Those of you who've hunted with a handgun. Do you still believe in stopping power?

[Master of Arms]

Chicago cop

Bullet proof vest
It takes around 700 pounds per square inch to knock an average adult male down.
A hornady 12 SST slug has 2196 ft/pds of energy at 50 yards

A 180 grain.40 s&w has about 960 ft/pds of energy @ 50

A 175 grain 45 has about 980 ft/pds of energy @ 50

A 125 grain SP .357 mag has about 1300 ft/pds of energy @ 50

A 250 grain 44 mag has about 1400 ft/pds of energy @ 50

A 180 grain SP .300 mag has 3200 ft/pds @ 100 yards

A 400 grain 45-70 has about 1280 ft/pds @ 100

A 500 grain 458 lott has about 4537 ft/pds @ 1oo.


Though a well placed shot would end the attackers advance instantly, some of the smaller and more average rounds carry more than enough energy and the heavier calibers would no doubt handle the job with poor shot placement as they have the potential to remove entire limbs.

 

[Plink]

I haven't shot all that many deer with a handgun and it was always with a .44 mag when I did. However, I have spent the better part of 15 years using hundreds of hogs in East Texas as living ballistic testing medium for defense caliber handguns ranging from the .380 to .45 ACP.

The one thing I learned is something we all know anyway if we have paid attention to the various shooting reports throughout the decades. That is that there's only 2 really important things: shot placement and penetration. No matter how much "energy" the hogs (or perps...read the reports yourself) have taken. If the bullet didn't make it into anything immediately vital, whether through poor shot placement or poor cartridge/load choice, the target didn't go down immediately. It didn't matter if they absorbed 300 ft lbs., or 3000.

This was especially evident in hogs shot with low powered rounds or higher powered rounds using light for their caliber bullets. I wasn't able to tell the difference between a .38 Super 147 grain hollowpoint or a .45 ACP 230 grainer HP, if the shots went into the vitals.

 

[Gator]

Quote: Chicago cop

Bullet proof vest

No vest, he was undercover at the time. He has some impressive scars as a reminder of the encounter.

 

[Geno]

Two, single-shot kills from a Thompson/Center Encore pistol. The first hunt with a .444 Marlin. The second hunt was with a .45-70 Gov't. Both calibers dropped Russian boars faster and harder than 2 shots from my Sauer 202 Safari .375 H&H Mag with 300 grain Noslers.

 

[Master of Arms]

No vest,

4 shots in the chest with a 44 mag without wearing a vest????? and he di what???? Where is this information posted? Not callin you out, just like to see it.

This was especially evident in hogs

I`d say that a 300 pound wild boar would be "tougher" than a human. I thought that the reference of humans is what we were talking about. But since we`re talkin hogs. I`ve got a video on hog hunting and out of the 8 kills on the video, 7 were dropped like a rock and he was using a bow. A .300 mag, 300 ultra mag, 458, etc would disassemble a hog into quarters.

 

[freakshow10mm]

It takes around 700 pounds per square inch to knock an average adult male down.
A hornady 12 SST slug has 2196 ft/pds of energy at 50 yards

A 180 grain.40 s&w has about 960 ft/pds of energy @ 50

A 175 grain 45 has about 980 ft/pds of energy @ 50

A 125 grain SP .357 mag has about 1300 ft/pds of energy @ 50

A 250 grain 44 mag has about 1400 ft/pds of energy @ 50

A 180 grain SP .300 mag has 3200 ft/pds @ 100 yards

A 400 grain 45-70 has about 1280 ft/pds @ 100

A 500 grain 458 lott has about 4537 ft/pds @ 1oo.

No cartridge is capable of physically moving a body.

 

[HB]

Animals ≠ people

PCP and/or Crank + Raccoon= Bad Combo

Here are my limited observations.

Deer #1:

Deer running towards a double-stand in which my uncle and I are seated. The deer had just been shot at by a buddy a hundred or so yards away, but suddenly stops at 25 yards and just stares down the trail. I took a shot, hitting him in his lungs, my uncle shoots about a 1/2 second latter, hitting the deer in the shoulders. The deer "hunched up" and ran directly toward our stand when I fired a shot straight down hitting the deer in the hoof :banghead:. The deer crashed into the deerstand where he bled out. Needless to say, there was way to much shooting, but it was his first deer in 20 years and my first deer ever so neither one of us wanted him to make it very far. So it took 3 shots to stop this deer, because none of them hit CNS.

Deer #2:

Basically just saw a deer at 30 yards, took a neck shot, and he just dropped. End of story, one 30-30 bullet to the neck.

From my experinces, I'd say stopping power is BS. It's shot placement. But It can depend on the situation. On the first deer, he was going full speed, and presumably his veins were surging with adrenilin. The second deer was just meandering through. I would think that if somebody came into your house guns blazing, it is possible that it would take more shots to put him down.

On the other hand, I think if you shot a guy robbing a 7-11 and he didn't know you were there, even if you hit him in the arm, he might go down.

Most of the time, the guy jacking the 7-11 has NO intention of shooting anybody, but the guy breaking into your house when he knows you are home probably wants to KILL you.

Physiology+Situation +Placment is more important than Power.

HB

 

[goon]

Animals ≠ people

Not entirely the same but they're pretty damn close in many cases.
If you know where the lungs are in a cat I bet you could find them in a person too. Same for the spleen, liver, intestines, etc.
In some cases, I'd say animals are tougher but humans also survive some incredible injuries and make full recoveries.

When you shoot that hog with a "BOW" and land that perfect neck shot and the hog never untracks himself, Stopping power.

When you shot that bear and the shot knocked him on his side, stopping power.

Placement works along side of stopping power but you can have one without the other. Especially since we`re talkin about humans here, are you kidding??? One shot with a .444, 45-70, .44 magnum, 30-06, .300 win mag etc.etc.etc. is going to STOP whoever gets hit with any of those calibers and many more, adrenalin or no adrenalin.

What you're talking about isn't what's commonly referred to as "stopping power".
What you're referring to is successful shot placement with a projectile of adequate power.
If you put a round through the base of the skull on a deer it's going to stop right there. You stop the signals traveling down the spinal cord and you stop the action from happening.
If you put that same round through the Aorta, the heart won't be able to circulate blood to the body tissues and brain. EVENTUALLY, the cells won't be able to function and the animal will collapse and die.
But when you shoot that hog with your bow or put a bullet into that bear, you're screwing up the animal's body and causing it to no longer be able to sustain itself. Naturally, the animal will fall down and die. But it doesn't really have anything to do with energy being transferred into something.
The swinging sandbag that rcmodel mentions is a good example and he's right - a solid impact from most rounds won't even move a 50 pound sandbag. If it did, a sandbag wouldn't be of much use for cover.
I used to shoot steel silouhette targets and they taught me the same thing. A 40 pound steel target taking a direct hit from a SP .308 hunting round does not do several backflips and come to rest fifty feet back in the weeds. It just falls over.
There are also some demonstrations around of a guy taking double taps from a FAL in the chest to demonstrate how effective a bulletproof vest is. IIRC, he stands on one foot while getting hit with .308 rounds and he doesn't fall over.
Last is my own experience.
I have seen deer hit through the chest cavity with full power hunting rounds take off running. I have seen them run hundreds of yards bleeding from both sides, sucking chest wounds all around. I've seen one run almost a hundred yards after taking a .35 Remington to the heart. When it was cleaned up it didn't have a heart left. I saw one that my dad shot at the base of the skull fall down right there, then stand back up for a few seconds before falling over again.
Sure, they all did die eventually and one of them was dead without even knowing it.
But I know that a .300 Savage, .30'06, or .35 Remington can't guarantee immediate results on impact. They just can't.

Best solution if you want stopping power - get as close as your sneaky little legs can get you and shoot it in the head.
Then hope it doesn't pull a Phineas Gage on you.

 

[Ridgerunner665]

No cartridge is capable of physically moving a body.

I think what he was trying to say was this...remember, he mentioned "VEST".

If they don't penetrate they could knock a man down...think about it this way...a 405 grain bullet from a 45-70 into a vest, that will push you back a ways with its momentum alone.

 

[Master of Arms]

No cartridge is capable of physically moving a body

WWwhhhaaattt???? lolololol
Wanna bet?
Not gonna argue this one further.

 

[Feanaro]

a 405 grain bullet from a 45-70 into a vest, that will push you back a ways with its momentum alone.

If this were so, you'd be sitting on your fanny everytime you touched one off or you'd at least have a very sore shoulder. Momentum has to be conserved, so whatever momentum the bullet has, the gun must also have.

 

[freakshow10mm]

WWwhhhaaattt???? lolololol
Wanna bet?
Not gonna argue this one further.

Yes. I've shot test medium before many times. I've tested sand filled bags hung in the air and my uncle and I shot them with medium and big bore rifles such as the 35 Whelen, 358 Norma Mag, 375 H&H Mag, 416 Remington and Rigby. The sand bag never moved.

If a cartridge moved a body, the shooter would also be moved the same distance.

A cartridge will not physically move a game animal back or make it flip, etc. I've heard stories, and continue to hear stories, of hunters shooting deer and pushing them back 10 feet. BS. That's called reaction to the shot.

I worked for the WI DNR for a spell during the initial phases of the CWD cull. I did it for perhaps 4 months and killed over a hundred deer with various cartridges ranging from 223 to the 350 Rem Mag to the 375 Holland. No deer ever moved back, even when struck with the Holland's 4000+fpe at close range.

 

[The Bushmaster]

Doc2005...And all those that are trying to inject rifles into this string...I believe we are discussing handguns that expell pistol or revolver ammunition. Not cut down rifles that expell rifle ammunition...Try to stay on topic...Please...?

 

[HB]

Agreed, even MythBusters (who are not the most though "scientists") showed this. They shot a dead pig with a vest from .38's to full-auto Thompsons and 12 gauge slugs. The pig just hung there. The rig they used was about as good as it gets to test it.

HB

 

[freakshow10mm]

And all those that are trying to inject rifles into this string...I believe we are discussing handguns that expell pistol or revolver ammunition. Not cut down rifles that expell rifle ammunition...Try to stay on topic...Please...?

The point I'm making is that people think that handguns cartridges can physically move a body, but rifle cartridges with a lot more KE than any handgun cartridge cannot move a body, then that argument is moot.

 

[HGUNHNTR]

It all boils down to doing enough damage to the animals vital organs to cause it to die quickly. Any round capable of penetrating to the vitals, and carries at least a moderate amount of mass, lets say 150 grains or better, will have a great chance of stopping the animal quickly. In my experiences with non dangerous game animals this applies to every situation I have been in. If I hit the animal in an area that will allow the bullet to do its thing, the animal dies quickly. "Knockdown Power" is a marketing term, not a scientific one.

 

[vanilla_gorilla]

Originally posted by Master of Arms:

WWwhhhaaattt???? lolololol
Wanna bet?
Not gonna argue this one further.

This man disagrees with you and says you don't know what you're talking about. Then he proves it.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=310_1212367354

 

[R.W.Dale]

It takes around 700 pounds per square inch to knock an average adult male down.

HA HA HA LOL! Whatever dude! any gun powerful enough to knock the target down will knock the shooter down as well.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=88f_1176635043

we've all seen this video before and while the medic!did hit the ground he also got right back up after taking a 7.62x54R light ball to the trauma plate. That's well over 2000 ft lbs of energy! Now do you really think a paltry .40 with only 400 ft lbs of energy will bowl a man over

A 180 grain.40 s&w has about 960 ft/pds of energy @ 50 nope try only
400 at the MUZZLE

A 175 grain 45 has about 980 ft/pds of energy @ 50



who makes 175 grn .45??????

A 125 grain SP .357 mag has about 1300 ft/pds of energy @ 50

again only 625 at the muzzle


A 250 grain 44 mag has about 1400 ft/pds of energy @ 50

only 850 here

A 180 grain SP .300 mag has 3200 ft/pds @ 100 yards

try 2274


A 400 grain 45-70 has about 1280 ft/pds @ 100

1you actually got close on this one the real number for a rem 405g sp at 100 is 168

A 500 grain 458 lott has about 4537 ft/pds @ 1oo.

Of course this is assuming that PDS isn't some new form of measurement and you ment to use LBS

Where does a person buy this magic ammo that actually accelerates after leaving the muzzle

 

[goon]

Doc2005...And all those that are trying to inject rifles into this string...I believe we are discussing handguns that expell pistol or revolver ammunition. Not cut down rifles that expell rifle ammunition...Try to stay on topic...Please...?

It's a natural progression to bring rifles into the equation when we start talking about "stopping power".
The OP asked if those who had hunted with handguns believed in stopping power. Many of us who have hunted only with full power centerfire rifles have commented that even having killed animals with our .308's and '06's that are far more powerful than most handguns ever thought about being, we still don't believe in it.
The rationale being that if an '06 won't kill an animal on the spot every single time, what chance does a "measly" .44 Magnum have of doing it?

Sorry for helping get the thread sort of off topic, but it is relevant.
And after all, this is the internet.
These things happen.

 

[45crittergitter]

Ask the deer whose nearly-whole lung was left hanging on a bush on the other side.... from one handgun shot.

 

[Master of Arms]

AMMUNITION BALLISTICS FOR: .357 Magnum

BULLET BARREL
LENGTH VELOCITY (fps) ENERGY 30 yd.
MIDRANGE
CARTRIDGE WT. TYPE MFG (INCHES) MUZZ. 50 YDS. MUZZ. 50 YDS. TRAIL
.357 Magnum 80 Safety (CB) 4.0 1800 1418 575 357 0.2
100 PB (CB) N/A 1600 1295 568 373 0.2
109 No. 9 Shot (C) V4 1000 - - - -
110 JHP (CB) N/A 1500 1233 550 372 0.5
110 JHP (S) V4 1295 1094 410 292 0.8
125 JHP (BH) V8 1500 1314 624 479 0.5
125 JHP (R) V4 1220 1095 413 333 0.8
125 JHP (S) V4 1450 1240 583 376 0.6
125 JSP (H) V8 1500 1311 624 477 0.6
125 JSP (R) V4 1450 1240 584 427 0.2
125 WC-JFP (W) V4 1370 1183 521 389 0.7
130 JHP (F) V4 1300 1130 490 370 0.7
140 JHP (H) V8 1400 1249 609 485 0.6
140 JHP (CB) N/A 1325 1182 546 434 0.6
142 FMJ (Fi) V6 1420 1247 650 491 0.6
145 JHP (W) V4 1290 1155 535 428 0.8
148 JHP (Fi) V6 1500 1328 720 580 0.8
150 JHP (P) N/A 1234 1093 507 398 0.8
150 JHP (P) N/A 1205 1069 484 381 0.8
158 JHP (F) V4 1240 1100 535 430 0.8
158 JHP (S) V4 1250 1134 548 451 0.8
158 JHP (S) V4 1235 1104 535 428 0.8
158 JHP (N) N/A 1214 1110 515 431 0.8
158 FMJ (N) N/A 1214 1105 515 427 0.8
158 FMJ (SB) 7.5 1394 1246 682 545 0.6
158 JHP (L) 8.25 1542 1359 831 646 0.2
158 JSP (SB) 7.5 1394 1246 682 545 0.6
158 JSP (H) V8 1250 1147 548 461 0.8
158 JSP (S) V4 1240 1100 535 430 0.8
158 JSP (S) V4 1235 1104 535 428 0.8
158 JSP (P) N/A 1120 1078 505 408 0.8
158 FMJ-FN (MT) V4 1235 1118 535 438 0.8
158 JHP (C) V4 1150 1104 464 428 0.8
158 LSW (S) V4 1235 1104 535 428 0.8
158 LSW (BH) V8 1050 971 387 331 1.0
165 JHP (R) V4 1290 1189 610 518 0.7
180 JHP (W) V4 1180 1088 557 473 0.8
180 JHP (R) V4 1145 1053 524 443 0.9
180 JHP (F) V4 1090 980 475 385 1.0
180 JHP (F) V4 1250 1160 675 535 0.8
200 L (CB) N/A 1200 1106 640 544 0.8

Hey Kroch this is just one page of a ballistic chart from Guns and Ammo which covers the 357 magnum. I posted the EXACT information from this website. The numbers that you have up there are really way off. Try to check and see if you misread or either contact Guns and Ammo and let them know that they are ignorant of ballistics. Reloading data will be a little different. I`ll not waist anymore space here but they match the reloading chart in my manual and the other ballistic chart that I use. dude

 

[mtngunr]

The original post began "Those of you who have hunted with a handgun..."

Not, "those of you who can quote G&A ballistic data,", and G&A gets their data from data suppliers....

Or even, "those of you who have shot perps, deer, etc and flipped them off their feet," whether or not they were wearing a vest and you were using a 375 H&H....

 

[Z71]

I've done quite a bit of small game hunting with a variety of handguns. Have done some bigger game hunting too , but not enough to really quantify anything.

Yes. It ain't like the movies! and the .45acp is not a .30-06!

Hunting with a handgun will destroy your belief in handgun "stopping power". At least until you get into the magnum class cartridges.

From small game shooting with revolvers and auto's, i would rate the.22lr, .32 auto, .38 Special, .380, 9mm, and .45acp(sorry!) about the same. Hollowpoints are severely over-rated in these calibers. Maybe the animals were too small to absorb the bullet energy, maybe not.

Next step up would be the .357 and .44 magnums, much better if somewhat over potent sometimes. Definately far more effective.

My opinion, don't get mad, just go shoot some rabbits with a .45 acp and see what you think!

 

[biggiesmalls]

i've dropped a decent sized hog with a .357 in my grandpa's blackhawk. of course he wasn't charging directly at me so i can't vouch 100% for stopping power, but i voted that i trust

 

[R.W.Dale]

Hey Kroch this is just one page of a ballistic chart from Guns and Ammo which covers the 357 magnum. I posted the EXACT information from this website. The numbers that you have up there are really way off. Try to check and see if you misread or either contact Guns and Ammo and let them know that they are ignorant of ballistics. Reloading data will be a little different. I`ll not waist anymore space here but they match the reloading chart in my manual and the other ballistic chart that I use. dude

It took me awhile to notice but Guns And Ammo has the correct numbers

The problem is YOU quoted the VELOCITY figure as ft lbs of energy they aren't the same.

These figures are from Hornady the bold numbers are ft lbs of energy

180grn 40S&W TAP at muzzle 50 then 100yds
950/361 903/326 862/297

357 Mag., 125 gr. JHP/XTP

1500/624 1314/479 1166/377

44 Rem. Mag., 240 gr. JHP/XTP

1350/971 1231/807 1134/685