My Point Shooting Video

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Hope it is OK to post this.
http://www.paladin-press.com/product/Shoot_Him_To_The_Ground/Handguns
7677--Tom--plays a major role.
Many thanks for his assistance with the DVD and for the past 6 years of our friendship.

Here is the lesson plan that we used as a "script:


Modern Point Shooting
Many are critical of the Applegate/Fairbairn approach, since it ignores much of what is being taught today.
While that is open to debate, it finally dawned on me that it makes no sense to teach point shooting via a method that turns off those who I am trying to convince.
After teaching at a 2005 IALEFI ATC--and reading the class review notes-- I realized that point shooting is a concept--a concept which can work hand in hand with the modern approach to combat shooting.
Hence the new outline which I now use:
( It is also the format that I used in my video)

TACTICAL POINT SHOOTING
.

1) Explain how point shooting is nothing more than a concept.
The concept of placing a burst of bullets--from any angle and position--into the exact spot that one’s eyes are focused upon. This also may eventually lead to the more descriptive title of Target or Threat Focused Shooting.
Give a brief history of Fairbairn/Applegate/Sykes, etc so as to show its proven track record. But also explain that we are going to blend this with some of the more conventional shooting concepts as well as using point shooting with the SOP shooting methods employed by tactical teams…such as two handed shooting, the use of SUL, compressed ready and from the holster. Also stress that point shooting is meant to compliment--NOT REPLACE--sighted shooting skills.

2) Aimed Fire Drills.
Have students start at about 7 yards with two handed aimed fire from whatever low ready position they prefer. Have them aim for the upper chest.
Have them shoot in two round bursts on each blow of the whistle, doing a speed reload when necessary.
Have them reload and holster after running through two magazines.

3) HOLSTER DRILL.
Repeat the drill from the holster at about 5 yards.
On each blow of the whistle have them come up to a two handed aimed fire position and shoot two rounds.

4) Two Handed Point Shooting Drills.

Begin from low ready while in the square stance. Have them focus on a dot/letter/circle in the COM area.
On the whistle have them come up and fire one shot. Explain the need for a slight pause both before and after the shot. If necessary have them count to three before coming back down to low ready.
Repeat until empty.
Show the hits on the targets and ask them if there is a big accuracy difference between aimed and point shooting? Actually they will probably be in the same group area.
Now repeat the drill with two shot bursts. Explain that there is no need for resetting the trigger, looking for the sights, hammer, etc.
All one needs to do is focus on the spot one wishes to hit, grip the handgun tightly and fire the shots as fast as one can pull the trigger.
After one or two magazines have them repeat the drill with one foot forward, with the back heel raised.
Explain that one will normally be shooting with one foot forward and show why having at least one heel raised aids in movement and aggression.
Finish up drill with some 3-6 round bursts.
Then repeat the drills with the weak foot forward.

5) Explain the importance of shooting while moving in.
Have them shoot while moving in and then backwards, starting at the 7 yard line.
Repeat drill from the students favored ready position.

6) Body/Head drill.
Explain how the hands follow the eyes. Show how to make head shots by just changing your focus from the chest to the head.
Do it stationary from the 5 yard line, then while on the move from the 7 yard line. Also mention the advantages of focusing on the open mouth when making head shots ( Vital spot, gives some leeway for the shot going slightly high/low and how it was/is used by the S.A.S.)

7) SUL.
Ask how many use SUL during SWAT training/work.
Go over how it was used by the SAS--and why--long before it was ever given a name. Explain it’s strong points--allowing large numbers of officers to move while in close proximity, easy to run quickly when so held, weapon retention and very hard for the officer to put his finger on the trigger until on target, etc..
Practice two handed point shooting from Sul from about 5 yards. Drill should first done standing and then in motion.

8) Explain Eric Haney’s background in Delta Force and why they trained to shoot for the upper chest. Then show the failure to stop drill…chest-jugular notch-head in a rapid fire non stop motion.

9)) Multiples.
Show the standard stand and deliver method and its shortcomings.
Then explain how we move into each target for each bad guy--which is especially useful in a tactical team environment. Do drills from low ready, SUL and whatever ready position they feel most comfortable with.

10) Pivot Shots.
Explain how there are no set methods of footwork when engaging targets from the flanks. The concept--turn the body while raising the gun and firing when the eyes lock on the target--is the important thing.
Have them practice with just fingers to get a feel of the motions. Show how turning and shooting while moving in greatly enhances accuracy.
Do live fire drills from low/preferred/SUL while line is facing the targets at a 45 degree angle.

11) In Quartata Drill.
Moving backwards at a 45 degree angle.
key is to bring the left foot behind the right when going to the right and vice versa when going to the left.

12) Marching Drill.
This is both an excellent drill as well as the simplest method of teaching pivot/angle shots. The real key is to move in after the first shot (or ASAP) which tends to improve accuracy and lends itself to the aggressive spirit.
Show how sometimes we blow the whistle with the left foot forward, other times with the right foot forward and how to create stress by making it unpredictable as to when the whistle will blow.
Let them mix up regarding ready positions so as to allow all three…low/preferred/SUL…ready positions during the drill.

13) Explain the limitations of two handed shooting, such as locking up the body while doing a search, exposing too much when using cover, difficulty in disarming and that much police work involves using the off hand to hold a radio, flashlight, etc, etc.
Show how to make a firm one hand grip and then teach the basic one handed Fairbairn/Applegate drill.
Follow up by repeating drill # 5 with one hand.

14) Show how to do a one handed draw stroke into point shoulder position.

15) Talk about the importance of hip shooting and first show how to do it from the Appleagate low ready position. Also show how this can be done from SUL
Then demo elbow up/elbow down. Show how a zipper and head shots can be made from the half hip shooting position. Also show how multiple targets can easily be engaged from this position.

15) Shooting through the Draw Stroke.
Teach rapid firing from half hip and zippering up head shots are being made from point shoulder.

16) Retention Shooting.
Show various options and why this course will teach the 90 degree method.

17) Moving In All Directions.
Start out by moving right side I.Q. and going back-forward-left I.Q.-forward until pistol runs dry. Make sure that all shooting is being without a pause.
Then practice the “putting it all together drill” Start by striking the target and moving backwards, shooting from close hip until head shots are being made via point shoulder.

18) S and Figure 8 Drill.
Explain these drills importance and have students do them from a variety of ready positions or from the holster.

 
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Thanks.
I wish I could have seen the finished product before it was released, because I would have suggested a few changes in both a few words and in some of the drills.
Nothing major, but some minor changes nontheless.
Then again, having me fly back out to Boulder to make about 90 seconds of re filming would have been out of the question.
We do have several other products under contract so I'll try to make them then.
 
Just so everyone that reads this dosen't think that i am just a nay sayer, and don't know about this and similar systems, i do. I have trained with Rob Pincus of I.C.E and i know and understand the need, uses and advantages of "Combat Focused Shooting", both "aimed", "indexed" and "unaimed" fire.

I have not seen the video and i do not care too, reading your "script" has given me enough info.

Target or Threat Focused Shooting
Combat Focused Shooting, sounds like a good name.

On each blow of the whistle
why is a whistle blow used to start a drill? how about a command that re enforces the "fighting" midset, or atleast some form of the defensive mindset at least.

low ready, SUL and whatever ready position they feel most comfortable with.
i read a lack of consistancy. by low ready do you mean the gun is pointed down at the ground arms extended and at approx a 45 degree angle? if so this is futher inconsistant as well, the last movement of the gun before firing should be out not "swung" up or down, left or right. there is no bio mechanical stop to "swinging" the gun in any dirrection. however there is a bio mechanical stop that is the same everytime by pushing out the gun form the compressed ready. when your arms are locked, that is the bio mechanical stop, and it is consistant because it is the same each and everytime.

Eric Haney’s background in Delta Force
you are not training CAG or SAS even though you make several references to them. they have a very different mission set, skill set and ability to apply thier skill set as compared to a person who carries for defense, a soldier, and or a police officer etc. The head shot should be a last ditch effort in the context of personal defense. after there is no other option. why? the head is a small target and i don't know how many times anyone here has been in a fire fight of any sort, but the head doesn't stay stationary. and staying in the context of a self defense role, more than likely there is gonna be inocent by standards around when you get into an altercation with a great posibility of low light and or no light conditions. you are responsible for every round that leaves the gun. i believe a better approch and the way i train and train my men is to go for the chest 4-6 rds, if for some reason this doesn't get the desired effects on target, move to the pelvis. There is some nasty stuff that runs through that part of the body, as well, you hit the trunk and the tree will fall. he/ she may not be dead, however in staying with the personal defense context you are trying to stop the bad guy from possing a lethal threat not kill them. the pelvis region is about the same width as the chest.

Explain the limitations of two handed shooting, such as locking up the body while doing a search, exposing too much when using cover,
if the technique of use of cover is taught properly by the instructor, and trained right by the student, there is absolutly nothing wrong with or any way that you are gonna expose so much of your body as you make it seem. I teach the "pie" technique, lean out as far as you can, a combonation of side steps and lean until you are in a position to put rounds on target without exposing more of your body than you need too.

Then practice the “putting it all together drill” Start by striking the target and moving backwards, shooting from close hip until head shots are being made via point shoulder

if i am moving away from the target i am gonna do so far enough that is 2 arms distance or more from the bad guy, also known as, out of gun grab range, at this distance i am gonna bring the gun atleast between my line of sight and the target, i am not gonna try to do any shooting form the hip and or the shoulder position.

Explain the need for a slight pause both before and after the shot.
why would i pause before i take the shot, if i have already went through the O.O.D.A loop and i am on the ACT phase, i am gonna bring the gun up, pause and then shoot, giving the enemy more time to react and put rounds on me? or is the pause because you are "swinging" from the low ready and you need that pause to make sure you are good? for me there is no pausing, hesitation is what we call that and that is what gets people killed.
 
i might be missing something or I am just plain dopey, I don't know about anyone else but I am not going to move forward in a gun fight like depicted in the clip. I am either moving backwards, sideways or going for cover. Not walking into a BG pointing a gun at me much less two guys pointing a gun at me. I thought the whole purpose of defense was to move out of the line of fire not step into it.
Call me crazy, but I think the whole clip was a demonstration of what not to do.
 
gilfo,
you are correct. in the context of self defense there is very few possibilites/ reasons to move foward in an "offensive" manner. in the military and or active shooter context that might be different. in which case taking the fight to the enemy is the best thing/ the only thing you can do. with a defense shooter, this is not so much the case. by moving foward to the enemy you are making yourself an easier target, moving backwards, and or at angles away from the bad guy is a good course of action most noteably if seeking cover. side stepping off the line of attack is what i train and what i train my men on. moving latterally does effect not only your enemies O.O.D.A loop but thier ability to hit you as well, much more so than moving toward them for sure, and moving backwards. if there is no cover to be had, i am gonna continue to move latterally and put accurate rounds on target until the threat is no longer possing a lethal threat to me.
 
I don't know fellas. I think there could be a time or situation when moving forward might be a good idea. It might be the only way out of the hole you've found yourself in.


Take the drill for what it is and learn from it. Keep what you like and discard the rest.
 
Possum,

You made some good points. I am not a fan of the point shooting method, period. There is no mistaking that by my posts on this board. I do understand contact and retention range shooting, and present those techniques to my students in depth, but too many confuse that with point shooting.

Apparently, and I did view the clip, Mr. Temkin confuses the two as well. They are distinctly different.

You're better off having not watched the clip. That is five minutes of my life that I will never get back.

I am in no way against views that are opposed to my own, even when I strongly hold an alternate view and assert the same. However, I for one do not like the same posts over and over under the guise of discussion when it is obvious that someone is simply promoting themselves and using the forum for personal gain rather than the gain of all who frequent this forum. A quick check showed that at least 65 of Mr. Temkin's last 75 posts have been point shooting related. I think we can all now agree where he stands on the issue. By all means Mr. Temkin, please continue to post. It would be nice to see something besides point shooting in your bag of tricks. I really do appreciate the input of all as much as the next guy. It's just getting to sound a little self righteous.
 
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Thanks for all of the kind words, gents.
Jscott--you may be interested in learning that 7677 ( someone who you are on the record as being on the "same page")--has a major part in the DVD and is shooting many of the demos.
Anyway, in the interests of further self promotion here is a podcast that I did with Paladin:
http://www.paladinpodcast.com/
 
Matthew could you answer some of my questions from my post above?, or a rebutal maybe. i am interested in your methodoligies and understanding them not how or what you do but why.
 
Matt,
In regards to a single post that he made on another thread I indeed said that my line of thinking appeared to be on the same page as 7677. Don't take my words in one thread and extrapolate them to mean that I am a follower nor admirer of 7677. I don't even know who he is. Beyond one or two posts that he made I don't know his stance nor teaching methodologies. He is your hero. That does not mean he is mine.

I often agree with someone that in other areas I would strongly disagree with. I also disagree on occasion with others that I strongly agree with in most areas. Is that concept lost with you?

I don't care if my top 10 favorite heros of all time worked on your video. I observed the clip and it is apparent that in the first 30 seconds of the video (after the minute or so of intro) that you have a hard time finding your holster. It also appears that you pointed, albeit a red gun, at yourself at least twice in the clip. Your weapon handling skills and presentation of material appeared to be very novice at best. I'm sorry if that hurts your feelings but I believe that it is worth addressing since you hold yourself out as an expert.

Possum made some very valid points. My guess is that I don't agree with Possum on everything either. I do appreciate his input, as I do yours believe it or not. Teachings that conflict with my own cause me to either rethink my current view or become an even stronger proponent for my current curriculum. Either way, my students are served in the best possible manner that I can.

Rather than attacking your naysayers, perhaps you could actually address the concerns of those that have a conflicting view with you. I believe Possum had some concerns.?.?
 
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I practice point shooting, or whatever one wants to call it. As far as the video, I don't care for the weapon being so far from ones body in a close encounter, nor leaning too far from your center of mass.

You move in whatever direction is needed. In a fluid situation, you must keep your feet moving and your base in an athletic position. The minute your feet stop moving, your in trouble. The bottom half is extremely important, because the top half can not perform if the bottom half is out of place.

There is an old saying among baseball coaches. "Baseball is watched from the waist up, but it is played from the waist down". Same thing. AC
 
One thing that is often not considered when talking about moving closer to your opponent in a gunfight is that it is much easier to track a target laterally from 10 yards away than from 1 yard--that is, say you take a 1-yard step to the right when your opponent is pointing his gun at you from 10 yards away. If my math is right, your opponent has to swing his gun 6 degrees to point it at you again. At 1 yard, however, he has to swing it 45 degrees--that will obviously take longer. It's just another variable to consider.

Moving directly at your attacker probably makes little sense if there are other options, but I'm thinking it'd be better than nothing if you were, say, at the end of a dead-end hallway at the start of the attack.

As far as point shooting, I don't really see how people can say 'I don't like it.'. I mean, it's a tool. Bringing your gun to eye level and verifying your sight alignment will take some time, right? So how could point shooting (where you do neither of those) not be faster? Less accurate? Sure, but sometimes you don't need that accuracy. Sometimes. If you need more precision at the cost of speed, that's what the sights are for.

Whenever someone says 'You should never use point shooting' or 'Sighted fire is irrelevant because I can point shoot so well', or anything like that, I just remember the line 'Basic training--always, never. Advanced training--sometimes, maybe.'
 
Combat Focused Shooting, sounds like a good name.

Combat Focus is a term coined by Rob Pincus.
While Rob runs an excellent program--and I plan on sharing some range time with Rob when we are both teaching at Wes Doss's conference(http://www.warrior-conference.com/) this summer--- the things covered in my video have been around since before WW One.
Yes, certain parts of Combat Focus are identical to the basic Applegate drills, but why use a modern term to describe an
older system?


low ready, SUL and whatever ready position they feel most comfortable with.
i read a lack of consistancy. by low ready do you mean the gun is pointed down at the ground arms extended and at approx a 45 degree angle? if so this is futher inconsistant as well, the last movement of the gun before firing should be out not "swung" up or down, left or right. there is no bio mechanical stop to "swinging" the gun in any dirrection. however there is a bio mechanical stop that is the same everytime by pushing out the gun form the compressed ready. when your arms are locked, that is the bio mechanical stop, and it is consistant because it is the same each and everytime.


There are many ready positions in use by the military and police.
My goal was to show that point shooting will work with them all.
I leave it to others to debate which position is "The Best."


Eric Haney’s background in Delta Force
you are not training CAG or SAS even though you make several references to them. they have a very different mission set, skill set and ability to apply thier skill set as compared to a person who carries for defense, a soldier, and or a police officer etc. The head shot should be a last ditch effort in the context of personal defense. after there is no other option. why? the head is a small target and i don't know how many times anyone here has been in a fire fight of any sort, but the head doesn't stay stationary. and staying in the context of a self defense role, more than likely there is gonna be inocent by standards around when you get into an altercation with a great posibility of low light and or no light conditions. you are responsible for every round that leaves the gun. i believe a better approch and the way i train and train my men is to go for the chest 4-6 rds, if for some reason this doesn't get the desired effects on target, move to the pelvis. There is some nasty stuff that runs through that part of the body, as well, you hit the trunk and the tree will fall. he/ she may not be dead, however in staying with the personal defense context you are trying to stop the bad guy from possing a lethal threat not kill them. the pelvis region is about the same width as the chest.

I use Haney's method as an alternative to the head shot.
There is some controversy as to the effectiveness of the pelvic girdle as a "failure to stop" target.
Then again, you can use point shooting to shoot him in the pelvis
.

Then practice the “putting it all together drill” Start by striking the target and moving backwards, shooting from close hip until head shots are being made via point shoulder
if i am moving away from the target i am gonna do so far enough that is 2 arms distance or more from the bad guy, also known as, out of gun grab range, at this distance i am gonna bring the gun atleast between my line of sight and the target, i am not gonna try to do any shooting form the hip and or the shoulder position.


The video shows just how fast and accurate half and 3/4 hip can be with minimal training.
You know, sometimes the bad guy will not cooperate with your planned response.

Explain the need for a slight pause both before and after the shot.
why would i pause before i take the shot, if i have already went through the O.O.D.A loop and i am on the ACT phase, i am gonna bring the gun up, pause and then shoot, giving the enemy more time to react and put rounds on me? or is the pause because you are "swinging" from the low ready and you need that pause to make sure you are good? for me there is no pausing, hesitation is what we call that and that is what gets people killed.


Haney taught the pause to give the gun a chance to stop bouncing when coming up from low ready.
I use it--as a training aid--to prevent the student from shooting too soon.
Again, this is just a teaching aid which can soon be discarded once it becomes habit not to shoot until the muzzle is on target.

why is a whistle blow used to start a drill? how about a command that re enforces the "fighting" midset, or atleast some form of the defensive mindset at least.

I have been using a whistle for basic range drills for over 30 years, so I suppose it is just a habit.
When I begin teaching applications/tactics I use other triggers, such as a gunshot, a yell such as, "Larry!!! He's got a gun!!! and other stimuli.
Besides, "Fight" is used by Tactical Response and I would hate to step on Yeager's toes.
I hope this answers some of your concerns.
BTW---I could have just said, "Watch the video and your questions will be answered" ( except for the whistle) but that would have been a pretty nasty response.

Notice that I refused to answer your questions until you asked NICELY.
Which is a lesson for us all.
After all, this is The High Road, is it not?
 
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I made it to two minutes. I'd like credit for time served... Please.

I would suggest that you start with David Lazear's "Multiple Intelligence" works, and move up to more advanced Instructional Technology materials. Your 'sage on a stage' approach to teaching is painful to watch.
 
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I made it to two minutes. I'd like credit for time served... Please.

That is one minute longer than my wife lasted.
Thank you for the effort.
Paladin has told me that the first run has nearly sold out and more are being produced.
Not bad for a mere 4 days on the market.
 
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I practice point shooting, or whatever one wants to call it. As far as the video, I don't care for the weapon being so far from ones body in a close encounter, nor leaning too far from your center of mass.

The second part of the video deals with hip and retention shooting, which I believe should be the major core of one's training.
 
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Hi Matthew Temkin,


Thank you for posting the link and related info.

I enjoyed and appreciated your Video and find the demonstration valuable, and, good food-for-thought for anyone who Carries.


The method as shown seems in keeping with the wisdom of many of the old Double-Action era Gunfighters and Lawmen, who, believed starting 'low' with one's several successive, rapid-fire shots, and, allowing the natural rise of the Arm to proceed as one went 'up', was very practical and intuitive and fastest for being on Target from one's draw.

In fairly close quarters, rushing an assailent as one fires, probably seems counter-intuitive to most people...I'd have to say, it does to me.

None the less, it is a good option in my thinking, allowing - as you show - a far freer and more natural footing for going from Target to Target, than standing in place, or, retreating would...as well as possibly introducing an unexpected action an assailent or assailents would not have anticipated.


Of course, if confronting multiple assailents, and, having a five-shot, or, six shot Revolver, one would naturally pace or moderate one's effort accordingly...pending, if possible, a re-load...


Lol...


Having carried a J-Frame for many years, it's funny how well I can count to 'five'.
 
Thanks.
The video is mainly the "old school" methods of gun fighting, but adopted to blend in with what is considered to be the modern approach.
As with Fox News, I report and you decide what is useful.
I carry a J frame as well, sometimes backed up by a .32 Seecamp.
I have had several friends involved in gun play with multiple bad guys, and the rest usually run off when the first guy is shot.
 
If I was a Bad Guy, and someone shot one of my accomplices the way you were shooting that first half-dummy-target, I'd run off too!!! And fast!

Yeowey!...that DEFINITELY makes an impression of INTENT and follow-through, which would be hard - nay, imossible - to surpass.
 
Thanks.
In the end it's mainly about an aggressive mind set and launching offensive action ASAP.
At least when the distance is very close and cover/retreat is not a viable option.
 
I would like to say thanks to Matt. I have read through the posts and there was alot of talk of self promoting. Even if he is who cares. He is one of the very few people that I have seen in this board who will actually talk about the training he provides and believes in and will even provide drills and guidance for his training. I am always thinking, learning, and growing. With tactics and life. To simply discard and idea because it seems like it wont work, is different than usual, or its not the way you have trained in the past is very naive. It shows me that a person is content with being mediocre. If I did this would still be shooting at a bullseye target, in an god awful weaver stance, leaning back, with a tea cup grip, and having groups similar or worse to buckshot at 30+ yards. Almost everytime I train (not going to the range and doing my usual drills although sometimes then too) I am always learning something new. Sometimes I keep and retain the info sometimes I don't. Again thanks Matt. One more thing. I know you do more than just point shooting, do you have any drills or training ideas.
 
I don't know about anyone else but I am not going to move forward in a gun fight like depicted in the clip
and simular statements have been going around. I can think of numerous situations where I am going to attack the threat and not retreat, seek cover or seperate myself from the attacker.

One example: A man or men breaking into my home. I am going down the hall checking on/securing my daughter and I see the bad guy coming down the hall I am going to attack that threat and keep him and his bullets as far away from my daughter and wife as I possibly can. I dont want to be in a gunfight with my wife and daughter at my side.

When i was first taught to step into a punch I thought it was crazy. Then I went through the training, and learned uses, the proper techniques to perform the task and counter strikes. Then i put it in action and it worked.
 
In the end it's mainly about an aggressive mind set and launching offensive action ASAP. At least when the distance is very close and cover/retreat is not a viable option.

I agree with this statement, for what most real gunfights for civilian types are a bad breath distances.
 
Cornbred--point shooting is just one aspect of combat shooting.
To put it into perspective in the 24 hour Armed Security class--which is closely related to the needs of the armed citizen-- that I teach once a month, point shooting takes up about one hour.
Other topics include:

1) History of handguns.

2) Nomenclature of revolvers and semi autos.

3) Draw and present drills for both types of handguns.

4) Gun safety, including home storage.

5) Loading and unloading revolvers and semi automatics.

6) Holsters and accessories.

7) Ammunition and choice of carry rounds.

8) Basics of marksmanship.
Practicing aimed fire--one and two hands--from 3-15 yards.
Use of cover.

9) Low light shooting, including use of flashlights.

10) Point shooting, including fast drawing techniques.

11) Weapon retention.

12) How to approach, search and handcuff a suspect.

13) How to call the police and how to interact with responding officers.

14) Gun cleaning.

15) Legal and moral concerns of deadly physical force.

As you can see, there is much more to master than mere technique, be it aimed or point shooting. There are some excellent books/DVDs available that I consider to be must haves:
Two examples are:
http://www.amazon.com/Concealed-Han...=sr_1_6?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1265805341&sr=1-6

http://www.amazon.com/Tactical-Pist...=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1265805452&sr=1-1
 
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