wrote, or any Internet Forum says.
One has to test for themselves.

Me, to answer your question.
Beretta 21 A, Ruger MKI, MKII, Browning Buckmarks, Jframe 22 revolvers, H&R999, I carried Win X22LR which is a 40 gr LRN HV load. Why? That load across the board ran in any .22 semi-auto action I shot it in. Accuracy was sometimes the best, if not across the board "acceptable".
This load was easy to get and I bought it by the cases.

T22, and Dynapoint are Standard Pressure loads - which also fed , extracted and shot POA/ POI for me.

Not only for me, also everybody else with who knows what kind of gun and action. Five cases of WinX22LR does not last long - trust me.

Win became harder to get here for me. CCI did, I like the Mini Mag and Standard loads, these always worked in any gun I run them in , and those at the range.

Fed Bulk Pack, that .36 gr load, runs in everything.
Fed American Eagle does the same.

Personally, I like a Standard load of 40 grain LRN. Truth is, always been easier to find High Velocity loads such as the X22LR.

I have not, and do not suggest Stingers and other Hyper Velocity .22 loadings to folks, sure don't for more serious uses.

ArchAngelCD,
My suggestion is to get a variety and see what your gun feeds, extracts and if a magazine fed gun , works with best. See what YOUR eyes, stance, grip and shoot POA/ POI.
Truth is, you and I are most likely going to differ in stance, grip and all, not to mention our eyes are different.
I would recommend a standard or high velocity loading only.

Rest of you folks, I know there are other calibers besides .22 rim-fire.
It is none of my business as to why ArchAngelCD, is asking or wanting to know.

I will share I stopped a serious immediate threat before I was a teenager with a .22 caliber rim fire revolver.

I will share I know of persons with serious physical limits that cannot shoot any other fire arm than a .22 rim-fire.
These folks used to could shoot other firearms, in center-fire loadings and cannot.

I will share I have snuck a Beretta Minx, .22 short, to a UC LEO officer in a serious, serious setting. Done the same thing with Beretta Jetfire which shoots a 25ACP loading.

If I had my druthers I'd tote a 12 or 20 shotgun loaded with slugs, Brennke's preferred 24/7 - I cannot.

I also know there are members from all over the world that are members of THR and sometimes there are restrictions on what guns and what ammo they can use, or limited selections.

Mindset is the key and repetition of training the brain, it is less about the hardware and more about the software.




The faster most folks realize that all guns suck, the happier they'll be.
-Tamara

This thread just convinced me to chrono some 22LR stuff out of my revolver... when it warms up.

Quote: "If you are going to shoot a .22LR round out of a 2.4" barrel handgun which .22LR round would be more effective as a man stopper? "

NONE and you won't get those velocities out of a 2.4" pistol barrel!!! You asked us to NOT suggest other options, yet the options you listed are NOT SUITABLE FOR SELF DEFENSE IN MY PERSONAL OPINION. If you choose to trust your life to such inadequate caliber/pistol that is your business but I will NOT contribute to that decision. GOOD LUCK!!!

Good shooting and be safe.
LB

Didn't the Mossad use .22lr? It seemed to work fine for them.