I guess we're lucky here in phoenix, we have one of the best public ranges in the country, Ben Avery, in the north valley. It costs $5.00 per person to shoot all day( if you want) targets are cheap, there are 65 stations, and they have an impecable safety record. I have heard of people getting hasseled for shooting in the desert but i don't think are any laws against it.
Interesting LEO encounter while target shooting...
- Thread starter FourNineFoxtrot
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JesseL
Member
Pete409 said:
Good. You don't keep a country free by 'being reasonable' about minor encroachments on our individual liberties. I intend to guard my freedoms as jealously as possible. Anything else is inviting the death by a thousand cuts.
Pete409 said:
You nailed it, Pete.
Law Enforcement is not our enemy. I don't think there's a 4th Amendment issue here. If the LEO asked them to open their trunk and search, and they refused, and he did so anyway, there would be an issue.
You can refuse a search if you want to - but I think the Supreme Court has given the police in general pretty broad power to take temporary control of a firearm in the course of almost any kind of stop/ID check. I am not a lawyer, and don't know all of the legalese, but if I have immediate enough access to a weapon that it could be used against them, they can take temporary control.
That's not what is forbidden by the 4th Amendment. The temporary is important - what concerned the Founding Fathers (and ratifiers of the Bill of Rights) was not taking control of a weapon for 5 minutes during an ID check. When the Crown seized property, they didn't give it back five minutes later.
The Supreme had to balance two competing sets of interests - the safety of peace officers, and the rights of the citizen. They may be off a little bit one way or the other, but in general, I think that with regard to this issue, they have done a pretty good job.
Mike
Baba Louie
Member
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Don't know what SOP is there, but twice in the past when out a shootin on BLM land here in NV (85% of the state) I've met with local boys in blue (tan/khaki actually). Their first action usually involves calling in your car/truck tags getting some info there.
Those two times, we saw them approach, put things down before they got there and moseyed out to greet them. BS'd for a bit about what we were shooting, clean up (policing our brass plus other people/slobs trash etc)... t'were no big deal.
I figure they're doing their job. I know they do call in each stop they make and have certain procedures required whenever they do exit their car. I'm just as polite and professional to them as I expect them to be to me and these two guys were both.
It's the non-LEO's that stop nearby that get my attention and you darn sure better not be surprised when out ashootin in the desert. Just not a wise move. When people drive by, as they approach, shooting stops and they get a head nod or a wave. I might be smilin, but I am armed. (I assume they are too and they usually do smile or show their empty hands with a wave). Judging from the amount of trash a lot of BLM shooters seem to leave about, I typically prejudge them as being one of those trashy types. In 25+ years of BLM shooting, I've yet to meet one who picks up and takes out more target trash than they brought... a sad statement unto itself.
I cannot imagine sneaking up on someone who has a loaded gun in their hand either (from the LEO's POV, maybe she wasn't sneaking at all, just walked up to you amazed that you let her get so close). How close was the Deputy when you "first heard" them behind you? (besides too close)
Any Lessons Worth Learning?
I preach taking out more stuff than you brought even if it's only one piece of trash put there by someone else... two or more is better (the more lead we leave, the more trash we take. A fair trade off maybe).
NEVER let anyone come up on your 6 without you being aware of their presence. Never. (unless they're reeeeeeal goooood and sneaky... like Lone Watie (Chief Dan George) in the Outlaw Josey Wales)
Never shoot all of your ammo. Leave at least one magazine or cylinder full for the drive out.
But that's just me. and I typically don't worry about or even comment on LEO encounters... unless they surprise me. And that'd be my fault.
Those two times, we saw them approach, put things down before they got there and moseyed out to greet them. BS'd for a bit about what we were shooting, clean up (policing our brass plus other people/slobs trash etc)... t'were no big deal.
I figure they're doing their job. I know they do call in each stop they make and have certain procedures required whenever they do exit their car. I'm just as polite and professional to them as I expect them to be to me and these two guys were both.
It's the non-LEO's that stop nearby that get my attention and you darn sure better not be surprised when out ashootin in the desert. Just not a wise move. When people drive by, as they approach, shooting stops and they get a head nod or a wave. I might be smilin, but I am armed. (I assume they are too and they usually do smile or show their empty hands with a wave). Judging from the amount of trash a lot of BLM shooters seem to leave about, I typically prejudge them as being one of those trashy types. In 25+ years of BLM shooting, I've yet to meet one who picks up and takes out more target trash than they brought... a sad statement unto itself.
I cannot imagine sneaking up on someone who has a loaded gun in their hand either (from the LEO's POV, maybe she wasn't sneaking at all, just walked up to you amazed that you let her get so close). How close was the Deputy when you "first heard" them behind you? (besides too close)
Any Lessons Worth Learning?
I preach taking out more stuff than you brought even if it's only one piece of trash put there by someone else... two or more is better (the more lead we leave, the more trash we take. A fair trade off maybe).
NEVER let anyone come up on your 6 without you being aware of their presence. Never. (unless they're reeeeeeal goooood and sneaky... like Lone Watie (Chief Dan George) in the Outlaw Josey Wales
)Never shoot all of your ammo. Leave at least one magazine or cylinder full for the drive out.
But that's just me. and I typically don't worry about or even comment on LEO encounters... unless they surprise me. And that'd be my fault.
doc2rn
Member
I was pulled over one day on my way to work as an armorred car guard. Officer aproached, kept both hands on wheel, saw my uniform and drew down on me. Orderred me out at gun point, and tried to pull my sidearm and couldn't due to CQC Holster. I took out the firearm and put it on the roof with a gun pushed in to the base of my skull. I then moved to the cruiser and the officer took my weapon and ejected every round onto the ground. He then ran my ID my liscence and registration, which checked out (surprise). He then took his weapon off me and said get out. He drove off in a hurry. Like I was gonna run over to my gun and fill his car full of expensive dc'd Black Talons. Yup he was one of those kids that got picked on in HS and wanted to get back at the world.
Nope them LEO's is fine upstanding individuals with no domestic issues.
Nope them LEO's is fine upstanding individuals with no domestic issues.
tasco 74
Member
this all seems so funny to me.. i live in a small town in a small counity so if a leo came up to me at the pulic range he'd probably know my name...
Ed Ames
Member
Baba, that's exactly right... except in this case we're dealing with California so you have an extra risk which is disarming yourself and getting out of the area without breaking any laws.
I was always very observant of those in eyeshot when it came time to leave. I'd pack up everything except one case with gun, police the area, get everyone loaded up, then do the legal necessities with the pistol and drive off. Watch for cars following or others leaving right behind you... usually pretty visible on dirt roads.
Did any of that ever happen to me? No. To others? Yeah, though not often.
At that point, and this could cut both ways, I went and had some food (often breakfast) at a restaurant where I could sit watching my car. We always had interesting things to talk about and we'd waste an hour or two enjoying a good meal and good company. Why? The hope was to bore the follow homes. The flip side is that it may give follow homes time to call friends but frankly they'll have that anyway.
You are right about nobody taking out their trash. I tried a few times but it seemed like by the next time there was more than when we started. Then I started looking at the kinds of trash and realizing that some of it wasn't shooters but actual dumping... like the wire insulation I mentioned before. The only "good" part is that there were always things to shoot at.
I was always very observant of those in eyeshot when it came time to leave. I'd pack up everything except one case with gun, police the area, get everyone loaded up, then do the legal necessities with the pistol and drive off. Watch for cars following or others leaving right behind you... usually pretty visible on dirt roads.
Did any of that ever happen to me? No. To others? Yeah, though not often.
At that point, and this could cut both ways, I went and had some food (often breakfast) at a restaurant where I could sit watching my car. We always had interesting things to talk about and we'd waste an hour or two enjoying a good meal and good company. Why? The hope was to bore the follow homes. The flip side is that it may give follow homes time to call friends but frankly they'll have that anyway.
You are right about nobody taking out their trash. I tried a few times but it seemed like by the next time there was more than when we started. Then I started looking at the kinds of trash and realizing that some of it wasn't shooters but actual dumping... like the wire insulation I mentioned before. The only "good" part is that there were always things to shoot at.
Just because 'most folks do' isn't a reason that carries water with me.
Further, you stated that they were allowed do search you. No, they are not. Can the LEO make your life somewhat difficult? Yes. But guess what, the more people that start saying 'no' the less effective these scare tactics are. Also, how many K-9 units do you think the police have to come sniffing? Further, the K-9 has to specifically signal a type of drug or other illegal stuff. Firearms aren't illegal, a dog trained to detect drugs, guns, bombs, etc, cannot supply reasonable info to have a search.
I guess it doesn't bother me that the police come around when they hear gunfire Especially when it isn't at a gun range or club.
An earlier post on the FBI killings in 86 by Plate and Mattix in which two really bad guys killed some really good LEOs. Guess where they got their gun
Yep they killed a guy that was out target practicing on public land in Florida for his guns. It happens more often than you think.
Here in my state a couple of young thrill killers killed some people target practicing at a open rock pit. I guess since some of you guys can't figure out that bad guys steal their guns from good guys and use them on anyone they want. So next time you go out watch who follows you home.
One more thing, yes a bad guy orders pizza and wears socks but it isn't against the law. A bad guy having a gun is.
jj
Especially when it isn't at a gun range or club.An earlier post on the FBI killings in 86 by Plate and Mattix in which two really bad guys killed some really good LEOs. Guess where they got their gun
Yep they killed a guy that was out target practicing on public land in Florida for his guns. It happens more often than you think.Here in my state a couple of young thrill killers killed some people target practicing at a open rock pit. I guess since some of you guys can't figure out that bad guys steal their guns from good guys and use them on anyone they want. So next time you go out watch who follows you home.
One more thing, yes a bad guy orders pizza and wears socks but it isn't against the law. A bad guy having a gun is.
jj
GigaBuist
Member
Shucks, you were on public land. I've had the cops venture into my buddy's back yard while we were shooting some pistols and he checked out our 'Safety Inspection' cards (Michigan law) while he was there.
Gunnerpalace
Member
JJ you are right on, reminds me of a post I saw on a Ipod forum:
"What did you expect coming to a forum? Of course people are whining. The 99% who are happy are off using it and enjoying it."
I'm just saying.
"What did you expect coming to a forum? Of course people are whining. The 99% who are happy are off using it and enjoying it."
I'm just saying.
Meatco
Member
There was a law passed 2 years ago in Kalif. that states we can no longer go out to the woods (or desert, or anyplace else) and shoot. If we are going to be shooting, it has to be at a registered firing range, or we better be hunting (and make sure you have a license with you). No more target practice, unless you're at a licensed range@!
I used to take my son up to Mono County all the time to target practice, no more!
I used to take my son up to Mono County all the time to target practice, no more!
Gaucho Gringo
Member
Earlier this year my son & I went to go shooting in an area I had not been to in years. As I crossed the bridge I noticed there was a county sheriff parked in a turnout along the road. I stopped and walked over to him in his car. I asked him if it was ok to shoot in the area as I had not been there in over 20 years. He said sure there were lots of places to shoot but just be safe. I thanked him and walked back to my car and drove off. Found a place to shoot along the road and had a good time. I have no problems with the LEO's where I live.
Ed Ames
Member
Meatco... what range operator told you that? 
Some specific public lands have been closed to target shooting due to lead concerns or similar but certainly not all of them. In fact I went to a government office to get maps to legal public land to shoot on only a little more than a year ago.
Some specific public lands have been closed to target shooting due to lead concerns or similar but certainly not all of them. In fact I went to a government office to get maps to legal public land to shoot on only a little more than a year ago.
4D5
Member
It's different here
Well I guess it would be different here.
For starters firearms aren't registered in Nevada, and then there's the private party sale where no paperwork is exchanged. So the running of gun s/n would only show if it was reported as stolen/used in a crime, not who owns it. That begs the question of probable cause for unreasonable search.
Then you have to ask yourself. So how would this play out in a public range? There are two public ranges operated by local government entities in my area. What if... LEO decides to troll at the range asking for "papers" and shaning everyone down. Makes one wonder how well that would go over with constituents.
Call me crotchety but I'm not going to submit to a search without probable cause. If I'm out minding my own business doing something lawful, then there's not justification to search me just because you can. Same goes for running my ID. It's basically no different than going door to door asking for "papers".
I'd really have problem with the guilty until proven innocent comment too. Knowing me I'd want to know why my ID was attempted to be run. Having not done anything illegal, there's no reason for probable cause.
The stealth sneaking up from behind was not a wise move on the LEO's part. What if it really was bad guys, the outcome most likely been much different, two against one. When I'm out shooting on BLM I always have the situational awarness meter pegged. Where I go you can see anyone coming for 1/4 mile in any direction.
The order to put the gun down would be ambigous for me because I'd have to ask which on. When I go out to BLM to shoot there's the loaded pistol on my side, the loaded pistol on the talegate of the truck , the loaded gun in my hand that I'm shooting and the loaded rifle in the bed of the truck.
I'm glad I moved out of the PSRK and into the United States. I cringe everytime I go to a gun store in California and am reminded of all the crap you have to go thru when I hear someone buying a gun. Fortunately it's only on those rare times when I visit family still living in the PSRK that I'm subject to hearing the abuse of gun ownership.
Having served and defended the Constitution of the United States I intend to enjoy the liberty and freedom it affords me.
Well I guess it would be different here.
For starters firearms aren't registered in Nevada, and then there's the private party sale where no paperwork is exchanged. So the running of gun s/n would only show if it was reported as stolen/used in a crime, not who owns it. That begs the question of probable cause for unreasonable search.
Then you have to ask yourself. So how would this play out in a public range? There are two public ranges operated by local government entities in my area. What if... LEO decides to troll at the range asking for "papers" and shaning everyone down. Makes one wonder how well that would go over with constituents.
Call me crotchety but I'm not going to submit to a search without probable cause. If I'm out minding my own business doing something lawful, then there's not justification to search me just because you can. Same goes for running my ID. It's basically no different than going door to door asking for "papers".
I'd really have problem with the guilty until proven innocent comment too. Knowing me I'd want to know why my ID was attempted to be run. Having not done anything illegal, there's no reason for probable cause.
The stealth sneaking up from behind was not a wise move on the LEO's part. What if it really was bad guys, the outcome most likely been much different, two against one. When I'm out shooting on BLM I always have the situational awarness meter pegged. Where I go you can see anyone coming for 1/4 mile in any direction.
The order to put the gun down would be ambigous for me because I'd have to ask which on. When I go out to BLM to shoot there's the loaded pistol on my side, the loaded pistol on the talegate of the truck , the loaded gun in my hand that I'm shooting and the loaded rifle in the bed of the truck.
I'm glad I moved out of the PSRK and into the United States. I cringe everytime I go to a gun store in California and am reminded of all the crap you have to go thru when I hear someone buying a gun. Fortunately it's only on those rare times when I visit family still living in the PSRK that I'm subject to hearing the abuse of gun ownership.
Having served and defended the Constitution of the United States I intend to enjoy the liberty and freedom it affords me.
FourNineFoxtrot
Member
- Joined
- Jun 24, 2007
- Messages
- 361
Baba Louie said:
You could say I've learned from this experience, as I try to do with any experience. I don't much like that she got about ten feet from me, on my 6, before calling out, but there's not a whole lot I can do about that now... and while I'll try to keep that from happening again, I don't have eyes in the back of my head. I don't have a Spidey-sense telling me when somebody's tailing me. And if I keep responding to posts saying I screwed up by letting a cop approach me undetected, I'm probably gonna say something I'll regret, so this will be the last time. Consider me suitably chastened, and that's all I have to say on the subject.
You could say I've learned from this experience, as I try to do with any experience. I don't much like that she got about ten feet from me, on my 6, before calling out, but there's not a whole lot I can do about that now... and while I'll try to keep that from happening again, I don't have eyes in the back of my head. I don't have a Spidey-sense telling me when somebody's tailing me. And if I keep responding to posts saying I screwed up by letting a cop approach me undetected, I'm probably gonna say something I'll regret, so this will be the last time. Consider me suitably chastened, and that's all I have to say on the subject.
Ragnar Danneskjold
Member
Yes, but police are not allowed to randomly search everyone they see ordering a pizza to see if they are committing crimes.
There has to be reasonable evidence a person is engaged in crime in order to search them. Simply having a gun is not reason enough. That fall right into the "only bad guys own guns" lie.
Mauserguy
Member
I've had exactly the same thing happen to me. I was out shooting on public land, a very legal thing to do, and was accosted by a BLM ranger who ran my papers and guns. She was polite, but clearly fishing for something. Interestingly, her check on my guns showed one major flaw in their handgun registration data. I've got guns registered to me that I don't own. I asked her about it and she said that was common. Hmmm....
Another time, a different ranger stopped by at the same place. He didn't run my papers. We just stood there for about half an hour talking about local real estate prices. I think it comes down to whether the officer had his donut that morning or not.
Mauserguy
Another time, a different ranger stopped by at the same place. He didn't run my papers. We just stood there for about half an hour talking about local real estate prices. I think it comes down to whether the officer had his donut that morning or not.
Mauserguy
woodybrighton
member
copper out being a copper hears gunfire is going to investigate.
Most insane conversation I ever had with a police officer. On sentry duty outside TA centre but behind a fence policeman turns up very aggressively asks do you have a license for that gun
its not a gun its a rifle
well is it yours
Nah mate its liz's
who the hell is liz getting angry now
you know old woman face on stamps and bank notes
comprehension dawns on police officer very ***** funny.
turns out somebody had reported strange men with guns and uniforms at a barracks said barracks has been there for over a hundred years but hey.
but sussex police have also tried to arrest us once for being drug smugglers after landing from a navy mine sweeper
Most insane conversation I ever had with a police officer. On sentry duty outside TA centre but behind a fence policeman turns up very aggressively asks do you have a license for that gun
its not a gun its a rifle
well is it yours
Nah mate its liz's
who the hell is liz getting angry now
you know old woman face on stamps and bank notes
comprehension dawns on police officer very ***** funny.
turns out somebody had reported strange men with guns and uniforms at a barracks said barracks has been there for over a hundred years but hey.
but sussex police have also tried to arrest us once for being drug smugglers after landing from a navy mine sweeper
Dr. Dickie
Member
I see this sort of thing as the new "Pro-active" approach that police departments are currently taking. I support the men and women LEOs in their job, but I have a very real large problem with the polices of some of the departments that they work for.
Pro-active is simply a PC term for "guilty until proved otherwise."
Watching a show like COPS, you hear, "You have no business being around here. I don't want to see you around here again." WTH? Is this America or not? You have to have a "valid" reason to be driving down public streets?
Crime prevention by patrolling the area, showing a presence, and enforcing the law, okay. Crime prevention by treating the general public as if they are criminals until they can prove otherwise, not American. We have serious problems in this country. The more we tolerate, the more this will become the norm.
WE are responsible for protecting ourselves, not the police. The vast majority of this country has forgotten that.
Pro-active is simply a PC term for "guilty until proved otherwise."
Watching a show like COPS, you hear, "You have no business being around here. I don't want to see you around here again." WTH? Is this America or not? You have to have a "valid" reason to be driving down public streets?
Crime prevention by patrolling the area, showing a presence, and enforcing the law, okay. Crime prevention by treating the general public as if they are criminals until they can prove otherwise, not American. We have serious problems in this country. The more we tolerate, the more this will become the norm.
WE are responsible for protecting ourselves, not the police. The vast majority of this country has forgotten that.
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