FPrice
Member
You are correct. And I think the SOP is the same for any dynamic entry team. If it has a gun/weapon, shoot it.
The One Huge Advantage of Position SUL
- Thread starter Dave Williams
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You are correct. And I think the SOP is the same for any dynamic entry team. If it has a gun/weapon, shoot it.
thereisnospoon
Member
SUL or SOL
I think if I was a participant in the exercise, my decision to shoot/not shoot would have been based on his actions with the pistol, not how he was holdong it. Had he made any threatening gestures he'd a been S.O.L. with S.U.L. gun...
Did anyone engage this "good guy" verbally with stop commands?
Without knowing the entire scenario ,it is hard to judge if the guy was allowed to go "unscathed" was because of his gun position.
just my $0.03
I think if I was a participant in the exercise, my decision to shoot/not shoot would have been based on his actions with the pistol, not how he was holdong it. Had he made any threatening gestures he'd a been S.O.L. with S.U.L. gun...
Did anyone engage this "good guy" verbally with stop commands?
Without knowing the entire scenario ,it is hard to judge if the guy was allowed to go "unscathed" was because of his gun position.just my $0.03
Sul (Sual)
Has a place in your "bag", as a means to move into, through, near or retreating to cover, when there are friendlies involved. To ridicule any technique, with out realizing, that a value (use) may be there, is dangerous. Some of your reasons for not employing sul, with in your handling procedures, borders on hilarous, some one rather be pointing a firearm at others, then toward the floor in front of your body. The Sul at no time ,when used as intended, has the firearm pointing at your own body. Any protrayal of it doing so was an attempt by someone who disagrees with it's usefulness to disparge.
Strange that most training involves rushing into a fight and hardly any has you moving to cover, while amongst friendly non-threats. Just how does one move at low/high ready without sweeping the non-threats, especially while checking your 360? Each to his own mind and techniques. Forget the "Cool" aspect and employ what works, if it does in your world.
Has a place in your "bag", as a means to move into, through, near or retreating to cover, when there are friendlies involved. To ridicule any technique, with out realizing, that a value (use) may be there, is dangerous. Some of your reasons for not employing sul, with in your handling procedures, borders on hilarous, some one rather be pointing a firearm at others, then toward the floor in front of your body. The Sul at no time ,when used as intended, has the firearm pointing at your own body. Any protrayal of it doing so was an attempt by someone who disagrees with it's usefulness to disparge.
Strange that most training involves rushing into a fight and hardly any has you moving to cover, while amongst friendly non-threats. Just how does one move at low/high ready without sweeping the non-threats, especially while checking your 360? Each to his own mind and techniques. Forget the "Cool" aspect and employ what works, if it does in your world.
What do y'all consider "SIGNIFICANTLY faster". Tenth of a second?
1. Clearly false.
2. Almost certainly false. This position makes sense in a team situation, however, you're going to be pointing at your own feet and possibly legs at least some of the time if you're moving around. Why do that if there's no reason to?
3. Depends on how "significantly" is defined.
4. Clearly false.
A non-LEO is almost certainly better served by leaving the firearm holstered until it is needed and then pointing it at the threat after that. Pulling a firearm when there's no-one to point it at yet is not a good idea at all for a non-military/non-LEO gun carrier, due in no small part to the dilemma of deciding where to point it. Pointing it so that you get your own body parts in front of it some of the time is not a solution, IMO.
1. Clearly false.
2. Almost certainly false. This position makes sense in a team situation, however, you're going to be pointing at your own feet and possibly legs at least some of the time if you're moving around. Why do that if there's no reason to?
3. Depends on how "significantly" is defined.
4. Clearly false.
A non-LEO is almost certainly better served by leaving the firearm holstered until it is needed and then pointing it at the threat after that. Pulling a firearm when there's no-one to point it at yet is not a good idea at all for a non-military/non-LEO gun carrier, due in no small part to the dilemma of deciding where to point it. Pointing it so that you get your own body parts in front of it some of the time is not a solution, IMO.
brownie0486
Member
Geesh,
Over on another forum who think they are all operators/warriors, though civilians for the most part, they embrce SUL like hot sliced bread.
I see over here there are more reasonable responses and thought processes going on, thank goodness.
Robin Brown
Over on another forum who think they are all operators/warriors, though civilians for the most part, they embrce SUL like hot sliced bread.
I see over here there are more reasonable responses and thought processes going on, thank goodness.
Robin Brown
Island Beretta
Member
One thing this says is that the participants in the FOF training needs to be more aware..this is actually a serious issue in combat as one has the tendency to become fixated on the immediate or perceived threat..we train out of this by practicing deliberately doing scans of the environment..even whilst keeping the enemy in our visual frame..
sacp81170a
Member
GREAT big problem with Sul, at least in the Great State of Arkansas. Last year the legislature made the offense of "Brandishing a Weapon" the equivalent of Aggravated Assault, IOW, a felony. If you need to draw your weapon, you had better be damn sure you need to use it in this state. If you draw your weapon and go to Sul, that means you didn't need to use it right away. If you put it back without using it, you didn't have justification to draw in the first place and so may be found guilty of a felony. Not gonna happen for me, no matter how tacticool all the specops-ninja-seal wannabes think it might be to run around with a drawn weapon looking for cover or clearing houses.
This "I draw it, I'm gonna fire it" stuff doesn't make sense to me.
If I am in a situation that calls for the use of deadly force, then I may use deadly force up until the point that the threat is gone. That is, for example, I can't shoot at a fleeing ex-threat, nor continue shooting after the threat has become an ex-threat. So, ... If I deploy a pistol, and if that deployment is sufficient in itself to stop the threat, then I have used the appropriate amount of force to stop the threat, no more, no less.
To fire solely because I have drawn is irrational and irresponsible if drawing removes the threat.
Meanwhile, ... I hadn't heard of this position before reading this thread, so I tried it. I like it. It's an easy rest and ready position with a very fast trasition to firing position. And I didn't sweep any parts of myself.
If I am in a situation that calls for the use of deadly force, then I may use deadly force up until the point that the threat is gone. That is, for example, I can't shoot at a fleeing ex-threat, nor continue shooting after the threat has become an ex-threat. So, ... If I deploy a pistol, and if that deployment is sufficient in itself to stop the threat, then I have used the appropriate amount of force to stop the threat, no more, no less.
To fire solely because I have drawn is irrational and irresponsible if drawing removes the threat.
Meanwhile, ... I hadn't heard of this position before reading this thread, so I tried it. I like it. It's an easy rest and ready position with a very fast trasition to firing position. And I didn't sweep any parts of myself.
sacp81170a
Member
Infidel:
"This "I draw it, I'm gonna fire it" stuff doesn't make sense to me."
IANAL, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night.
That's not what I meant to imply, just that with the change in law in Arkansas, displaying a firearm is defined as aggravated assault under certain circumstances:
5-13-204. Aggravated assault.
(a) A person commits aggravated assault if under circumstances manifesting extreme indifference to the value of human life, he or she purposely:
(1) Engages in conduct that creates a substantial danger of death or serious physical injury to another person; or
(2) Displays a firearm in such a manner that creates a substantial danger of death or serious physical injury to another person.
(b) Aggravated assault is a Class D felony.
(c) The provisions of this section do not apply to:
(1) A law enforcement officer acting within the scope of his or her duty; or
(2) Any person acting in self-defense or the defense of a third party.
The problem with drawing a firearm in front of witnesses is that you very likely will be charged with a felony if it isn't a clear cut case of self-defense. The Sul position might very well get you charged. My contention is that if you have time to draw, go to Sul, and seek cover, you *might* be judged to have had time to escape or withdraw from the situation. I'm not saying that "if I draw it I'm gonna use it," I'm saying that "if I draw it, I'm gonna do it in such a manner and under such circumstances that I *really* needed to." For me, it's a judgement call based on an awareness of the statutes (not claiming any expertise here). Sul position seems to me to be more prone to a felony charge(in my state) which is sufficiently serious to lose me my CCW and my right to own weapons. Don't blame me for being cautious about what I see as a legally risky technique that might only be useful in a few circumstances.
I don't agree with the legislature at all in this regard, but that's the law here and I'd be a fool not to recognize that. If using the technique doesn't risk felony charges in your state, knock yourself out, use what works.
"This "I draw it, I'm gonna fire it" stuff doesn't make sense to me."
IANAL, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night.
That's not what I meant to imply, just that with the change in law in Arkansas, displaying a firearm is defined as aggravated assault under certain circumstances:5-13-204. Aggravated assault.
(a) A person commits aggravated assault if under circumstances manifesting extreme indifference to the value of human life, he or she purposely:
(1) Engages in conduct that creates a substantial danger of death or serious physical injury to another person; or
(2) Displays a firearm in such a manner that creates a substantial danger of death or serious physical injury to another person.
(b) Aggravated assault is a Class D felony.
(c) The provisions of this section do not apply to:
(1) A law enforcement officer acting within the scope of his or her duty; or
(2) Any person acting in self-defense or the defense of a third party.
The problem with drawing a firearm in front of witnesses is that you very likely will be charged with a felony if it isn't a clear cut case of self-defense. The Sul position might very well get you charged. My contention is that if you have time to draw, go to Sul, and seek cover, you *might* be judged to have had time to escape or withdraw from the situation. I'm not saying that "if I draw it I'm gonna use it," I'm saying that "if I draw it, I'm gonna do it in such a manner and under such circumstances that I *really* needed to." For me, it's a judgement call based on an awareness of the statutes (not claiming any expertise here). Sul position seems to me to be more prone to a felony charge(in my state) which is sufficiently serious to lose me my CCW and my right to own weapons. Don't blame me for being cautious about what I see as a legally risky technique that might only be useful in a few circumstances.
I don't agree with the legislature at all in this regard, but that's the law here and I'd be a fool not to recognize that. If using the technique doesn't risk felony charges in your state, knock yourself out, use what works.
Tain't that at all. It's "I didn't really need to draw it yet, but I've got it out now and don't know where to point it." THAT'S the problem.
If you're on an entry team or gearing up for a confrontation, it makes sense to have your gun out, and it makes sense to carry it in a manner that reduces the chances of sweeping a team-mate.
If you're a CCW'er then you'd be best served by NOT hauling out your gun until you NEED it. I'm not saying that you have to wait until the very last minute to whip it out, but drawing too soon (too soon means before you have a threat to point at) puts you in the precarious situation of trying to figure out where to point your gun. UNTIL you have something to point your gun at, you'd be FAR better served by leaving it holstered.
I can't see how a person can move around with any semblance of normalcy and not have the gun pointing at his own legs and feet at least some of the time. If you point it far enough forward to avoid that, you'll be pointing at the guy in front of you and the whole "point" of the position will be moot.
FedGunner
Member
Ok... I've been watching this for a while.....
Sul does not replace low ready.
Low ready is useful in the extreme.
Sul is a very good tool to use during movement, and in close "stacked" situations.
Sul has a great advantage in keeping the muzzle safe in many situations that low ready does not.
I use Sul with handgun, carbine and shotgun. They all share the same characteristic. They keep the muzzle safe before transition to low ready or ready to fire. It is faster than holstered or slinged.
There's my 2 cents.
Sul does not replace low ready.
Low ready is useful in the extreme.
Sul is a very good tool to use during movement, and in close "stacked" situations.
Sul has a great advantage in keeping the muzzle safe in many situations that low ready does not.
I use Sul with handgun, carbine and shotgun. They all share the same characteristic. They keep the muzzle safe before transition to low ready or ready to fire. It is faster than holstered or slinged.
There's my 2 cents.
JohnKSa ~
I suppose if you always have a holster on, that's a valid enough point. Of course, I don't wear my holster to bed, and if there's a bump in the night and I need to get to where my children are, I'm taking the gun with me. How shall I carry it?
Then, too, what if you just shot a BG. It's not yet time to put the gun away (the police haven't arrived yet), and your arms are tired, shaking from the effort of holding the gun out, etc. You don't know how much longer the police are going to be, your arms feel like they're about to fall off, the guy is apparently unconscious (or you've got him in prone and his head is turned away). How can you relax your arms without giving up reaction time in case you need to shoot again?
As for pointing at your feet & legs in sul, that's kind of like the "you'll point at your dangly bits!" objection. When done properly, sul does not point the gun at any body part. I've got a CT laser grip on my gun, and believe me, I checked out the position very carefully with an unloaded gun & the laser on. I stood, walked, trotted, and then ran with the gun held in sul, and watched the laser dot closely while doing all that. It never touched any body parts.
*shrug* If it doesn't work for you, don't do it.
pax
I suppose if you always have a holster on, that's a valid enough point. Of course, I don't wear my holster to bed, and if there's a bump in the night and I need to get to where my children are, I'm taking the gun with me. How shall I carry it?
Then, too, what if you just shot a BG. It's not yet time to put the gun away (the police haven't arrived yet), and your arms are tired, shaking from the effort of holding the gun out, etc. You don't know how much longer the police are going to be, your arms feel like they're about to fall off, the guy is apparently unconscious (or you've got him in prone and his head is turned away). How can you relax your arms without giving up reaction time in case you need to shoot again?
As for pointing at your feet & legs in sul, that's kind of like the "you'll point at your dangly bits!" objection. When done properly, sul does not point the gun at any body part. I've got a CT laser grip on my gun, and believe me, I checked out the position very carefully with an unloaded gun & the laser on. I stood, walked, trotted, and then ran with the gun held in sul, and watched the laser dot closely while doing all that. It never touched any body parts.
*shrug* If it doesn't work for you, don't do it.
pax
Well, this was sort of about pulling your gun out or carrying your gun around unholstered in public, so I hadn't really tried to pull it apart for a homeowner situation.
As far as I can see, this position offers nothing over what's already out there, unless you're going into a situation where you're going to have a good guy directly in front of you and you need to have an unholstered gun.
Maybe my wrists aren't as flexible as they should be, but the position I have to maintain to keep the gun pointed so as to not endanger my feet makes it pretty awkward. If a person can maintain the position comfortably without sweeping body parts, I can't see a reason NOT to do it as a substitute for a holster when one is not available. IMO, once you have a reason to unholster your gun, you have a reason to point it somewhere other than the ground.
I don't know of anyone who does. But then, that's not a new development, so I figure that what people have done for the many years before SUL was invented will probably serve you pretty well. What does it gain you over low ready in a case like that?
If the threat remains you have something to point at. If you CAN'T point the gun any longer then you can point it anywhere safe, I guess. Just like you would in any other situation... Are you saying that you find SUL to require noticeably less effort to maintain than low ready position? I find it quite awkward, particularly if I twist my right wrist around so that the gun isn't pointing at my left foot when I walk.
As far as I can see, this position offers nothing over what's already out there, unless you're going into a situation where you're going to have a good guy directly in front of you and you need to have an unholstered gun.
Maybe my wrists aren't as flexible as they should be, but the position I have to maintain to keep the gun pointed so as to not endanger my feet makes it pretty awkward. If a person can maintain the position comfortably without sweeping body parts, I can't see a reason NOT to do it as a substitute for a holster when one is not available. IMO, once you have a reason to unholster your gun, you have a reason to point it somewhere other than the ground.
It absolutely prevents me from pointing the gun at my three-foot high children unless they bump into my legs in the dark. In low ready, the circle of danger is a lot bigger, especially if there's a short little people nearby.
Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying.
Agreed.
pax
Seems like people, including me, are talking all around each other. Sorry.
I don't think that I would perceive a person carrying a pistol in "sul" any less of a threat than with the pistol in any other position other than pointed straight at me. I have some skepticism about the inference that carrying in that particular position would keep me from getting shot in a "situation".
But I like the position,-- just the little part about keeping this knuckle in contact with that knuckle, and it's a quick and easy transition to/from shooting position or traditional retention position. At the same time, my arms are resting and take up less space while walking around, and the muzzle is controlled in a generally safe direction.
I like it. Thanks for the lesson.
I don't think that I would perceive a person carrying a pistol in "sul" any less of a threat than with the pistol in any other position other than pointed straight at me. I have some skepticism about the inference that carrying in that particular position would keep me from getting shot in a "situation".
But I like the position,-- just the little part about keeping this knuckle in contact with that knuckle, and it's a quick and easy transition to/from shooting position or traditional retention position. At the same time, my arms are resting and take up less space while walking around, and the muzzle is controlled in a generally safe direction.
I like it. Thanks for the lesson.
JohnKSa ~
The kids' bedroom is upstairs, mine is downstairs. Pointing upwards is not an option.
I like sul. I don't like it because I'm some super-studly ninja or wannabe operator, but simply because it comfortably and adequately meets my needs in certain foreseeable situations.
pax
The kids' bedroom is upstairs, mine is downstairs. Pointing upwards is not an option.
I like sul. I don't like it because I'm some super-studly ninja or wannabe operator, but simply because it comfortably and adequately meets my needs in certain foreseeable situations.
pax
Mute
Member
No one is saying anyone should HAVE to use one method or another. SUL is another tool in the box that, IMHO, has some benefits. It's not meant to replace low ready, nor, do I believe, anyone here is advocating that it's meant to do so. If you're not comfortable with a particular technique, then you definitely should not use it just because someone thinks it's the best, ultra-cool, tacticalness.
Before dismissing a technique though, one should research it. And perhaps learn about it from someone who is teaching its proper use. There seems to be a great deal of misinformation here on how SUL can be used and when.
Before dismissing a technique though, one should research it. And perhaps learn about it from someone who is teaching its proper use. There seems to be a great deal of misinformation here on how SUL can be used and when.
FPrice
Member
Mute...
AMEN BROTHER!
AMEN BROTHER!
ShackleMeNot
Member
How many of the Sul detractors here have actually been TRAINED in its proper use? I’m not talking about just reading some straw man attack in a magazine article or a post by some "anti-tactical" blowhard on a message board, but actual INSTRUCTION in how and when to properly use Sul...
If you have had professional instruction in the proper positioning and use of Sul and you still decide it isn't for you than that's an educated choice you have made. If all you know of Sul is the straw man that is attacked by its critics you should seek out professional instruction on Sul and then you can give it an honest evaluation.
I like Sul for another reason not yet mentioned in this thread.
Sul has become a good litmus test for me of who gets that there's a 360 degree real world beyond the static range and who doesn't.
If you have had professional instruction in the proper positioning and use of Sul and you still decide it isn't for you than that's an educated choice you have made. If all you know of Sul is the straw man that is attacked by its critics you should seek out professional instruction on Sul and then you can give it an honest evaluation.
I like Sul for another reason not yet mentioned in this thread.
Sul has become a good litmus test for me of who gets that there's a 360 degree real world beyond the static range and who doesn't.
Paul Gomez
Member In Memoriam
Are there ways to accomplish the goal of Sul without utilizing Sul?
Absolutely.
Does the adequately trained individual need some technique(s) to allow him to move in 360-degrees without covering nonthreats with the muzzle?
I think so.
Do techniques need to be trained rigorously, with committed aggressors, in realistic scenarios?
I'd say so.
Does the pontification of internet experts have any effect on the reality of the suitability of a given technique?
I don't think so.
Absolutely.
Does the adequately trained individual need some technique(s) to allow him to move in 360-degrees without covering nonthreats with the muzzle?
I think so.
Do techniques need to be trained rigorously, with committed aggressors, in realistic scenarios?
I'd say so.
Does the pontification of internet experts have any effect on the reality of the suitability of a given technique?
I don't think so.
I think we've drifted a bit off topic. The first post was about how the role player at NTI who used SUL wasn't engaged by any of the shooters. NOT about if SUL is a good position to use.
I'm still waiting to find out why the shooters didn't engage the role player. His use of SUL may not have had anything to do with it. I don't think we can take this one incident and state that if you need to have your weapon in hand, that the use of position SUL will guarantee you aren't shot in a blue on blue engagement.
Jeff
I'm still waiting to find out why the shooters didn't engage the role player. His use of SUL may not have had anything to do with it. I don't think we can take this one incident and state that if you need to have your weapon in hand, that the use of position SUL will guarantee you aren't shot in a blue on blue engagement.
Jeff
Paul Gomez
Member In Memoriam
Not having hung around the resturant long enough to have to deal with other armed persons, I cannot address the particulars of his use of Sul.
I can state that several people commented on his having not pointed a gun at them and not being aggressive [not neccessarily one and the same, granted] as key to his not being shot.
I can state that several people commented on his having not pointed a gun at them and not being aggressive [not neccessarily one and the same, granted] as key to his not being shot.
FPrice
Member
Jeff...
Jeff -
Jeff, respectfully I think you are mistaken here, at least as far as drifting off topic.
Dave -
Even though the first post did make a big point about the incident at the NTI, the specific question, as listed above, begs a detailed discussion of position SUL and if it is a good position for a civilian to use during an LE response.
Jeff -
Jeff, respectfully I think you are mistaken here, at least as far as drifting off topic.
Dave -
Even though the first post did make a big point about the incident at the NTI, the specific question, as listed above, begs a detailed discussion of position SUL and if it is a good position for a civilian to use during an LE response.
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