Interesting LEO encounter while target shooting...

The only federal land in Illinois has a military base, FBI office, or post office on it. I don't think they would appreciate it.

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Not true unless the Federal Government has ceded Shawnee National Forest to the State. What I am not sure of are the restrictions on shooting in National Forests. I know you can hunt in/on them because 1000's do so each year; I don't know what target shooting regulations apply. When we hunted in the Tunnel Hill area we routinely engaged in recreational shooting when it didn't interfere with others hunting.

I just can not image driving to federal property and shooting. It would be a fast track to trouble for sure.

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Just because you cannot imagine does not mean it isn't part of our life. Guess what, in the fall hundreds of thousands are out on the National Forests and BLM shooting at deer, elk, bear, and various birds, etc. All completely legal.

The rest of the year, target practice and varmit hunting are no more out of the ordinary than picnicing and bird-watching.

I guess you guys have a lot of open Federal properly west of the Mississippi River.

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These lands belong to all of us - you just have a little farther to drive. But there are disadvantages too, like the absence of tax revenue that would be levied if it were private property.

BLM land is a western thing. It's one of the main things I miss about California after moving to Texas. I did that constantly and it made shooting a LOT more fun.

The cop shouldn't have treated you that way. However, as I read your story you made the first mistake.

Using an uncontrolled public shooting area, to me, requires watching your surroundings constantly.

In part that's because the common shooting areas I frequented were sometimes visited by people who simply weren't thinking in terms of guns. Offroaders, adventurous tourists, and so on. I once decided not to shoot in a particular spot because there was a line of 15+ rovers, cruisers, and jeeps slowly caravaning through an area a mile or so off that on most weekends at least one shooter would be using for long range rifle practice. They weren't near where I wanted to shoot but they were heading in our direction. They had as much right to offroad as we had to shoot so we drove on, found a close-in berm well off their track, and shot handguns until they were all on their way. Wise (if I say so myself) because they wound up driving to exactly the area I had initially planned to shoot. If I hadn't been watching out for them they would've come over a rise and been faced with a family pointing gus more or less right at them. Not good PR.

Maybe that's not a risk where you were but it's very possible to have someone show up where and when you least expect it. You don't want anything bad to happen.

The other reason for awareness is more basic. Those out of the way places on public land are out of the way places. It was pretty common to see piles of wire insulation for example (in other words copper thieves were going out and dumping the "junk" part of their stolen wire). There are criminals who like out-of-the-way places and they often like guns too.

The risks are no higher than a normal shooting range. There are plenty of stories in of follow-home thefts from people going to normal shooting ranges (because in CA a law-abiding gun owner probably has their guns unloaded, locked, and in the trunk on the drive home). The risks are different though.

The fact that a cop got within speaking distance of you without your noticing shows you weren't paying enough attention to your surroundings. Your ears may have been blocked but you have eyes too.

That's my spin anyway.

Seriously, we should get more people to go there on a more regular basis, and at the very least overwhelm that SO with so many checks, and if it gets regular, either they'll leave people alone, or there'll be good grounds for a lawsuit against them (unreasonable search and seizure).

One thing that has not been brought up is the fact that you don't know if any crimes had been committed in that area and you two may have fit the description. The officer probably could have made things better if she had explained things. Perhaps she was one of the "evil" cops, maybe she didn't have time to chat?

If she spent 30 to 60 seconds talking to you two after checking up on you I doubt that this thread would have been existed.

Also remember that in California (and many other states) LEOs have the authority under law to take control of, render safe, and check the serial number and identifying marks of ANY firearm they encounter. It isn't a criminal thing any more than running your license plates.

They also have the authority to check identification.

That's all this LEO did (from the story). She didn't dig through the car or turn out the guy's pockets.

A search in absence of probable cause certainly is criminal, state laws notwithstanding.

Also remember that in California (and many other states) LEOs have the authority under law to take control of, render safe, and check the serial number and identifying marks of ANY firearm they encounter. It isn't a criminal thing any more than running your license plates.

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Didn't mean to offend you.

I think my points stand though. How hard or easy it was for someone to sneak up on you (and I seriously doubt the LEO was trying for stealth) doesn't erase the fact that they snuck up on you. The bad part about being in hard to see and hard to reach places is that they are hard to see and hard to reach if something goes wrong...so you must be extra careful *whatever* you are doing.

As for the inspecting of firearms and ID, that was more for the person who was talking about getting more people "searched" so the local PD could be sued.

A couple years ago, my 2 inlaws were up on BLM property shooting when a female Fish & Game warden drove up. My younger inlaw didn't want her to feel uncomfortable so he put his Sig on the tailgate and stepped away from it.

She walked over and picked it up and saw it was loaded. She wrote him a citation for having a loaded handgun in a vehicle, which you can't have in CA unless it's concealed and you have a permit for it.

He said she was very polite the whole time.

I'm not sure if I'm more upset by the unreasonable search or the registration of your guns?

A couple years ago, my 2 inlaws were up on BLM property shooting when a female Fish & Game warden drove up. My younger inlaw didn't want her to feel uncomfortable so he put his Sig on the tailgate and stepped away from it.

She walked over and picked it up and saw it was loaded. She wrote him a citation for having a loaded handgun in a vehicle, which you can't have in CA unless it's concealed and you have a permit for it.

He said she was very polite the whole time.

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No good deed ever goes unpunished.

I kinda thought people were supposed to be assumed to be good guys until there was some reason to suspect that they might be doing something illegal?

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Its supposed to be, but it never really worked that way, and doesn't today either because of the effective lack of penalties.

Shawnee...I grew up just a few miles north...what a beautiful place. I used to spend my summers on kinkaid lake. I think my grandma still holds the lake record for the largest crappie. good memories...

I was not aware that I could just drive to Shawnnee or Midewin and start hammering away.

I kinda thought people were supposed to be assumed to be good guys until there was some reason to suspect that they might be doing something illegal?

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Not meaning any disrespect but what country do you live in? I have lived in Calif., N.Y., Mo., Minn., and Ala. and in all these states the cops can walk up and demand identification from you, pat you down, and run a check for warrants, etc. for no particular reason other than that they care to.

"Reasonable cause"? They need none. Meaning that they always have a reasonable cause, one can be manufactured on the spot.

In this case it was that the Officer heard gun fire coming from an area that it normally does not come from. Than she had to hike up a path to get to ya which was inconvenient. Than you wern't Brad Pitt. Yeah she was gonna run a check.

In most Federal parks it agin the law to carry a firearm unless it's hunting season. In all state parks in Ca. it's agin the law. BLM land is different but local laws and ords. may efffect it. If it is used for cattle grazing for example firearms may be off limits. In much of Northern Ca. (particularly Humboldt and Del Norte Co.s) marijuana is an abundant cash crop. Gunfire coming from an area where it usually don't come from is suspicious in and of itself. Likely why the Officer alone and without backup, checked it out.

"File a complaint" it will be placed in the circular file drawer on the floor.

Politicians openly clamor for the right to spot check folks on the streets for their ID. ICE 2 months ago stopped 20-25 women dropping off children at a public school 6 blocks from me and checked their IDs. They arrested 11 who had no papers on them, deported 3 and returned 8 after their relatives rounded up their IDs and recued these mothers out of a bullpen.

"This don't happen to citizens in America" Happens every day.

tipoc

I don't know what the regulations are. We used to (70's, early W's) shot recreation-ally where we camped. We didn't camp in a designated camp ground but usually fairly close to where we were hunting. I imagine now that things are much more tightly managed/regulated. There was and I expect is a lot of horse riding with trails etc. so we were always careful to make sure we weren't shooting toward trails and we always had a good backstop.

The following are the regulations with respect to recreational shooting in the Wayne National Forest in Ohio:

State Law prohibits shooting and target practicing on all public lands (including the Wayne National Forest), except when legally pursuing game. United States 36 CFR 261.10(d) prohibits discharging of firearm on national forest land under the following situations:

In or within 150 yards of a residence, building, campsite, developed recreation site, trailhead, or other occupied areas;
Across or on a Forest Development road, or a body of water adjacent thereto, or in any manner or place whereby any person or property is exposed to injury or damage as a result of such discharge; and
Into or within any cave.
Also Remember....

No target shooting is permitted on the Wayne NF

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Just Jim

Bad guys practice too, how does he know if your good or bad till he checks you out??

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yea? so what? Bad guys order pizza too, and wear socks. Does this mean that LEOs can search anyone ordering pizza? stop anyone on the street wearing socks just because, hey badguys wear socks too!




Tipoc

Not meaning any disrespect but what country do you live in? I have lived in Calif., N.Y., Mo., Minn., and Ala. and in all these states the cops can walk up and demand identification from you, pat you down, and run a check for warrants, etc. for no particular reason other than that they care to.

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no. Here in MN, you are required to identify yourself when asked. Once the LEO has your name, they can run it, but then they can run any name they want for whatever. However, they cannot search your person. Often they will ask, and most people simply comply.

You should have asked for his badge number. You would be amazed at how asking an LEO for his badge number can throw them off and suddenly tame the tough-guy routine.

Overall, I just don't like the concept of a cop sneaking up on you two in a legal BLM area, barking out orders, demanding to see IDs, and running numbers.


Police wouldn't show up at a public gym, stop things, and run names and IDs to make sure there weren't any "criminals practicing." That would be harassment pure and simple- why is this any different?

Not meaning any disrespect but what country do you live in? I have lived in Calif., N.Y., Mo., Minn., and Ala. and in all these states the cops can walk up and demand identification from you, pat you down, and run a check for warrants, etc. for no particular reason other than that they care to.

"Reasonable cause"? They need none. Meaning that they always have a reasonable cause, one can be manufactured on the spot.

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I guess police in my neighborhood of AZ are a little more willing to pay lip service to Terry v. Ohio. Both times I've encountered LEOs while shooting on public land they were polite, friendly, didn't ask for ID, and didn't touch or inspect my guns. They just checked to see that everything was safe and were on their way.

I'll try to remember how good I've got it here from now on.

Jeez, what's the big deal with having a LEO check your I.D. and inquire about your shooting activities? I've gone hunting hundreds of times and occasionally a LEO (or game warden) will stop us and ask to check our license and I.D. just to see if we are legal. I see nothing wrong with that. The LEO is just doing his job. Lighten up!

no. Here in MN, you are required to identify yourself when asked. Once the LEO has your name, they can run it, but then they can run any name they want for whatever. However, they cannot search your person. Often they will ask, and most people simply comply.

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Yep, most folks comply. Of course you don't have to. But than what? Than if the Officer feels like it he/she can can say (and have to me) "Sir, I can hold you here until our K9 unit arrives. We have a sniffer dog and we will sniff the area of your vehicle and of your person. Should the dog indicate that he smells any possible narcotics or firearms we have the legal right to search you and your vehicle." At which point you have a decision to make. Wait an hour or two with the officer or comply. Most folks will comply. So yes they can search you. Of course you can always stand their and argue your rights with one or two cops on a dark street and possibly spend a bit more time in their company than you'd care to.

You can conveniently look like a suspect in something or the other (which can always be true) and they will stop and ask you for ID and to empty your pockets, etc. etc.

The point is that this is very, very common. More so than many think.

When shooting in rural areas it useful to know the local rules and regs. It's also useful to remember that game wardens, BLM personell, etc. have the right to ask for ID and hunting licences. There are poachers as well as the local organic ganja farming entrepeneurs.

When up with my family in Del Norte Co. I know where to shoot. When the Sheriffs or the Forest Service hear shots coming from the South Fork of the Smith River they know folks are on private land. A couple of other areas as well. But some areas are off limits. It's best to know to avoid possible problems. Being polite always helps.

tipoc

Jeez, what's the big deal with having a LEO check your I.D. and inquire about your shooting activities? I've gone hunting hundreds of times and occasionally a LEO (or game warden) will stop us and ask to check our license and I.D. just to see if we are legal. I see nothing wrong with that. The LEO is just doing his job. Lighten up!

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Papers please comrade!

Why should people be subject to any official inquiries just for engaging in a legal activity? Who needs a fourth amendment anyway, huh?