cbsbyte
Member
If you value your job then you won't carry at work.
Not allowed to carry at new job...
- Thread starter Dgreno
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The Amigo
Member
Found this
Restrictions cannot contravene the Constitution
The Star-Telegram ^ | Mar. 12, 2007 | MARION P. HAMMER
Posted on 03/13/2007 11:26:20 PM PDT by neverdem
The U.S. Constitution and most state constitutions guarantee the right to keep and bear arms. Transporting a firearm in your vehicle for protection while traveling to and from work, grocery shopping, to the doctor's office, to a shopping center or anywhere else people commonly travel is central to that right.
In Plona v. United Parcel Service, 2007 (U.S. District Court, N.D. Ohio), UPS fired an employee for having a firearm stored in his vehicle in a public-access parking lot used by UPS employees and customers. The court found that "the right to keep and bear arms" is enough to form the basis of a wrongful termination. Further, U.S. District Judge Ann Aldrich found that "allowing an employer to terminate an employee for exercising a clearly established constitutional right jeopardizes that right, even if no state action is involved."
Businesses are prohibited from discriminating because of race, age, sex, religion, nationality, etc. And clearly they are also prohibited from discriminating against those who exercise their right to keep and bear arms for personal protection and other lawful purposes like hunting and target shooting.
Individual constitutional and legal rights do not end when we drive onto a business parking lot. Simply put, business property rights do not trump the Constitution or the law.
State legislatures have a duty to protect the constitutional rights of individuals from abuses. They must act as a shield to protect constitutional rights of the people; they also must act as the point of a sword to punish those who violate our inalienable rights. That is at the heart of this debate.
Businesses cannot substitute their own political philosophies for constitutional rights. And nowhere in the Constitution are businesses given any authority to prohibit rights in their parking lots. Businesses have no more right to ban firearms in private vehicles than they do to ban books. Businesses may impose only restrictions that do not rise to the level of contravening protected rights.
Nor can employers require you to waive your protected rights. They cannot, as a condition of employment, require you to give up your right to vote; neither can they require you to give up your right of self-protection or your right to keep and bear arms.
On the common-sense side, think about a mom who doesn't get off work until midnight. She may drive 30 or 40 miles over dark, desolate roads to get home to her family. She may stop at a convenience store and pick up bread for school lunches the next day.
Her employer has no right to tell her that she'll be fired if she exercises her right to have a firearm in her vehicle for protection.
Think about women who work late hours as cashiers at supermarkets. And what about employees of all-night pharmacies, or nurses or lab technicians who work late shifts and drive to and from work through dangerous areas late at night?
As one female legislator asked, what about lawmakers who travel their districts at night for speaking engagements? Are they not supposed to park anywhere or stop for a cup of coffee or a soda or a bite to eat because they carry a gun in the car for protection?
A woman who is being stalked or who has obtained a domestic violence injunction against an abuser needs protection. Police often advise these women to buy a gun for protection because police can't be there to protect them. An employer violates her rights if the employer attempts to force her to waive her rights and chose between her life and her job.
The keeping of firearms in a vehicle is a preeminent right that is well-grounded in law and public policy. Legislatures must stop the abuse of our most basic and fundamental Second Amendment rights on the part of corporate giants.
I value my life more than my job anyways.
Restrictions cannot contravene the Constitution
The Star-Telegram ^ | Mar. 12, 2007 | MARION P. HAMMER
Posted on 03/13/2007 11:26:20 PM PDT by neverdem
The U.S. Constitution and most state constitutions guarantee the right to keep and bear arms. Transporting a firearm in your vehicle for protection while traveling to and from work, grocery shopping, to the doctor's office, to a shopping center or anywhere else people commonly travel is central to that right.
In Plona v. United Parcel Service, 2007 (U.S. District Court, N.D. Ohio), UPS fired an employee for having a firearm stored in his vehicle in a public-access parking lot used by UPS employees and customers. The court found that "the right to keep and bear arms" is enough to form the basis of a wrongful termination. Further, U.S. District Judge Ann Aldrich found that "allowing an employer to terminate an employee for exercising a clearly established constitutional right jeopardizes that right, even if no state action is involved."
Businesses are prohibited from discriminating because of race, age, sex, religion, nationality, etc. And clearly they are also prohibited from discriminating against those who exercise their right to keep and bear arms for personal protection and other lawful purposes like hunting and target shooting.
Individual constitutional and legal rights do not end when we drive onto a business parking lot. Simply put, business property rights do not trump the Constitution or the law.
State legislatures have a duty to protect the constitutional rights of individuals from abuses. They must act as a shield to protect constitutional rights of the people; they also must act as the point of a sword to punish those who violate our inalienable rights. That is at the heart of this debate.
Businesses cannot substitute their own political philosophies for constitutional rights. And nowhere in the Constitution are businesses given any authority to prohibit rights in their parking lots. Businesses have no more right to ban firearms in private vehicles than they do to ban books. Businesses may impose only restrictions that do not rise to the level of contravening protected rights.
Nor can employers require you to waive your protected rights. They cannot, as a condition of employment, require you to give up your right to vote; neither can they require you to give up your right of self-protection or your right to keep and bear arms.
On the common-sense side, think about a mom who doesn't get off work until midnight. She may drive 30 or 40 miles over dark, desolate roads to get home to her family. She may stop at a convenience store and pick up bread for school lunches the next day.
Her employer has no right to tell her that she'll be fired if she exercises her right to have a firearm in her vehicle for protection.
Think about women who work late hours as cashiers at supermarkets. And what about employees of all-night pharmacies, or nurses or lab technicians who work late shifts and drive to and from work through dangerous areas late at night?
As one female legislator asked, what about lawmakers who travel their districts at night for speaking engagements? Are they not supposed to park anywhere or stop for a cup of coffee or a soda or a bite to eat because they carry a gun in the car for protection?
A woman who is being stalked or who has obtained a domestic violence injunction against an abuser needs protection. Police often advise these women to buy a gun for protection because police can't be there to protect them. An employer violates her rights if the employer attempts to force her to waive her rights and chose between her life and her job.
The keeping of firearms in a vehicle is a preeminent right that is well-grounded in law and public policy. Legislatures must stop the abuse of our most basic and fundamental Second Amendment rights on the part of corporate giants.
I value my life more than my job anyways.
Just follow the rules and leave the gun in your car like a good employee...and keep a ball bat in the corner of your office and when the boss asks if you play tell them yea, but that one is for special occasions. I'm not saying that going after a gunman with a bat is a good idea, but if there is no other way out, it beats waiting around to be shot.
RH
RH
Please think about what you are asking a bunch of strangers on an internet forum. You are asking if *you* should or should not disobey your employers stated policy, which, could lead to your firing and negative job record.
It's easy for us to say what you should do, because, we don't have to suffer the consequences if you take our advice.
Those of us who might have faced a similar situation have to make that decision based on all kinds of specific factors to our situation that may or may not apply to you. For example, how old are you? Is this job an important career step for you, or a casual extra-money thing? See what I mean? Only you can assess all these pros and cons.
Good luck.
K
It's easy for us to say what you should do, because, we don't have to suffer the consequences if you take our advice.
Those of us who might have faced a similar situation have to make that decision based on all kinds of specific factors to our situation that may or may not apply to you. For example, how old are you? Is this job an important career step for you, or a casual extra-money thing? See what I mean? Only you can assess all these pros and cons.
Good luck.
K
Someone far more articulate, erudite and level-headed than I might consider drafting a form letter explaining the real benefits of such a policy, as well as the possible consequences.
Said letter would enumerate the benefits:
1) Hoplophobes would feel safer
2)
Said letter would also explain potential drawbacks:
1) Nutcase with a gun ignores policy - everybody gets shot
2) People are denied their 2nd A. rights and litigation becomes a possibility
3) Relationships among working adults are strained, as some dictate overly
paternal regulation to others. A distrustful work atmosphere ensues.
4)
Said letter might also make the point that NO individual intent on doing harm to others in the workplace will EVER be stopped by a "policy" against carrying a firearm in the first place.
If there were such a letter, it could be posted as a sticky in L & P for anyone to use. If it were well written and sensitive it could be anonymously put in the mailboxes of management at companies with such policies. Better yet, it could be e-mailed by other members (at the behest of an employee) so that anonymity might be maintained.
Just a thought
Said letter would enumerate the benefits:
1) Hoplophobes would feel safer
2)
Said letter would also explain potential drawbacks:
1) Nutcase with a gun ignores policy - everybody gets shot
2) People are denied their 2nd A. rights and litigation becomes a possibility
3) Relationships among working adults are strained, as some dictate overly
paternal regulation to others. A distrustful work atmosphere ensues.
4)
Said letter might also make the point that NO individual intent on doing harm to others in the workplace will EVER be stopped by a "policy" against carrying a firearm in the first place.
If there were such a letter, it could be posted as a sticky in L & P for anyone to use. If it were well written and sensitive it could be anonymously put in the mailboxes of management at companies with such policies. Better yet, it could be e-mailed by other members (at the behest of an employee) so that anonymity might be maintained.
Just a thought
skeeter1
Member
Get yourself a Leatherman tool. I carried one to work for 10 years (in a hospital, no firearms allowed, period). Everyone seemed to like that I had my little "tool kit" when they needed help, and I never mentioned that it had a 3" knife blade in it as well.
JerryM
Member
Obey the rules, or get another job. All the talk about the risk of getting killed is just mostly talk.
The odds of you having to use your gun on the job, assuming you are not a LEO, are extremely small. You have a much better chance of being found out, and then fired or whatever than being shot on the job. I suspect the odds of gettin shot on the job are one in several million.
Sure when it happens it makes all the TV stations, but how many people went to work and had no problems? Millions.
Yes, I carry where legal, but strangely enough I have never been attacked in many years of going where I wanted to go. There 'aint a booger in every office building.
Regards,
Jerry
The odds of you having to use your gun on the job, assuming you are not a LEO, are extremely small. You have a much better chance of being found out, and then fired or whatever than being shot on the job. I suspect the odds of gettin shot on the job are one in several million.
Sure when it happens it makes all the TV stations, but how many people went to work and had no problems? Millions.
Yes, I carry where legal, but strangely enough I have never been attacked in many years of going where I wanted to go. There 'aint a booger in every office building.
Regards,
Jerry
Aguila Blanca
Member
That's a personal decision. How badly do you want/need the job, and what value do you put on your own personal integrity?Dgreno said:
I was faced with that conundrum a couple of years ago. I had accepted a new job, working the closing shift at a retail establishment on the fringe of a rather, shall we say, "seedy" part of town. I started work on Monday. On Tuesday they gave me the personnel policy, told me to take it home and read it, and to bring back a signed copy on Wednesday. I read it. It said "No firearms." On Wednesday I brought back two UNsigned copies of the policy and asked the manager if she really expected me to close the store at 11:00 p.m. (an hour after all other businesses in the area closed) and walk across an unsecured and poorly-lit parking lot to my car without any means of protection. She said "That's the company's policy."
On Thursday morning I handed her my written resignation, stating the reason, and Friday was my last day.
YMMV.
JerryM
Member
Hi bensdad,
"Yeah, but what if this guy works at the post office?"
I might have to revise my thinking about boogers in every office, or at least Post Office.
Regards,
Jerry
"Yeah, but what if this guy works at the post office?"
I might have to revise my thinking about boogers in every office, or at least Post Office.
Regards,
Jerry
yeah.. what is the job?
Really I mean what do you do and is it really necessary to be packing heat.
If you signed an agreement to the job than on that you have no right and could lose the job.
You should probably check handbook or hr on WEAPON to see what the consider one I have my 2 3/4 inch blade on me and have for about 2 months at a job that does not want weapons there.
It's all a question of semantics or nomenclature really, some bosses will make exceptions as well.
I don't know your area or job but I don't see legal ramifications especially if you normally carry.
Really I mean what do you do and is it really necessary to be packing heat.
If you signed an agreement to the job than on that you have no right and could lose the job.
You should probably check handbook or hr on WEAPON to see what the consider one I have my 2 3/4 inch blade on me and have for about 2 months at a job that does not want weapons there.
It's all a question of semantics or nomenclature really, some bosses will make exceptions as well.
I don't know your area or job but I don't see legal ramifications especially if you normally carry.
Dgreno
Member
This is getting interesting...
Thank you all for your advice. My job is retail that will be working mostly closing shifts. At the end of the shift I have to walk through a dark parking lot to the BACK, where I am required to park. I think my ccw's will stay in my vehicle and my "personal utility tool" (knife) will stay in my pocket. If anything sketchy happens, I guess I will have to find a place to secure myself (i.e., hide). :banghead: As for asking my HRM about the issue, I quickly told him that I was only asking to avoid doing anything wrong as far as carrying anything classified as a weapon. He seemed ok after that explanation so I hope the mental note got smaller.
BTW, I am very interested in what all of you think, so please keep this thread alive!!
Dave
Thank you all for your advice. My job is retail that will be working mostly closing shifts. At the end of the shift I have to walk through a dark parking lot to the BACK, where I am required to park. I think my ccw's will stay in my vehicle and my "personal utility tool" (knife) will stay in my pocket. If anything sketchy happens, I guess I will have to find a place to secure myself (i.e., hide). :banghead: As for asking my HRM about the issue, I quickly told him that I was only asking to avoid doing anything wrong as far as carrying anything classified as a weapon. He seemed ok after that explanation so I hope the mental note got smaller.
BTW, I am very interested in what all of you think, so please keep this thread alive!!
Dave
ArchAngelCD
Member.
Dgreno,
I was about to tell you to obey the company and keep your gun in the car until you said, "At the end of the shift I have to walk through a dark parking lot to the BACK, where I am required to park." That statement changes everything IMO.
May I suggest you buy either a Kel-Tec P-32 or a P-3AT and carry it around your neck on a Lanyard. http://www.kel-tec.com/p32accessories.html I have a P-32 (in .32 Auto) and I can tell you it's very small and light too. You might need it to get to your car some night where you will have access to something larger, if needed. (A 12 gauge shotgun might be nice in a very dark parking lot) http://www.kel-tec.com/p32.html
That is my suggestion, until you can find another job that is....
I was about to tell you to obey the company and keep your gun in the car until you said, "At the end of the shift I have to walk through a dark parking lot to the BACK, where I am required to park." That statement changes everything IMO.
May I suggest you buy either a Kel-Tec P-32 or a P-3AT and carry it around your neck on a Lanyard. http://www.kel-tec.com/p32accessories.html I have a P-32 (in .32 Auto) and I can tell you it's very small and light too. You might need it to get to your car some night where you will have access to something larger, if needed. (A 12 gauge shotgun might be nice in a very dark parking lot) http://www.kel-tec.com/p32.html
That is my suggestion, until you can find another job that is....
ArfinGreebly
Moderator Emeritus
Retail
Well, at least you don't work for an accounting firm in Troy, Michigan.
That accounting stuff is dangerous.
I'm sure the accounting firm forgot to publicize their "no weapons" policy, and that's why the guy they fired was able to bring a rifle into the office building.
Or maybe the "no guns" policy no longer applied to him, since he was no longer an employee.
Oh, well.
I do hope your employer is prepared to accept the liability for disarming you, thus preventing you from acting in your own defense.
Or maybe one of the security guys won't mind walking you to your car at night.
Well, at least you don't work for an accounting firm in Troy, Michigan.
That accounting stuff is dangerous.
I'm sure the accounting firm forgot to publicize their "no weapons" policy, and that's why the guy they fired was able to bring a rifle into the office building.
Or maybe the "no guns" policy no longer applied to him, since he was no longer an employee.
Oh, well.
I do hope your employer is prepared to accept the liability for disarming you, thus preventing you from acting in your own defense.
Or maybe one of the security guys won't mind walking you to your car at night.
anotherKevin
Member
Security patrols etc.
My employer doesn't mention a weapons policy anywhere, and I've searched for it. I think a person can read what they choose into that.
However, they also offer security services to take you anywhere you need to within the work area, which is pretty spread out. You can get an armed escort simply by making a phone call.
If your employer offers that, frankly I'd take them up on it. Two things can happen - one is that it just becomes a habit, and you don't travel alone, the second is that at some point, management says "Why is our parking lot so unsafe that we need to escort folks with an armed guard?" and you might find that the facility gets a security upgrade.
It doesn't sound like that's really going to apply to you, but it's food for thought.
My employer doesn't mention a weapons policy anywhere, and I've searched for it. I think a person can read what they choose into that.
However, they also offer security services to take you anywhere you need to within the work area, which is pretty spread out. You can get an armed escort simply by making a phone call.
If your employer offers that, frankly I'd take them up on it. Two things can happen - one is that it just becomes a habit, and you don't travel alone, the second is that at some point, management says "Why is our parking lot so unsafe that we need to escort folks with an armed guard?" and you might find that the facility gets a security upgrade.
It doesn't sound like that's really going to apply to you, but it's food for thought.
Essex County
Member
- Joined
- Mar 9, 2005
- Messages
- 1,247
I see this a a question of ethics....
It may suck, but If you cash your employers pay check you should abide by their policy. To do otherwise would be disenugous. Essex
It may suck, but If you cash your employers pay check you should abide by their policy. To do otherwise would be disenugous. Essex
Zundfolge
Member
Ethics, schmethics ... requiring law abiding employees to disarm is as unreasonable as demanding that employees wear briefs instead of boxers.
My gun is NO THREAT to anyone in their company and its none of their damn business what I carry under my clothes.
For myself, I would discretely carry on the job regardless of their stupid policy. As long as they don't have metal detectors or do pat downs I'm well within the law to ignore their policy and any signs they have up ... of course they can fire me for carrying. But Colorado is a work-at-will state so they can fire me for wearing white socks, not washing my hands after I pee or for no reason at all.
The things to consider are:
- What are the long term consequences of losing this job if they find out I'm armed?
- Are there any legal consequences?
- How likely are they to discover I'm packing?
- Am I willing to be disarmed by an employer?
Each of us has to answer these questions for ourselves ... but for me I prefer to stay armed.
Of course its real easy for me because I live in an area that is very friendly to CCW and for a company that I can be open about the fact that I carry and not suffer any consequences (hell, there's a bunch of "gun nuts" here ... I have several targets on my office wall ... and there's only two people in the company that outrank me).
vis-à-vis
Member
My next job I've determined that I am going to carry at work with either an ankle holster or IWB no matter what the company policy is. Concealed means concealed. I cannot at my current job because I work in a security controlled area at an airport.
javacodeman
Member
I agree. I work on a Federal Installation so the consequences are much steeper for me than you. I'm pretty sure that I would be packing something like a Kel-Tec if I were in your situation.
FWIW,
java
I work on a Federal Installation
Same here, and the penalties for shooting so much as a camera at work can end my employment.
I won't risk it because there are criminal penalties involved. It's not just policy, and even if it was I'd have to weigh the situation.
jm
Same here, and the penalties for shooting so much as a camera at work can end my employment.
I won't risk it because there are criminal penalties involved. It's not just policy, and even if it was I'd have to weigh the situation.
jm
DomMega
Member
Again, you gentleman allowed to carry in your particular state are extremely lucky. I had a gun (what looked like a .22 handgun) pulled on me in a liquor store on Christmas Day......Christmas Day! Some drunken gangmember came into the store while I was buying a bottle of wine for my girlfriend's family and started to get a little rowdy. He actually tossed his 40oz of beer down the counter and my arm ended up knocking it over. Than an exchange of pleasantries ensued and as I was walking out of the store i saw him reach into the waist of his pants and pull the pistol. Oddly enough my XD 40 was in my trunk in a locked box in accordance with California law, how ironic. I immediately just ran out of the store without turning my back on said assailant and jumped in my car and took off. The day after I had to jump on a plane to go to Arizona for a Background interview and was there for a month or so afterwards. By the time I got back, the local sheriffs said they couldn't do anything about it since I didn't know who the guy was, where he lived, or what his license plate was. Made me start thinking, well if he shot me and killed me in that store would any of that have mattered? I'd be dead and he'd still be at large probably, yet I can't defend myself as a private citizen in the gang capital of the world. What a joke, yet I still follow the laws of this retarded state I live in because I'm a responsible gun owner. That takes some nerve I think.
I think the fact that you can't carry at your job is a moot point my friend. I think you're more at risk when you're NOT at work and just frequenting regular places in your community than when you're at work with friends and what have you. Furthermore you're a male, less privy to crime than a female, and upon getting to your vehicle you're legally armed and ready the rest of the time. I truly wish I could do that.
I think the fact that you can't carry at your job is a moot point my friend. I think you're more at risk when you're NOT at work and just frequenting regular places in your community than when you're at work with friends and what have you. Furthermore you're a male, less privy to crime than a female, and upon getting to your vehicle you're legally armed and ready the rest of the time. I truly wish I could do that.
as long as it is not illegal...
Do it. No job is worth my life. When I lived in a free state I carried at work, and so did a lot of other folks despite “company policy”. It did change what I carried though. I switched from a Colt Commander to a Colt Gov’t 380. My friend that worked a few cubicles down from me had a Khar PM9 in a ankle holster and someone else carried a SIG245 in a “belly band”.
Also, remember, if you get called on it and you are going to be fired, just quit. Legally if you resign and are not fired your previous employer cannot say anything negative about you. The worst that they can do is say that they cannot comment. Besides, companies are so afraid of being sued these days that they will put up with an amazing amount of crap before they fire you. My guess is if you are caught you will be asked to resign. I would carry as long as it was not illegal. Just find a better way to hid it.
Always remember: If someone is like “what’s that” and points to your pants, just respond “MY Di*K… you want to see it” they will leave you a lone… or then maybe you can sue for sexual harassment.
Do it. No job is worth my life. When I lived in a free state I carried at work, and so did a lot of other folks despite “company policy”. It did change what I carried though. I switched from a Colt Commander to a Colt Gov’t 380. My friend that worked a few cubicles down from me had a Khar PM9 in a ankle holster and someone else carried a SIG245 in a “belly band”.
Also, remember, if you get called on it and you are going to be fired, just quit. Legally if you resign and are not fired your previous employer cannot say anything negative about you. The worst that they can do is say that they cannot comment. Besides, companies are so afraid of being sued these days that they will put up with an amazing amount of crap before they fire you. My guess is if you are caught you will be asked to resign. I would carry as long as it was not illegal. Just find a better way to hid it.
Always remember: If someone is like “what’s that” and points to your pants, just respond “MY Di*K… you want to see it” they will leave you a lone… or then maybe you can sue for sexual harassment.
me neither
but then again I work in a factory no public, I'm nobodys boss nor do I work near any. and the only guy whos wife I'm sleeping with
is strongly against suicide LOL. but as soon as our gov. signs our redo carry bill I can keep it in my car
but then again I work in a factory no public, I'm nobodys boss nor do I work near any. and the only guy whos wife I'm sleeping with
is strongly against suicide LOL. but as soon as our gov. signs our redo carry bill I can keep it in my car- Status
