ATF Raid in Alabama
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cassandrasdaddy
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sigh
do a search on freemans militia this is old news hashed over before. theses guys are toast
do a search on freemans militia this is old news hashed over before. theses guys are toast
cassandrasdaddy
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and here i was thinking that they were part of a multiagency action to stop some dimwits ffrom playing nazi. good of you to simplify it to them enforcing bad laws. i just can't get past what these putz's were gonna do and can't help but think that backing heros like them furthers the impression that gun nuts are.... well just nuts
raid
Grenades? Explosive devices? Rocket launchers? And we actually have a problem with these folks being arrested? I understand that people will actually start screaming "slippery slope"--If we can't have grenades and rocket launchers, then by golly, tomorrow they will be taking our Daisy BB guns, but in know way will I try to argue the constitional right to bear arms extends this far--I don't want people like this, whatever their idealogy, running rampant. Yes, I know they hadn't hurt anybody, YET, and I don't care in this factual context. Like it or not, much of the BOR is governed by a degree of reasonableness that the individual may reject--Freedom of speech doesn't protect against slander. The right to be free from unreasonable detention or searches is attenuated by, that's right, reasonableness.
I know the government has weapons, including WMDs, but that is the way it is. Just because they have thermonuclear devices doesn't mean I, or you, need them, or grenades or rocket launchers. I won't take the bait on the 2500 rounds of ammo--that amount is not that much for many shooters, and the media put that in anyway, with everything else. Shooters can distinguish the 2500 rounds from the rest of the stuff, and should, without defending what no one reasonably wants unchecked in society.
If the government has a line on any group with this stuff, including those associated with certain fundamentalist sects, then I agree, bust ALL of them. And, I am a southern mountain man and I don't like unreasonable interference by government of any level.
Grenades? Explosive devices? Rocket launchers? And we actually have a problem with these folks being arrested? I understand that people will actually start screaming "slippery slope"--If we can't have grenades and rocket launchers, then by golly, tomorrow they will be taking our Daisy BB guns, but in know way will I try to argue the constitional right to bear arms extends this far--I don't want people like this, whatever their idealogy, running rampant. Yes, I know they hadn't hurt anybody, YET, and I don't care in this factual context. Like it or not, much of the BOR is governed by a degree of reasonableness that the individual may reject--Freedom of speech doesn't protect against slander. The right to be free from unreasonable detention or searches is attenuated by, that's right, reasonableness.
I know the government has weapons, including WMDs, but that is the way it is. Just because they have thermonuclear devices doesn't mean I, or you, need them, or grenades or rocket launchers. I won't take the bait on the 2500 rounds of ammo--that amount is not that much for many shooters, and the media put that in anyway, with everything else. Shooters can distinguish the 2500 rounds from the rest of the stuff, and should, without defending what no one reasonably wants unchecked in society.
If the government has a line on any group with this stuff, including those associated with certain fundamentalist sects, then I agree, bust ALL of them. And, I am a southern mountain man and I don't like unreasonable interference by government of any level.
gulogulo1970
Member
Sounds like a good bust to me. Wow, go ATF!
Who knows what they really had?
I note the list of things confiscated included fireworks. It would not be much of a stretch these days for the government to claim these guys had IEDs because they owned some fireworks and a piece of pipe. Constructive possession and all that.
And who knows what the real story is on what they were going to do with these so called IEDs. Not that long ago, it was pretty common for high school kids to make pipe bombs and explode them in the local fishing holes. No one cared.
I also don't know what evil they planned to commit either. OTOH, taken out of context, a lot of what people just casually talk about could sound really bad if the right editing job is performed. A few sentences out of an hour long conversation can sound pretty damning, while a few more sentences to give proper context can make a world of difference.
The pot plants are another issue though. Regardless of how you feel about the war on American's civil liberties the we know as the WOD, pot is illegal and 160 plants is a fair amount of pot. But we do not know the context of that either. It does grow wild around here and every now and then a patch sprouts up in odd places. We don't know if the pot was something they were cultivating, or just weeds growing on a little used piece of property, or whether the pot plants had anything to do with the group.
It does not really matter. They are toast. The feds have an infinite amount of money to spend prosecuting anyone they want to put away, and it is not likely these guys have the funds to put up a credible defense.
I note the list of things confiscated included fireworks. It would not be much of a stretch these days for the government to claim these guys had IEDs because they owned some fireworks and a piece of pipe. Constructive possession and all that.
And who knows what the real story is on what they were going to do with these so called IEDs. Not that long ago, it was pretty common for high school kids to make pipe bombs and explode them in the local fishing holes. No one cared.
I also don't know what evil they planned to commit either. OTOH, taken out of context, a lot of what people just casually talk about could sound really bad if the right editing job is performed. A few sentences out of an hour long conversation can sound pretty damning, while a few more sentences to give proper context can make a world of difference.
The pot plants are another issue though. Regardless of how you feel about the war on American's civil liberties the we know as the WOD, pot is illegal and 160 plants is a fair amount of pot. But we do not know the context of that either. It does grow wild around here and every now and then a patch sprouts up in odd places. We don't know if the pot was something they were cultivating, or just weeds growing on a little used piece of property, or whether the pot plants had anything to do with the group.
It does not really matter. They are toast. The feds have an infinite amount of money to spend prosecuting anyone they want to put away, and it is not likely these guys have the funds to put up a credible defense.
For all the demonization foisted by the feds on these guys, notice in the actual court appearance, the only charges are illegal possession (machine gun, explosives, drugs etc.). Reading the raid-day headlines, you'd think conspiracy to murder, with civil-rights aggravating circumstances would have been a likely charge. Guess we can chalk this up to ATF grandstanding, again? Unnamed informant? A portion of the population, though, laps up anything .gov excretes, so it must be effective.
Doesn't mean we're standing shoulder to shoulder with these guys. The most recent statement made by one of the defense lawyers, was that one of the defendents (the one living in the camper), was looking forward to federal prison, so he could get some dental work taken care of. Plea bargain likely.
In summary, a rogue agency likely inciting a bunch of dummies, does not equal a valuable takedown of a "most dangerous homegrown terrorist cell". Believe it if you want, though.
Doesn't mean we're standing shoulder to shoulder with these guys. The most recent statement made by one of the defense lawyers, was that one of the defendents (the one living in the camper), was looking forward to federal prison, so he could get some dental work taken care of. Plea bargain likely.
In summary, a rogue agency likely inciting a bunch of dummies, does not equal a valuable takedown of a "most dangerous homegrown terrorist cell". Believe it if you want, though.
JohnBT
Member
Whether or not you think there SHOULD be laws against possessing various items, there ARE laws against it. - me
And these laws are unconstitutional, so what is your point? - you
They aren't unconstitutional until the Supreme Court says they are. That's just the reality of it.
____________
"Quote:
Are you really that ignorant of the law?
Are you really that ignorant of the Second Amendment and the Constitution?"
You seem to be laboring under the misconception that we can ignore the laws on the books before they are changed and then whine that it's not fair somehow. Time for a reality check.
John
And these laws are unconstitutional, so what is your point? - you
They aren't unconstitutional until the Supreme Court says they are. That's just the reality of it.
____________
"Quote:
Are you really that ignorant of the law?
Are you really that ignorant of the Second Amendment and the Constitution?"
You seem to be laboring under the misconception that we can ignore the laws on the books before they are changed and then whine that it's not fair somehow. Time for a reality check.
John
I am getting tired of people trying to support gun control laws by comparing them to free speech laws.
Slander (which is kind of a joke I think) actually HARMS another person. So does yelling fire in a crowded theatre since it causes people to get hurt while evacuating for no reason, as well as causing the theatre to lose revenue.
Simply possessing some sort of firearm does NOT cause direct harm to another person. Comprende?
It's not okay for the ATF to enforce bad laws just because you disagree with the views of the defendants. When the ATF finally decides to enforce bad laws against YOU because the ATF decides it also does not like your views, who is going to speak up for you?
Even if there were no restrictions on owning WMD, only govermental bodies and terrorists would own them because private citizens have no use for a weapon that destructive. It serves no purpose.
pacodelahoya
Member
How would we know if they are unconstitutional or not as the SC will not hear a true 2A case?
With the Kelo vs New London decision last year, it is obvious to me that the .gov couldn't give two hoots about Constitutional rights.
no knock warrants and dui checkpoints violate the fourth
the patriot act violates the fifth
the mcain feingold act violates the first(didn't the Prez agree about that one)
With the Kelo vs New London decision last year, it is obvious to me that the .gov couldn't give two hoots about Constitutional rights.
no knock warrants and dui checkpoints violate the fourth
the patriot act violates the fifth
the mcain feingold act violates the first(didn't the Prez agree about that one)
PowderApe
Member
Body Counts and Street Values
Reading that inventory list of confiscated materials is interesting! I'd like to see what these IED's really were... ...it's all symantics (thank lawyers for that too!!)
I keep having flashbacks of "body counts" and "street values" ....as it used to be determined by my government's spin doctors back in the 60's and 70's!!
Think someone's exagerating in the paperwork to maintain full funding?? Follow the money!
If these doofus' were planning something as stupid as a murderous attack, yeah, take 'em down- but not under some trumped up ATF charges. Why release that inventory list except for self aggrandizement, self justification and possibly a "meritorious vigilance" $$$ bonus for those planning such a successful mission/raid, and, no doubt, an increase in agency(ies) funding for such a timely interdiction!
Hell, if someone came into my reloading area and gun room, I could just imagine the newspaper headlines now!! Osama, move over! I'd probably be sharing space at the Post Office wanted poster pinup board with him.... Hell, I've got at least 7 or 8 full bricks of .22's (they were on sale!!) plus lots of other stuff- Talk about "Street Value" ....or should it be the "potential Body Count"!!
Reading that inventory list of confiscated materials is interesting! I'd like to see what these IED's really were... ...it's all symantics (thank lawyers for that too!!)
I keep having flashbacks of "body counts" and "street values" ....as it used to be determined by my government's spin doctors back in the 60's and 70's!!
Think someone's exagerating in the paperwork to maintain full funding?? Follow the money!
If these doofus' were planning something as stupid as a murderous attack, yeah, take 'em down- but not under some trumped up ATF charges. Why release that inventory list except for self aggrandizement, self justification and possibly a "meritorious vigilance" $$$ bonus for those planning such a successful mission/raid, and, no doubt, an increase in agency(ies) funding for such a timely interdiction!
Hell, if someone came into my reloading area and gun room, I could just imagine the newspaper headlines now!! Osama, move over! I'd probably be sharing space at the Post Office wanted poster pinup board with him.... Hell, I've got at least 7 or 8 full bricks of .22's (they were on sale!!) plus lots of other stuff- Talk about "Street Value" ....or should it be the "potential Body Count"!!
DutchmanDick
Member
- Joined
- Sep 3, 2006
- Messages
- 179
Just remember, we're talking about the BATF:
Bureau for the
Absolute
Termination of
Freedom.
'nuff said.
Bureau for the
Absolute
Termination of
Freedom.
'nuff said.
I've always had a hard time with the crowded theatre thing, people always say "well you can't yell 'fire' in a crowded theatre". You can't? What law would that be? What if I yell fire, and absolutely nothing happens? is it still something I "can't" do?
What if I have a gun and nothing happens?
NCLivingBrit
Member
Hey, them rocket launchers have a valid sporting purpose (if you happen to be hunting a Tyrannosaurus).
Seriously, this is a bunch of white supremacists with an arsenal, not some good guy who happens to have fallen foul of 922r.
As a legal immigrant I'm probably more ticked off about illegal immigrants than half the people on here (some of the hoops I've had to jump through are just nuts), but I'm not stashing home made RPG's and IED's in the laundry closet.
Yes, the BATFE is (IMO) criminally slanted towards demonising gun owners, persecuting certain segments of the population and increasing its own authority through the suppression of constitutionally guaranteed freedoms.... But that doesn't mean every person they bust in an angel.
These are bad guys, with an agenda and an arsenal. Patriots don't plan to butcher civillians, no matter where they're from.
Seriously, this is a bunch of white supremacists with an arsenal, not some good guy who happens to have fallen foul of 922r.
As a legal immigrant I'm probably more ticked off about illegal immigrants than half the people on here (some of the hoops I've had to jump through are just nuts), but I'm not stashing home made RPG's and IED's in the laundry closet.
Yes, the BATFE is (IMO) criminally slanted towards demonising gun owners, persecuting certain segments of the population and increasing its own authority through the suppression of constitutionally guaranteed freedoms.... But that doesn't mean every person they bust in an angel.
These are bad guys, with an agenda and an arsenal. Patriots don't plan to butcher civillians, no matter where they're from.
JohnBT
Member
"Simply possessing some sort of firearm does NOT cause direct harm to another person. Comprende?"
And your point is what? The law is about possession, there are different laws about harming people. Don't like the law, take it up with your elected representatives, write Congress or run for office.
"It's not okay for the ATF to enforce bad laws just because you disagree with the views of the defendants."
The ATF enforces the laws on the books, that's just reality. Deny it if you wish, but that's how our system works. Don't like the laws, take it up with your elected representatives.
John
And your point is what? The law is about possession, there are different laws about harming people. Don't like the law, take it up with your elected representatives, write Congress or run for office.
"It's not okay for the ATF to enforce bad laws just because you disagree with the views of the defendants."
The ATF enforces the laws on the books, that's just reality. Deny it if you wish, but that's how our system works. Don't like the laws, take it up with your elected representatives.
John
Two Cold Soakers
Member
A bit more than a drop sack.
That's enough to get arrested and have your guns snatched all away from you even up north here in West by god Michigan where we got an overabundance of liberal college professors, undocumented mexicans and jobless punks looking for a wild time while the sheep are being sheared.
Can you say "Manufacturing with Intent to Distribute"
Last I heard, keeping guns out of the hands of felons was a good thing.
(insert debate about legalizing reefer here)
Would we be as snotty about it if it were the local sherrif who ran the bust? I'm no fan of the baby killing BATF, neither am I a fan of booby trapping, grenade launching, pot growers.
Even I know that if a fool is fool enough to grow his own reefer, he ought to store the guns somplace else.
Soakers - you gonna eat that?
EricTheBarbarian
Member
Ive kind of skimmed some of the posts so I haven't read everyone. The article I read stated these are just guys with beef with the govt who stockpile munitions. Who wants to bet that the ATF raid didnt find everything? I know if I distrusted the govt I would have stuff buried in the yard or in the woods and they could never find it all.
However, alot of people seem to think theyre bad or wanted to kill large numbers of people. All they really did was have some stuff that the govt didnt want them to have. They didnt do anything with it except have it. Govts can only be trusted with that kind of firepower really, because theyve never misused that type of stuff or abused power.
I bet they really changed these guys opinion too. Now that they kicked in their door and stole all of their stuff while probably sending them to prison, I bet they think the govt really isn't so bad after all. Spending 5 yrs in prison with alot of people who dislike the govt will probably end up being a recruiting tour for these types of people.
However, alot of people seem to think theyre bad or wanted to kill large numbers of people. All they really did was have some stuff that the govt didnt want them to have. They didnt do anything with it except have it. Govts can only be trusted with that kind of firepower really, because theyve never misused that type of stuff or abused power.
I bet they really changed these guys opinion too. Now that they kicked in their door and stole all of their stuff while probably sending them to prison, I bet they think the govt really isn't so bad after all. Spending 5 yrs in prison with alot of people who dislike the govt will probably end up being a recruiting tour for these types of people.
Gotta disagree with this statement. Laws don't all of a sudden become unconstitutional when the SCOTUS decides they are. The are unconstitutional all along and only get treated as unconstitutional when SCOTUS decides.
Case in point is McCain-Feingold. This law unconstitutionally limits our free speech, but unfortunately the SCOTUS said it is OK, so until such time as it gets overturned, we have to put up with it. Putting up with it doesn't mean it is constitutional.
JohnBT
Member
That's silly. It's worse than no logic, it's bad logic.
John
John
H23gsr
Member
I have to say I agree with you Geister 100%
It's amazing how hipocritical and absolutely illogical some people are on this forum.
They were not arrested, nor raided because they were anti-government. They were raided because the ATF had reason to believe that illegal rocket launchers, grenades and IED's were present. And a judge agreed and signed the warrant.
You can argue the second ammendment all you want, but the right to keep and bear arms does not include rocket launchers and grenades.
If a radical islamic group were to procure these weapons then many of you would not be happy about it. If a liberal anti-conservative group were to possess these things you would not be happy about it. But yet because a group who in some way shape or form shares similar opinions about the government, you have to support them and be quick to say "ooo, you naughty, naughty government. You shouldn't pick on innocent people". I'm sorry I don't care who you are, grenades and RL's have no legitamate purpose and they do in FACT possess a danger. A negligent discharge of a rocket launcher I think would be a little more devistating than a .45 Colt.
Also, I'm really sick of hearing people say things such as "you can't believe what the liberal media says" or "you can't believe anything from the government". And yet those same people spout out the naive statements damnig the ATF for Waco and the FBI for Ruby Ridge.
I'm sorry, I believe Mr. Weaver was in possession of contraband and failed to show up for court, and by all accounts Weaver and his friend fired first!!!
Was there a radical religious group stockpiling weapons which they did not acquire legally? YES!!!!
Case closed!
I understand most of you do not like the fact that there are laws governing automatic weapons. The unfortunate truth is that there are, and the proper way to deal with that is through politics, not militant insurection!
They were not arrested, nor raided because they were anti-government. They were raided because the ATF had reason to believe that illegal rocket launchers, grenades and IED's were present. And a judge agreed and signed the warrant.
You can argue the second ammendment all you want, but the right to keep and bear arms does not include rocket launchers and grenades.
If a radical islamic group were to procure these weapons then many of you would not be happy about it. If a liberal anti-conservative group were to possess these things you would not be happy about it. But yet because a group who in some way shape or form shares similar opinions about the government, you have to support them and be quick to say "ooo, you naughty, naughty government. You shouldn't pick on innocent people". I'm sorry I don't care who you are, grenades and RL's have no legitamate purpose and they do in FACT possess a danger. A negligent discharge of a rocket launcher I think would be a little more devistating than a .45 Colt.
Also, I'm really sick of hearing people say things such as "you can't believe what the liberal media says" or "you can't believe anything from the government". And yet those same people spout out the naive statements damnig the ATF for Waco and the FBI for Ruby Ridge.
I'm sorry, I believe Mr. Weaver was in possession of contraband and failed to show up for court, and by all accounts Weaver and his friend fired first!!!
Was there a radical religious group stockpiling weapons which they did not acquire legally? YES!!!!
Case closed!
I understand most of you do not like the fact that there are laws governing automatic weapons. The unfortunate truth is that there are, and the proper way to deal with that is through politics, not militant insurection!
Last edited:
JohnBT
Member
"It's amazing how hipocritical and absolutely illogical some people are on this forum."
No, it's not amazing, you're just new.
You'll get used to it if you stick around.
John
No, it's not amazing, you're just new.
You'll get used to it if you stick around.
John
I guess. Because whenever the ATF or police are NOT mentioned, most on this forum it seems offer really good advice! But whenever a law enforcement body is mentioned (especially the ATF) people on her get thier panties all in a wad. And the information they spew about Waco really infuriates me because they got thier information from the media and books written by conspiracy theorists. I know the undercover agent that was inside the branch dividian compound, I know what the intentions of that group were. I also know that the ATF was taking sniper fire as soon as they opened the gate!! So when people start talking about the big bad ATF and what they did to those poor innocent people in Waco, it really @#$%$ me off!!
pacodelahoya
Member
Oobray, definition from merriam webster online dictionary.
a means (as a weapon) of offense or defense; especially : FIREARM
See how it says especially firearms, not ONLY firearms? Whay would you need a separate word for firearms if arms meant only firearms?
During the revolutionary war, the patriots used swords, private cannon and private warships(ever hear of letters of marque?)
Before you start bashing on people who have read and understand the Constitution, maybe you should take a refresher on history.
a means (as a weapon) of offense or defense; especially : FIREARM
See how it says especially firearms, not ONLY firearms? Whay would you need a separate word for firearms if arms meant only firearms?
During the revolutionary war, the patriots used swords, private cannon and private warships(ever hear of letters of marque?)
Before you start bashing on people who have read and understand the Constitution, maybe you should take a refresher on history.
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