ATF Raid in Alabama

[cassandrasdaddy]

whats he got to say

oobray? whats your friend say about the decision to go on raid when davidians knew they were coming?

 

[oobray]

cassandrasdaddy,
The command on the ground admit that the decision to go ahead with the raid was in error. Hindsight being 20/20 of course. However, the decision was made to go ahead because they believed that while the davidians knew the ATF was coming AT SOME POINT they had no idea when. So they bumped the time up a littl sooner. Plus, the undercover was still inside and the ATF feared that if this person was to try and leave, he/she would be harmed due to suspicion (which had happened to other davidians). I'm sure knowing what they know now they would not have done things the same way. However, tactical errors are NOT specific to the ATF and if you're going to start pointing fingers the U.S military has made far more tactical errors. Hmm, maybe 2/3 of the Vietnom battles.

pacodelahoya,
It seems as if you might want to read the constitution yourself. Because I happen to have a copy sitting in front of me as we speak. And Letters of Marque are talked about here in Articel one (which established Congress, just FYI) section 8. It states that

The Congress shall have the power to...
To declare war, grant letters of marque and reprisal, and make rules concerning captures on land and water;

I do not believe that our friends in Alabama possessed such a letter from Congress, do you?
Maybe you should pick up a copy of the constitutionl It's really handy!

 

[LAK Supply]

Hey, them rocket launchers have a valid sporting purpose (if you happen to be hunting a Tyrannosaurus).

What does sporting purpose have to do with the 2A? The 2A IS NOT about hunting or shooting targets.... It's about the People being able to defend themselves against their government. This "sporting purpose" bull$hit is nothing more than a way for the gov't to take more guns away.

Seriously, this is a bunch of white supremacists with an arsenal, not some good guy who happens to have fallen foul of 922r.

Didn't see that in the article. Can you point it out please?



Seriously, I'm not siding with these guys as I don't know what they were up to. However, if it comes down to unconstitutional law and the ATF or people who happened to have some things the gov't said they shouldn't, I'm at least going to remain neutral, if not a little biased against the gov't. They've proven time and time again that they can't be trusted with anything; I don't know these guys from Adam except for what I've read coming from the ATF and the media.........

 

[pacodelahoya]

oobray,

You can argue the second ammendment all you want, but the right to keep and bear arms does not include rocket launchers and grenades.

Just because Congress has not issued letters of marque in the recent past, does not negate the fact that the Consttitution allows me to own a battleship or mig 21 if I could afford it. Owning and using are two different animals.

Sorry about the thread drift, but Randy Weaver's kid shot the ATF agent after the ATF agent shot his dog.

Randy Weaver went to court but the ATF didn,t show(the first time).
The ATF never came up with the SBS that started the whole thing and Randy Weaver was found innocent and provided with a monetary settlement.

Utah filed charges against Horiuchi, but the Feds pressured them to drop them.

I'm not gonna get into Waco because even this is going to cause thread drift and that is not fair to the original poster.

You believe what you want to believe but to say that the .gov and it's agents are always on the up and up borders on the naive.

p.s. I have had friends lie to me before too.

 

[jeep-2]

It would make more sence to me if the ATF would put all their time into sorting out all these ILLegals and find out how many are here to pick lettuce and how many are connected to al-Qaida and other radical Islamic groups that are here to do us harm in the future.
Leave the white red neck veterans alone, if they want to own weapons and chew tobacco, it should be their business, i haven't heard of them trying to blow up anything. Maybe someday we'll be glad that there are secrete millitary groups around, the secrete groups in France helped out us and the french during WW2.

 

[glummer]

oobray

... and by all accounts Weaver and his friend fired first!!!

Funny – I’ve seen an account (the Justice Department report) that said it can’t be determined who fired first.

 

[glummer]

The command on the ground admit that the decision to go ahead with the raid was in error. Hindsight being 20/20 of course.

Nonsense. You don’t initiate a frontal assault, on a defended position, with women and children inside, when the opponent knows you’re coming, unless you intend to kill people.
Lots of people.
The JBT’s error lay in underestimating the difficulty involved.

 

[Caimlas]

The ATF enforces the laws on the books, that's just reality. Deny it if you wish, but that's how our system works. Don't like the laws, take it up with your elected representatives.

I'm not going to try and deny something which is fundamentally untrue. The ATF does not enforce laws, for the most part. What they enforce mandated regulation - nothing law-related.

Besides that, a law which contradicts a law put on the books prior to it, with prerequisite (that pesky Constitution thing), it isn't a law. It's insurrection.

 

[oobray]

glummer,

It was not intended to be an assault. It was intended to be similar to a baricaded subject situation. They were intending on surrounding the building, and waiting until David gave himself and the weapons up. However when the ATF approached the ranch they were immediately fired upon. And making the argument about women and children is sort of a sticky place. While many of the davidians I'm sure hid somewhere inside the building, many women and children were combatants, and comenced firing at the agents. I know that one of the "snipers" on the roof shooting at agents hiding behind a bulldozer was female.
About Ruby ridge. Ok, so they fired at a dog. Would you not shoot a dog that was possibly attacking you? I would! It has been talked about at length on this forum. If a law enforcement officer is pursuing me, and in the process feels the need to shoot my german shepherd, that does NOT mean I can shoot him back!!

What they enforce mandated regulation - nothing law-related.

A regulation is a law, and it must be enforced otherwise it does no good. If you don't like the regulation then you should take that up through the proper political channels. Armed insurrection is not a viable option in todays world. That would make you a terrorist.

 

[pacodelahoya]

That would make you a terrorist.

Only from the perspective of a .gov apologist.

Are you just gonna bend over and hand in your guns WHEN not if your ATF buudy comes for them?

 

[oobray]

You are losing sight of the point. I do not have grenades or rocket launchers. I do NOT believe that citizens have a RIGHT to such weapons. They do not pose a legitamte self defense nor sporting need. This idea that many people have about "defending yourself from government". While that might have been a viable option in the 1700's, it wont work and is utterly idiotic. There is no way that citizens could violently (not politically) rise up and coup a world power government. IT'S NOT GOING TO HAPPEN!!! And talking and pretending that it will, or that you would fight a LEO coming to confiscate your guns is laughable.
If a time comes where LEO's are confiscating firearms from citizens I would be willing to bet that NONE on this forum would (nor should they) physically do anything to stop it.
The only modern way in which to get something done in government would be similar to the civil rights movement.
Anyone who talks about violently overthrowing, or defending against our government makes all gun owners look like terrorists!!! Not only that, but when gun owners speak of such things it only gives those who are already opposed to our ownership of firearms all the more reason to take them from us!!!
If you don't like the way government is doing something GET OUT THERE AND GET SOMETHING DONE!!!
Don't sit on an internet forum and talk about how you'll use a grenade to fight off an oppressive government.

 

[pacodelahoya]

do NOT believe that citizens have a RIGHT to such weapons. They do not pose a legitamte self defense nor sporting need.

Then what are you doing posting on this forum unless you are a troll? I don't believe in santa claus but I do believe in peanut butter. I really could not care less what you beieive in. Just cuz you don't like it aint gonna make it so. Thanks for showing your true colors, now I can put you on my ignore list.

 

[oobray]

I'm not quite sure what you mean by my "true colors", nor do I understand what peanut butter has to do with anything.
But, if we are going to start putting people on "lists" I guess I can put you on my "homegrown terrorist" list due to your felt necessity for rocket launchers and grenades.
If someone can explain to me why someone might need a grenade or rocket launcher, I will be willing to be open minded. However, I do not view these weapons as having any positive use for citizens.

 

[Gifted]

While that might have been a viable option in the 1700's, it wont work and is utterly idiotic. There is no way that citizens could violently (not politically) rise up and coup a world power government.

Mostly because we lack the ability, through the restrictions you support. RPGs and AT-4s were designed to blow up tanks.

If someone can explain to me why someone might need a grenade or rocket launcher, I will be willing to be open minded. However, I do not view these weapons as having any positive use for citizens.

I believe we covered this with the Zumbo deal a few months back. Define "positive use for citizens" for me please.

The civil rights movement worked due to a large portion of the populace being neutral enough that unarmed protesters getting gased and hosed provoked a backlash. Ever hear of the Deacons for Defense? Not much airtime for them, but obviously, while the movement was good overall, some places needed a good bit more help.

Perhaps the Battle of Athens is also worth a look, considering what we're looking at.

Nonviolent protest like the '60s don't work in totalitarian states. Tianemen square proves that point. When the only language understood is force, you need force. Muskets worked for our forefathers, because that's what was used. When you start using tanks and airplanes, you need effective countermeasures.

 

[freakazoid]

If a time comes where LEO's are confiscating firearms from citizens I would be willing to bet that NONE on this forum would (nor should they) physically do anything to stop it.

You don't think that someone should stick up for their 2A UNALIENABLE RIGHTS!? What other rights are you willing to just let them take away from you?

They do not pose a legitamte self defense nor sporting need.

Self defence against our .gov maybe? What other forms of arms do you seem to think that we don't need? Fully-automatic firearms? Semi-automatic firearms? Bolt action? Pump? Lever? Musket?

Anyone who talks about violently overthrowing, or defending against our government makes all gun owners look like terrorists!!! Not only that, but when gun owners speak of such things it only gives those who are already opposed to our ownership of firearms all the more reason to take them from us!!!

So what? They already think and call us that. Whats next, your going to say that Americas founding fathers should of just not had a revolution? For fear of being called a terrorist?

If you don't like the way government is doing something GET OUT THERE AND GET SOMETHING DONE!!!

Reform only goes so far... There comes a time when more drastic measures need to be taken.

 

[obxned]

I believe everything the BATF says, and I believe in the Tooth Fairy.

 

[Don Gwinn]

No Personal Attacks.

High.

Road.

Not Negotiable.

 

[Zen21Tao]

These wouldn't happen to be relatives of "Gun Kid" would they?

 

[JohnBT]

"I'm not going to try and deny something which is fundamentally untrue. The ATF does not enforce laws, for the most part. What they enforce mandated regulation - nothing law-related."

Does not enforce laws for the most part? Then they do enforce laws. Anyway, you're just quibbling and splitting hairs over the definition of laws, regulations, statutes, etc. The ATF does not enact legislation, they enforce it.

John

 

[glummer]

oobray

About Ruby ridge. Ok, so they fired at a dog. Would you not shoot a dog that was possibly attacking you?

The dog was chasing them because they intentionally provoked it, by throwing a rock into the bushes near the dog. Against orders; they were NOT to make contact with the Weavers.

If a law enforcement officer is pursuing me, and in the process feels the need to shoot my german shepherd ...

They were NOT pursuing -the Marshals were under orders NOT to pursue anyone, or even let anyone know they were there.

 

[ArmedBear]

a spokesman with the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosive, said both firearms and explosives were seized in the raids.

They're falling down on the job. These guys had NO alcohol or tobacco?

 

[I LIKE IT!]

All I can think is "we are all just pawns"

 

[oobray]

Gifted, Freakazoid and Glummer,

So let me get this straight, all of you are in favor of violent revolution in this country, is that correct?
If so, how do you suggest we go about it? Then once you are sqaushed by every democratic country in the world, how do you expect to restore governmental body to this country? Or would you rather we create an Iraq quagmire here at home too?

 

[freakazoid]

So let me get this straight, all of you are in favor of violent revolution in this country, is that correct?
If so, how do you suggest we go about it?

I do,
How we reach it depends on many different things. I personally believe that we are heading towards another depression, which will be much much much worse than the one that we had before, because of our need for oil to get to places really fast. It is possibly through this that a revolution is possible. Ever read the book Patriots: Surviving the Coming Collapse?
Another one is that the government finally gets to the point where a law passes saying that the nobody has the rights to firearms and that they government will confiscate them. I believe that this would really make many mad and that they would refuse, which point the .gov would do something stupid like shoot and kill someone someone freedom loving 2A believing person, which would cause people to take up arms against the .gov.
And another is that a state finally seceds from the union which the .gov reacts by starting another civil war.
And another is, etc, etc, and etc.

Then once you are sqaushed by every democratic country in the world,

What do you mean? Are you saying that every "deomocratic" country is going to try to capitalise on this by trying to invade or are you saying that the countries are going to help quell the rebellion?

how do you expect to restore governmental body to this country?

I'm an anarchist, so what "governmental body"?, And for the people that are libertarions who would have it restored to how it once was, why would there be this difficulty restoring the governmental body?

 

[glummer]

oobray

Gifted, Freakazoid and Glummer,

So let me get this straight, all of you are in favor of violent revolution in this country, is that correct?

? I don’t recall saying anything about revolution, violent or otherwise.

Though, since you brought it up, I certainly believe, as did a lot of the Founding Fathers, that it is wise to keep revolution as a possibility. Thus the Second Amendment.