The One Huge Advantage of Position SUL

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Interesting theory and technique, and I'll go back an reread it all later. As a non-professional, I think for the time being I'll stick to the advice my softball coach gave me many years ago when I was 6 and making one-handed catches in the outfield - "Two hands for beginners."

As far as what the civil police will think when they show up and see a citizen with a gun...well, I'll take my chances and pray that I've survived the situation.

John
 
How responding officers act upon arrival at a scene where an armed citizen is holding a firearm on someone has a lot more to do with how the call was dispatched, where the incident is located at (there are some rural areas where it isn't all that unusual to respond to this type of call), and what their gut feeling tell them is going on upon arrival then how the citizen is holding his/her firearm.

Several years ago I held some people who had been removing parts from my neighbor's vehicles at 11 pm until the sheriffs deputy arrived. Even though I knew the responding deputy personally, and the dispatcher had told everyone I was holding the subjects at gunpoint I put my AR down when the squad turned down our drive and depended on my holstered, concealed pistol if I needed to defend myself. When a call like that goes out, you never know who will respond in this rural area. It would be quite possible that a conservation officer or trooper who normally worked another county, and who I didn't know might respond to offer assistance on a call like that.

If I respond to a call like that and there is someone who is walking around carrying his/her weapon in SUL, I will still point my weapon at them, have them ground their weapon and step back, turn around and prone out. I can't think of too many situations where an armed person would be just shot outright by responding officers unless there is a gunfight in progress upon arrival. If you think that carrying in SUL and looking harmless will prevent you from being disarmed you are most likely wrong.

These situations are always very tense as the responding officers have to weigh what dispatch has told them with what they see when they arrive and make decisions in seconds. But I think that just like the proverbial thread about home invaders disguised as the police, we overstate the chances of getting shot by the responding officers. Yes it has happened, but I can tell you from working in a rural area, that nationwide police probably respond to hundreds of calls a day where an armed citizen is holding a criminal at gunpoint. Very few of these incidents result in anyone being shot. Yes there are blue on blue incidents involving armed citizens and off duty and undercover officers, but they are pretty rare.

If you have to have your weapon in hand when the officers arrive, SUL is probably a good, non threatening option. Expect to be treated as a threat until the officers establish otherwise. SUL or any other position won't automatically ID you as a good guy.

Jeff
 
Paul, aah, finally! So, the question is was Sul a controlling factor or not? Would it have mattered if low ready or behind the laig ready were utilized as long as the pistola was not pointing at the participant?

Does tactisul rule the day, or at least the scenario? Obivously, I wasn't there, but cannot see how sul or whatever would have anymore impact than shirt color. Just curious as I know you were there.
 
El T,

Was Sul a contributing factor? Yeah.

Was it the main factor? Probably not.

Would the discovery of someone concealing a weapon behind the leg resulted in their having been shot? Possibly.

Would someone pointing a gun in the general direction of an armed good guy result in a shooting? Could be.

I've seen aggressive guys get shot while in Sul and less forceful personalities not get shot even though they were pointing guns around.

There are a ton of factors involved in the particulars of any scenario.

Are there weapon control issues when using Sul? Sure.

Are there weapon control issues when using Low Ready? Absolutely.

Unless people are willing to train with some degree of force and risk bumps, bruises, contusions, discomfort, sweat, broken gear and disillusionment, realistic understanding of the strengths and weaknesses of any given technique will be lacking.
 
"Unless people are willing to train with some degree of force and risk bumps, bruises, contusions, discomfort, sweat, broken gear and disillusionment, realistic understanding of the strengths and weaknesses of any given technique will be lacking."

Screw that! I'll stick to the square range and shoot some goddamned fast El Pres's!

That's Training!

LOL
 
This is all really very simple.

IN MY OPINION, SUL was/is the best option in the scenario I've described.

If you guys don't want/need/use/like SUL, great.

However, the idea that SUL is not a real world technique is plain silly.

There are some very hard people using SUL successfully on a daily basis around the world. It has it's place.

Dave Williams
 
If I recall guys, wasn't it the case that there was no friendly fire on any of the two teams and the ccw bystander in the restaurant? Not to disparage Sul as it wasn't in my run that we ran into that.

I clearly had a good guy gun pointed straight at me - which by the way, let a BG shoot me.

One thing about the scenario that bothered some of us was the minor hit rule that put you out of the game. It's a problem as I lost a team member to a hand hit. In other scenarios, you could take a hit and stay in the fight.

Not to hijack the thread. In the quote, real world, I might expect that not that many BGs are running around in SUL and I could see that influencing a shoot or no shoot.

Personally, I have a touch a physical problem with SUL as when I broke my wrist I lost about 10 degrees of rotation and SUL feels weak for me. I used it in Andy's class and appreciate its logic. I just feel stronger in a low ready.

Another thing was the report that lots of us constantly covered the good guys in scenarios. Covering your 'son' was common. Sul might avoid this. I remember that as time went on in a stage, someone said that the tendency was to cover all with the gun more. Maybe Jack commented on that in terms of a criterion shift towards being ready to fight. That led to many folks hosing the toilet guy.

As Paul said, you have to try this kind of thing and get the bruises. But dinner after was good.
 
I just happened across this thread in a search.

Its been interesting to read the conjecture and speculation about this topic. Having actually worked that NTI . . . been present for its after action debrief to our Team . . . and the discussions we have about the trends we've witnessed at our monthly Study Groups throughout the year, I suggest what I have to offer might be a little more than conjecture and speculation.


Jeff actually brought to light the discussion and the question we sought to resolve amongst the Team's discussions:
Jeff White said, The first post was about how the role player at NTI who used SUL wasn't engaged by any of the shooters. NOT about if SUL is a good position to use.

I'm still waiting to find out why the shooters didn't engage the role player.

El Tejon said: Just my $.02, don't really know, wasn't there. Did anyone debrief the participants and ask them why?

Absolutely. I assure you quite a bit of debriefing occurs. Not only are Practitioners debriefed for their own personal benefit, the Team takes our own notes, compiles them, and we study them for trends. The information we gather gets disseminated for our benefit throughout the rest of the year during monthly Study Group.

As Dave points out Rule #4 violations are very common. In fact, its so common when an unarmed Ted moves, I see it shot roughly between 30-60% of the time. The more abrupt I have the target set to move, or as proximity to the Practioner increases, so does the percentage. Even when the target responds to challenge, "Its ME, Dad!!!", or they've been shown a picture of a family member 120 seconds prior, and it is the same Teddy that was in the photograph. Doesn't matter who it is; we've seen everyone who attends regularly do it at least once. We've also done it to each other.

El Tejon said: How is it that tactisul prevented the misidentification issues that Mr. Williams speculated it might?

. . . .
how did it prevent the wrong person from being shot? The operators ("I'd like the area code for Smithville, please") didn't see a gun? The deadly operators knew he was a kindred spirit and well met? The deadly operators thought that tactisul is tacticool and would never shoot a fellow suler?


When asked, "Why didn't you shoot him? He had a gun out." Responses were fairly consistent: "Because he didn't appear to be a part of the problem. He didn't seem like he was a Bad Guy."


That particular encounter, and others just like it we've done, are designed to teach lessons. The lesson isn't, "Is, or is not, position Sul any good?" Its about justification, and moral decision-making. Yes, he had a gun. Guess what? We all have guns.


Everyone at the NTI, at Tuesday orientation, very likely has a gun on him or her. Nearly 100 guys assembled in one room, not one of us in uniform, and we are all armed. We joke sometimes if a VCA were to attempt to rob the hotel bar, we'd have more to worry about being shot by each other than the mugger. The lesson is to try to unlearn, "See gun = Shoot". IDPA teaches it; IPSC teaches it; nearly 100% of the trainers teach it, with some small exceptions. The exceptions are so few its statistically insignificant. If that's what we've trained ourselves to do, we are training ourselves to shoot each other.


The Practitioners that saw the Role Player with the gun concluded, nearly instantaneously, that he wasn't a threat to them. They decided based solely on his behavior and body language, not on anything he said. He hadn't said anything significant to that point. Position Sul seems to communicate to observers on a subconscious level, "I have a gun out, but I'm not looking to recklessly or maliciously hurt someone with it." Its different that Low Ready. Low Ready seems to communicate a message that subconsciously suggests a slightly more aggressive posture.


Position Sul just seems to communicate something in its body language that makes the observer pause. Its not limited to these "deadly operators" El Tejon suggests were present. With the exception of the tiny handful of Officers in uniform, we're all Armed Citizens at the NTI. I've even personally gotten the same response from a complete neophyte in a FoF scenario this year. And that pause might give the Practitioner that one or two seconds he needs to verbally communicate, "I don't want to hurt you. I'm just protecting my family," to the other Armed Citizen present, or the First Responders at the scene.


Its not going to change how a Peace Officer might deal with you, other than to perhaps give you a chance to not get yourself shot without being challenged first. I really don't have any preference in the position one way or the other. But, I do recognize its benefits, this perhaps being its most valuable.



Does that answer your question Jeff?
 
Its been interesting to read the conjecture and speculation about this topic. Having actually worked that NTI . . . been present for its after action debrief to our Team .

You know, after action reports from that particular NTI have been conspicously absent from the web. Even guys like Tim Burke who always post an AAR, didn't have much to say. Was that a reaction to the events and scenarios of that particular year?
 
Trebor said: after action reports from that particular NTI have been conspicously absent from the web. . . .

I don't know, Trebor. Tim usually does post an after action report. So does John Farnam. John will usualy do his write-up at the hotel immediately after he participates, and it gets posted at his earliest oppotunity. You'll have to ask Tim if he did one. Shoot him a PM Tim Burke's THR Profile and ask him. I'll see him in 2 weeks at the next event, but I'll never remember to mention it.

As I recall, that particular interaction was on Saturday morning, which is an "informal" Partners Sims event. Two Practitioners "buddy up", and go through the FoF scenario as a team. By Saturday, most of the guys who need to return home early have already left. Roughly 70% do stay the full weekend, and have dinner with us for the "awards ceremony" that Saturday night. Tim may have left early and didn't participate in that event.

Most of the NTI Team concerns itself with disassembling ATSA Villiage, the Mystery Gun, and pneumatics stage Saturday. The few that aren't working serve as Role Players and Judges in Partner's FoF. We have to have everything that you see up for the event torn down, stacked and stowed, the Teddy's stripped of their clothing, props packed away, etc. so the Club can be reopened for the other members' use by Monday morning. With the exceptions being the "L" House, and the 360 House which stay up all year.

While we're busy deconstructing and packing up, we see very little of the actual playtime. I do believe that event was videotaped for us to see in the NTI XV debriefs to the Team on July's Study Day.

John F. may have something in his quip archives. I'll go look now. Ask Tim what he has of it, or if he left beforehand.

Ken
 
John Farnam had something to say about it.

http://www.defense-training.com/quips/2005/03June05.html

03June05

Guns of NTI 2005

I shot the 2005 NTI (National Tactical Invitational, Harrisburg, PA) yesterday. Best one yet! Lots of ego-desecrating events, as always. Seve ral excellent lectures when we were not shooting. Moments of brilliance, and m oments of blundering! There were six, separate, live-fire events on six, differen t ranges and four Ammunitions/roll-playing episodes in a segregated area call ed ASTA Village. As my main pistol, I used four different guns, so I could ge t practical experience with all:

(the new) Detonics, 45ACP S&W Sc 1911, Commander, 45ACP G38, 45 GAP SIG/229/DAK, 357SIG

Backup guns were my S&W Sc 340PD 38Spl snubby and my Kel-Tec 380Auto. Both

backups came into play on several exercises, as did my Vaquero Grande! All

ran without a hitch.

In addition, I carried Fox OC, my Surefire Aviator flashlight, three Cold Steel blades (Ti-Lite, Vaquero Grande, and Culloden neck knife). Concealin g it all was my Concealed Carry Clothiers vest. Holsters were by Gregg Garrett at Comp-Tec, Brian Hoffner at Hoffner's, and Rusty Sherrick. Fabri c belt is by Wilderness.

My G38 and SIG 229 were both carried in Comp-Tec's C-Tac IWB holster. Thin , comfortable, and fast. The Detonics and the S&W Sc Commander were both carried in Brian Hoffner's famous "Minimalist" IWB ky-dex holster. Also fa st and comfortable. The pistol nearly disappears! My S&W Sc snubby was in Rusty Sherrick's upside-down shoulder holster. Easy access with either hand, and I hardly know I have it on. Nice way to carry a backup. My Kel-Tec was carried in Comp-Tec's neck holster. Best was to carry this little gun!

I shot all events with Cor-Bon Powerball and DPX, with the exception of the

Kel-Tec, which I had loaded with Cor-Bon 90gr HPs. I ran both Powerball an d DPX through the Detonics. Gobbled them right up! I shot the S&W Sc Commander with Powerball. Again, flawless functioning. The G38 enthusiast ically ate up all the DPX I could feed it, and the SIG ran just fine on Powerball, which is my standard, carry round. DPX is not yet available in 357SIG cali ber, and 45GAP is currently only available in 160gr DPX and 200gr HP. Both run fine in the G38, but DPX is my standard carry round in that caliber.

The Detonics is an appealing carry pistol, to be sure. I commented to a colleague, "Sure is nice to be carrying a 1911 again!" Accuracy is amazing , and it is really fast- out and in. I am delighted that Jerry Ahern is producin g this little gun once more. It garnered lots of admirers!

The S&W Sc Commander is the best Commander I own! Extremely light and fast , nicely dehorned, it has all the features I like.

The G38 is a 45 caliber gun that can be carried concealed by anyone who can

carry a G19/23/32. The 45GAP round is hard hitting and feeds reliably. Fo r those of us who like 45 caliber pistols, this one is hard to beat.

The SIG/DAK is "old reliable." Heaver than the rest, but with it I have lots or rounds and the pistol has little muzzle rise, even during rapid fir e. A heavy hitter and a great companion, to be sure!

More on events later.

/John
 
And actual scenario AAR's; the "resturaunt" scenario bolded on the next segment. VBulletin only alows 21000 characters so I split it to start with Saturday's Partners FoF on the next post. As I remembered, it in fact was a Saturday Partners FoF event:

http://www.defense-training.com/quips/2005/06June05.html

06June05

NTI 2005

We'll all now recovering from the 2005 NTI in Harrisburg, PA, nursin g the customary cuts, scrapes, and Simmunitions bruises. Bruised knees, elbows, and egos go with the territory at the NTI, and this year provided it all, in spades! Our sincere thanks, once more, to Skip, Jim, Hersh, and the entire NTI staff for a wonderful and enlightening event.

Live-fire events were entitled:

Don & Kenny's Hard Luck Caf=A9 Dueling Banjos Medical Clinic Skills Demonstration Harmony House ASTA Old Folks' Home Subway Madness

Simmunitions/role-playing events were:

Underground Parking Garage Tattoo Parlor Pawn Shop Bank Robbery Gang Rumble

House/team problem Restaurant/team problem

As always, live-fire targets were three-dimensional mannequins, dressed, reactive (when hit), and mixed in with "non-targets." There were hostages, hostage takers, moving targets, moving non-targets, building mockups, period ic explosions (complete with falling/flying debris), people screaming, loud mus ic, and smoke. Targets were armed, menacing, and some were obviously wearing body armor. Not all were facing you. Side and quartering shots were sometimes required. They were holding pistols, rifles, knives, claw hammer s, RPGs, and, in one exercise, there was an M26 hand grenade rolling around on the floor which apparently belonged to no one!

In the Subway Madness Event, you find yourself in the middle of a terrorist
attack at a downtown, urban intersection. Your goal is to rescue an infant
in a baby carriage (mother has been shot to death and is lying next to the carriage) and get to a subway egress which has a concrete entryway, providin g cover and an escape route. Panicked bystanders are everywhere, holding cameras, handbags, at al. Terrorist suspects have guns, are holding them i n a menacing manner, and clearly represent active threats. With others, it is less clear. There are several items of useable cover: cars, mail boxes, etc. Target identification is difficult, as some people are as far away as one h undred meters. An apparently loaded and functional Kalashnikov rifle is lying on the street, next to its slain (previous) owner.

I quickly gunned down several obvious terrorists while moving to the neares t object of cover. With distant figures, I could not confirm if they represented a threat or not, so I did not engage them, nor did I pick up the Kalashnikov (never saw it). Others did pick it up and use it. Still other s intentionally left it where it was, considering that it may well mark them as terrorists. Still others (like me) left it where it was, because they neve r saw it. My persistent problem is that I often fail to see items for which I =99m not looking. So, when I'm looking only for threatening people, I don 't see things like unattended Kalashnikovs!

Moving from cover to cover, I finally rescued the baby, but I hade trouble getting him out of the carriage, as he was strapped in. In retrospect, I could have taken the entire carriage, but I never thought of it.

Lessons: You must zig-zag when running directly toward or away from threats . Otherwise, from their perspective, you're standing still and thus present a useful, and not particularly challenging, target.

Your defensive handgun skill set must include a well-established ability to
hit human targets at relatively long ranges, as far as fifty meters. Close
threats are most likely, but when you're routinely armed only with a pistol, you must have the ability to effectively deal with a wide spectrum of threa ts. Along that line, Express Sights on pistols present a sight picture that is too coarse to be useful past ten meters. Several participants discovered t his to their frustrated dismay. Express Sights are wonderful on shotguns, but, in view of the foregoing, I don't recommend them on pistols.

In any life-threatening emergency, you have to keep looking for, and considering, options. That way, you can tweak your basic plan in an instan t. Always have a general blueprint (plan) but retain flexibility. However, on ce you make a decision, don't look back! Do one thing. Don=80=99t try to do several things at once, as your focus will become divided, and you'll start to dither. Whatever you decide to do, understand that neither your plan nor your execution will be perfect. Afterward, someone will always point out where you could have done it better. None of that is important! Worry less about fi nding the perfect solution and more about good, aggressive action. Don't become a victim of "The Paralysis of Analysis." A banal plan, execut ed in the nick of time, is better, by far, than is the perfect plan executed a moment too late. In a fight, think less; act more!

The Old Folks' Home Event was staged in the 360 degree range, and ea ch participant was required to go in alone. With all other life-fire events, you have a member of the range staff with you, but with this one, you're on your own. Once in the problem, you're free to move and shoot as fast as you wish, and in any direction!

You find yourself at an old folks' home, visiting relatives who are residents there. As you enter the building trying to find them, there is a loud explosion. Flying debris comes cascading down on you. Simultaneously, gun shots are heard as well as threatening voices, and you then see a hand grenade on the floor in front of you. When you try to retreat back out the door throu gh which you entered, you discover it is now locked. Your task is to live long enough to rescue your (two) relatives and escape, with them, out the back door.

Most threats are not immediately visible, but they lurk everywhere! I had to move quickly, but not too quickly. It is a balance. Stay one place too long, and you'll find yourself outmaneuvered. Move too quickly, and you'll blunder into a trap.

As always, I moved aggressively from cover to cover, gunning down threats a s fast as I could perceive and identify them. Reloading had to be accomplished quickly, and I dared not look at my pistol in the process, lest a threat sneak up on me. I ran out of ammunition at one point and was compelled to transition to by backup gun. My main gun had to be jettisoned, as there was no time to reholster it

At one point, I was confronted by a terrorist who had explosives strapped t o his chest. Range was two meters, and I had sparse cover at the moment. I elected to shoot him in the head, which I did without hesitation. In retrospect, I could have moved to better cover instead of shooting instantly, but I selected the former course of action.

Exhausted and out of breath, I finally rescued and evacuated my relatives!

Lessons: When moving in a dangerous environment, within a building or anywhere threats can be close but unseen, you must practice retention gun-h andling techniques: retention draw, retention reload, and retention movement. Your pistol needs to stay close to your body, particularly when you're holding it with only one hand. For example, when you move while leading with your gun , you may find yourself suddenly blind-sided and forcibly disarmed. Worse, you'll telegraph your presence to all looking your way. They may not see your entire body, but they'll see your hands and gun sticking out from behind a corner. Convenient way for you to alert them to your presence and prepare them to confront you effectively!

You must learn to continually identify, seek, and use cover to your best advantage. Otherwise, you'll find yourself in the open too much of the time. Always present threats and potential threats with a difficult target.

Movement must be swift, smooth, and planned. The best tactic is to move from cover to cover, pieing corners as necessary, and remaining in the open only for brief periods.

Much of your shooting will be one-handed, unsupported. Carrying injured relatives and holding doors open will tie up at least one of your hands mor e or less continuously. You must be practiced and proficient at one-handed shooting, with either hand!

Doors and other subtle clues are easy to miss when you're not lookin g for them. Threats must be dealt with, of course, but don't forget your goal. Your goal is not to chase after and kill every bad guy in the area. Your goal i s to disengage and escape with minimum damage to yourself and your relatives.

The "Harmony House" is your residence. As you arrive home, it becomes obvious from the disarranged furniture that something is wrong. You know t hat your adult son is in the house. Your goal is to find your son and, with hi m, escape with minimum damage.

I drew my pistol and started moving quickly. There were a number of rooms, and I had to call to my son and try to find him. Several armed criminals were confronted and shot to death as fast as they could be identified. Blood (red Koolade) spattered as my bullets found their mark. Some of it ended on me! One armed criminal was wearing body armor and had to be shot in the head. Range was three meters.

When I did locate my son, I saw that he had suffered a neck wound, as blood was pulsing in projectile spurts from his carotid artery. I told him to apply pressure to the wound with his hand and to follow me. There was no t ime to apply a pressure dressing.

When we reached the back door, more armed criminals greeted us. All had to be gunned down before we could make good our escape.

Lessons: Don't relax too soon! Just as I reached the back door, out of breath and exhausted, I thought the end was in sight. No such luck! I sta rted to relax just when I should have been most vigilant. Look before you exit!

In the Skills Demonstration, you are required to quickly and effectively engage targets, from the concealed draw, while moving off the line of force, at extremely close range to short range. You also need to demonstrate that yo u can correctly reload, reduce stoppages, use cover, and scan. Targets are exposed only for a matter of seconds, so you need to be able to move fast.

Lesson: Nearly all participants know how to perform these basic defensive pistol skills, but some still hesitated and fumbled, because they have not practiced enough to be able to perform under the stress of a timed event. Amateurs practice until the get it right. Professional practice until they can't get it wrong!

At the Dueling Banjos Medical Clinic, you find yourself undressed and unarmed (except for a hospital gown), as you are about to undergo a medical examination. In addition, your right leg is in a brace, so you can=80 t move very fast. You do have a flashlight. The entire building is dark. When you en ter the examination room, you find the doctor has been shot and killed. Gunsho ts and threatening voices are heard, along with loud country music. Beside th e dead doctor is a single-shot, break-open rifle in 357 Maximum caliber. A dozen cartridges are scattered on a table. Your goal is to rescue your wif e and adult son, who are also at the clinic, using only the rifle and ammunition that you found.

Grabbing the rifle and scooping up as many cartridges as I could, I got the rifle loaded and cocked as I held my flashlight and cartridges in my left hand, dropping a few as I went along. There were no pockets on the gown.

Hobbling down the darkened hall, I checked the first room. There, in a dar k corner, was my son, with an armed criminal behind him holding a gun to his head. Trying to use the rifle and flashlight at the same time, while not dropping my handful of cartridges, I shot the criminal in the head, once again splattering blood on myself. I don't think anyone looked graceful performing this stage! After engaging several other armed criminals, my family and I were able to escape.

Lesson: In a tactical emergency, spend you time finding a way to win, not looking for an excuse to lose. At every NTI there is a "Mystery Gun " stage, where you are compelled to effectively employ an unfamiliar firearm. This iteration was particularly frustrating. The trick is to stay focused. It is easy to become overwhelmed while trying to juggle too many thoughts and circumstances. You have to keep your objective in mind and keep spinning y our OODA loop as you identify viable options. Whatever the circumstance, whatever t he obstacles, resolve to fight through and fight on.

At Don & Kenny's Hard Luck Caf=A9, once again, you enter looking for a family member. As soon as you walk in, you see armed criminals and several victim s laying on the floor, actively bleeding from gunshot wounds. The entrance i s blocked, and your only choice is to find the back door. In this exercise, bad guys are pneumatic instead of impact activated, so they take a lot of shooting before they go away. I immediately went to work on them with my G 38 as they appeared and disappeared. I went through both magazines and had to transition to my backup. Five shot later, and I had to transition to my se cond backup. Seven shoots at the last bad guy, and I had no more functional gun s on me! Without delay, out came my Cold Steel Vaquero Grande! As the blade snapped into place, the range officer informed me that the exercise was ove r, as he knew I was ready to go at the last mannequin!

Lesson: If you carry a gun for personal protection, carry at least two. When you carry backup guns, you much regularly practice with them and transitioning to them. Going from gun to blade is also an important transi tion that must be practiced.

At the Underground Parking Garage, you are trying to find your car. It =99s dark. A woman nearby is also trying to find hers. A man appears and asks you if you and the woman are together. He then produces a pistol and starts shooting at the terrified woman.

When he asked me the question, I said no. When he subsequently threatened the woman, I grabbed her and placed her in front of me as I used my car for
cover. A gun battle ensued between the armed criminal and me. He was unab le to hit me, because I kept appearing in a different place. Unfortunately, h e did the same thing, and I could not get a clear shot at him either. I fina lly pushed the woman out ahead of me as we left cover and escaped through the entryway. I was not hit, but the woman was, in the leg.

Lesson: When confronted by strangers, don't answer questions. Instead of answering the criminal's question, I should have said, "Sorry, I can't help you."

Rescuing innocent people is a question that must be settled between you and your own conscience. I was unwilling to stand by and watch this woman murdered, but I really didn't know anything about the situation, and it may not have been a smart move. For the record, it was my decision.

I should have used my light in the Harries' Technique while engaging the criminal from behind cover. He later told me that I blinded him at first, but then I put the light away. I should have continued to blind him.

Use verbal challenges. I kept saying "We're police officers . Drop you weapon!" Although he didn't give up, I could tell my comman ds were confusing him and dividing his focus.

At the Tattoo Parlor, nothing happened! Jumpy participants looked in vain for threats, but none appeared. Some even brandished guns, only to be compelled to sheepishly put them away. Others got into pointless, verbal alterations, when all they had to do was walk away.

Lesson: Don't pick fights. Be alert, but don=80=99t start imagi ning threats where there aren't any. When casual conversations deteriorate, disengage immediately. Non-compliance is the best indicator of trouble. When a perf ectly reasonable request is refused or ignored, it's time to leave.

At The Pawn Shop, you're looking over an assortment of guns as you contemplate a purchase. An armed robber bursts in and confronts the owner at gunpoint, mumbling about how he owes him something. He displays little int erest in you.

I assumed the pseudo-submissive position and indicated I wanted to leave, but the robber blocked the exit. I saw no opportunity to draw and shoot, s o I waited. The robber eventually got what he came for and left. I exited immediately thereafter, only to be confronted, at gunpoint, by a second arm ed criminal! Again, there was no opportunity to draw and fire or for a disarm . Eventually, the Sheriff came along and defused the situation.

Lesson: When in the presence of armed criminals, keep as many options open for as long as you can. Look for opportunities. Sometimes, waiting is the best option, at least in the short term. When your options start drying up , such as when criminals want to search you, or demand that you get on your knees, or try to heard you into a freezer, make your move while you still can!

At The Bank, you are again minding your own business, trying to make a cash transaction. In bursts an armed robber brandishing a pistol. This time, h e took a direct interest in me, demanding my wallet. I tossed it to him. He then demanded my watch. When he reached out to take it, I performed a disarm.


Lesson: Sometimes, a forcible disarm is the only viable option, but you hav e to get close enough to make it work. Disarms are something we teach and drill in our Advanced Classes, as they are a vital part of your repertoire .

When you decide to surrender your wallet, toss it on the ground. He may bend over to retrieve it giving you an opportunity to shoot him. I thought about that afterward.

At the Gang Rumble, you find yourself and three friends in the middle of a shooting war between rival gangs, right in the middle of town! A convent escape is down a dark alley as two, armed gang members rush toward you.

It became clear to me that these two gang members were intent on going down the alley. It also became clear that they had no interest in me. I therefore decided to step aside and let them proceed, which they did. They could have shot me on the way, but it appeared they were so intent in getting int o the fight on the other side of the alley that I was just a minor distraction. I was content to remain so.
 
Continued:

On Saturday, we all participated in two, team, roll-playing exercises: The House/Team Problem and the Restaurant/Team Problem.

In both drills, you and a partner find yourselves together in a situation.

Only one of you is armed. There is another two-man team in the exercise, a nd all four try to make contact, develop synergy, and proceed.

In the House Exercise, you and a friend are sharing a condo with another tw o people whom you've just met. Suddenly, armed home invaders break in and start shooting.

In this exercise, my partner and I never linked up with the other two. My partner was armed but overwhelmed. He tried to throw his pistol to me, but it landed short. Other groups did link up and were able to work together.

In the Restaurant Exercise, you are one in a party of four, but all four can't be seated together, so you find yourself and one partner in an isolated room by yourselves. Suddenly, there is shooting and yelling. Only one of the two of you is armed. You try to link up with your friends and escape.

I was the one armed this time. The entry was blocked, so we started going room to room, with me in the lead. We encountered an armed citizen. He had his gun out, but we were able to determine that he did not represent a threat. Unfortunately, he was scared, unsophisticated, and of little use, so we took his pistol from him and put him between us as we continued. We then f ound ourselves in a stand-off with several armed criminals. We could no longer proceed toward the exit. Then, the building caught on fire, so we had to escape! Calls to our partners went unanswered. One of the criminals stuck his pistol and hands out from a corner. I saw the opportunity and shot him in the hands. My partner shot another who made the fatal mistake of sticking his head out in the same place once too often! I then told my partners to make for the door and I charged the other criminal. He panicked and fled around the corner, but I chased him down and shot him to death. I then saw a third criminal guarding the exit. I want after him too. He fled also, and the t hree of us then made good our escape. As it turns out, our two partners had already escaped ahead of us.

Lessons: When using cover (1) don't continually expose your head in the same place and (2) don't lead with your gun. More than one person got hi s hands and head shot as he stuck them around a corner!

In a group, someone has to take charge and give directions. An emergency i s no time for a "consensus."

Sometimes, rough-hewn aggressiveness is the only viable option. When belligerently charged, most people panic and default into a disorganized re treat. When they do, they are vulnerable. Victory is never risk-free!

For professional gunmen, the NTI is an event not to be missed. We're all looking forward to next year!

/John
 
SUL has one limited use.

The position has a use, but it is limited and should not be extended to uses it is not suited for.

Sul is useful for keeping a weapon in hand, in close quarters, where no threat is present. If all three of those qualifiers are not present, sul becomes a useless affectation.

Weapon in hand: Check
Close quarters: This is why the muzzle is lowered, to not cover your team mates, bystanders, family, whatever.
No threat present: If there is a threat, the muzzle had better be on the way to covering that threat. Otherwise, you'll just die looking cool

For us Average Joes, one of the main components of sul is missing. As a CCW holder, why is your pistol drawn if there is no threat?

I submit that if a serious debrief of the participants were conducted, the ready position of the actor in the scenario had absolutely nothing to do with his/her not being shot. I also think it does a serious disservive to to participants to reduce the impact of an above average level of training to "he was carrying his gun in position X".
 
1911 guy,

Beyond the arguements on the utility of the position, the question put before us was whether the position itself had any influence on not getting the role player shot.

1911 guy said: I submit that if a serious debrief of the participants were conducted, the ready position of the actor in the scenario had absolutely nothing to do with his/her not being shot. I also think it does a serious disservive to to participants to reduce the impact of an above average level of training to "he was carrying his gun in position X".


You didn't read anything I posted before you replied, did you?

I suggested body language and behavior influenced the Practitioner's decision. One part of that body launguage was how he presented the gun, and since folks will focus in on the gun, how its held factors in heavily.
 
Bullfrogken,

Thanks. I missed that AAR of Farnams.


Btw, how does one get "invited" to NTI anyhow?
 
By calling or e-mailing Skip, the director, and asking to attend. He, or his wife Sue, will walk you through what you need to do.
 
Yeah, I did read your posts.

The debrief was not thorough, the shooter said only the "armed citizen" wasn't a threat and appeared incompetent. Hardly a ringing endorsement for your favored position of the month. How are we to know that his/her use of the particular position wasn't what got them to the conclusion of incompetency? Your conclusion that body language and therefore how the handgun was held was a determining factor is not addressed anywhere by the actual participants. It is mere speculation on your part. While I do agree that body language was LIKELY a major factor, the position of a handgun has little to no effect on it's speed when being brought to bear. If judgements were made on the threat level of the "armed ctizen" based solely on "well, he didn't point it at me" then remedial training is needed before someone gets themselves hurt by ignoring a real and viable threat. Because he was carrying his handgun in the latest cool position.

I submit again that the position was misused by this particular actor. There appeared to be no immediate threat to the "armed citizen" yet he had his gun drawn. The exercise seems to have been conducted to back up a preconcieved notion. Just because Clint Smith endorses it in the latest issue of American Handgunner doesn't mean we all have to become faithful accolytes. I retain my position that for the non-leo, non-executive protection among us, it remains a relatively useless sposition.
 
I haven't read a gun magazine in over 5 years. So I have no clue what the trends they advance are nowadays.

1911 guy said: The debrief was not thorough, the shooter said only the "armed citizen" wasn't a threat and appeared incompetent.

The debriefs aren't throrough enough? I'll let guys like Brian and Paul, and other folks here who have been to an NTI speak to the thoroughness, or lack thereof, of our debriefs rather than take your word for it. Simply because I didn't feel the need to type up every question asked, and every response given doesn't mean we only asked one question.

And that shooter happened to be John Farnam, and he concluded he wasn't a threat by body language. He concluded he was incompetent after speaking to him, which he wouldn't have been able to do had he simply shot him first. Which was my point all along. Position Sul gives a Practitioner time to communicate who he is and his intentions before merely getting shot first. The debate isn't about if the position has utility, or is appropriate. It was about body language. And I assure you this wasn't the only time we've done that exercise; the responses are generally the same.

1911 guy said: If judgements were made on the threat level of the "armed ctizen" based solely on "well, he didn't point it at me" then remedial training is needed before someone gets themselves hurt by ignoring a real and viable threat.


I'll be sure to tell John Farnam he needs remedial training next week when I see him.
 
El Tejon wrote;
Yack, yack, yack--better now, SMN?

So, how do we arrive at the conclusion tacticool tactisul is the determinative factor? Were scenarios done with 3d party good guy in low ready?

Why is not indicative of the caliber of the participants? Everyone at NTI is the fraction of the one percent of gun owners, those dedicated to using their firearms as weapons, not recreational devices, right?

Does it not stand to reason that NTI participants know Rule #4? Does it not stand to reason that NTI participants know the consequences of shooting a non-target?

Why is it not software of the "operators" (I'd like to make a call) rather than the deadly cool technique?

Just my $.02, don't really know, wasn't there. Did anyone debrief the participants and ask them why?

I don't have a dog in this fight, and after a few years on this board, I've come to respect your thoughts ET. That leaves me kind of startled to read your posts in this thread, repeatedly referring to "tacticool tactisul' and similar derisive turns of speech, coming across as almost an ad hominem attack on the folk who use this technique. I'm used to you discussing the merits and failings of something in a more straightforward manner then that. For a moment, I thought I was logged into AR15.com GD.
 
1911guy,

"There appeared to be no immediate threat to the "armed citizen" yet he had his gun drawn."

He was present at an armed takeover of a business, I think that meets the requirement of an immediate threat.

tommytrauma,

SUL is a very controversial technique.

This is the thread that will not die.

Dave Williams:)
 
I must admit, Dave, it were me that resurrected it . . .

Someone else linked to it on a related topic, and I took the time to read through the banter, conjecture and speculation. After about 3, "We'll never know; none of us were there to ask all the others why they didn't shoot him," I felt compelled to weigh in.
 
1911guy,

"There appeared to be no immediate threat to the "armed citizen" yet he had his gun drawn."

He was present at an armed takeover of a business, I think that meets the requirement of an immediate threat.

tommytrauma,

SUL is a very controversial technique.

This is the thread that will not die.

Controversial indeed. I just remember the explanation behind the name 'The High Road'. Hate to see that idea lost over a discussion about how to hold a pistol.
 
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