My observations of shooting vs the all too easy MOA.

U.S.SFC_RET said:

Shooting is an art and a science in its own right. You have to discover it step by step.

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Reading the words of experienced shooters here guides our steps along the paths that lead to mastery of the art and understanding of the science.

It's better to learn what we may from mentors than to be left to reinvent the wheel, over and over, by trial and error.

Then we practice.

I have 4 Savages and 2 Remingtons, all will shoot MOA or better. They all have decent optics and I have not modified them in any way. If I don't shoot MOA with any of these it was me or the load I created.

Personally I enjoy shooting with a rest much more than standing or prone or whatever else. I guess it boils down to personal preference.

Shooting standing off hand?? I never really learned that in the military. Our combat line of thinking was get as good as rest as you can get with good cover.

I have made a few shots while hunting standing, I avoid these for obvious reasons. If I pull the trigger on anything but paper I want the best support I can get.

I was doing a plains game hunt and could have probably shot several animals freehand. Instead I did the smart thing and used the shooting sticks I had been practicing with for the previous 12 months. MOA is meaningless in all my hunting situations save long range varminting.

I am no shooter elite, but I really like the rhythm and relaxation of shooting from a bench. I am an average reloader that enjoys the process from start to finish.

SFC, you made alot of generalizations. I take issue with many, but you have the right to voice them. That guy that was shaking with his .22-250, did you leave him with a warm fuzzy"? I suspect that by taking such strident positions like the original post, you invite arguments. You opinions are based on your perspectives and they do not apply to everyone.

I do believe as absolute truth four of your points........It's your signature line for the 4 rules.

so why does every thread like this have to say things like position shooters need those coats and gloves to shoot well? thats stupid as its like saying why do benchrest shooters need a bench, scope and rest to shoot well? its like any thing else always make up excusses for why you can not do it well?

Have you seen the army marksmanship unit or marine rifle teams shoot at the nationals or any other match that follows the highpower rules? wow dude they use jackets and gloves so they must SUCK also.

I quit watching Olympic small bore and air rifle events as they have to use coats and gloves, shoes and those darn shooting pants. what wooses for shooting for our country and using those things.

I wonder why the army has civilian position shooters training the marksman classes around the states and not the benchrest or mall ninja shooters. why do you not go sign up for the program. OH so you are not a presidents 100 or distinguised markman holder as required. Wait those are those darn position awards again.

Darn that shows how stupid the army is not to let the mall ninja guys do it instead of those position shooters.

I will site in my hunting rifles off a bench as to get it zeroed in as few rounds as possible. as far as my open site rifles I use in matches I shoot them in the position I shoot from. If its not on call when I site it in prone to start then somethings wrong and i will find out on that new barrel or rifle.
now in a match I only seem to get like 1 1/2 or so minutes on the slow prone target at say a 200 yard match.
Does that mean my outfit is a 1 1/2 moa outfit? no it just means thats what i get out of a open sighted ar15 on the ground with a sling in a match. Now what i do like to see is each and every shot be within 1/3 " or so at that range on a shot that I called. its only a 20 shot string.

I am proud to be a position shooter as it shows we are doing something right to have everyone picking on us why we shoot as well as we do.

let me be the first to say.....

I can't shoot 1 MOA! not off hand, not seated with elbows on knees...and...not off the bench. (feel much better getting that off my chest)

Prone....well personally, I have know desire to lay in the dirt.

I hope to some day, but I can't today.

I suspect that much of the 1 MOA shooting that goes on out there is...at best...three round groups (with fliers not counted) and at worst.... video game "shooting".

Yeah, well, that was also about $4,500 worth of rifle and scope...

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I feel better now. Mine is a new-old-stock (pre-accutrigger), off-the-shelf, Savage BVSS in .243 Win. with an after market trigger and a ultra cheap 40x scope. Total investment: $382.00 1.5 years ago.

And folks think benchresting is easy... As it is, you've got variables like your load, humidity/pressure, and wind... Plus, on a hot day, you get vertical wind...

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Excuses, excuses!

Bogie, your level of proficiency requires more hours of practice than I have available to donate! I have tremendous respect for those that apply the practice and discipline to shoot that well. Although I would love to be competitive on your level, I will have to settle for "minute of coyote".
My little 5 round group required many,many hours of load development at the loading bench and at the shooting bench, too. I can only imagine the time required to develop the load and skills for a dime-sized, 200 yd., 10 rounder!

I am very, very humbled, indeed...

Poper

I didn't show y'all the bad groups.

Maybe I missed it, but I read that people were humbled at the Garand shoot, but I didn't see how well that was? Why type of MOA were they holding or what were their scores on what type of targets? I love to shoot off hand at 100 yards, so I'd like to compare my skills to that of the Garand shooters using the same targets (but I don't have a Garand)

So what is good off hand shooting? Given a 1moa rifle and good ammo and no wind what can you expect? How about this as a straw man?
100 yards off hand -
1 moa - impossible
3 moa - unbelievable
6 moa - great shooting (means you're keeping all shots in a 6" circle)
10 moa - good
14 moa - acceptable
20 moa - go back to basics and start at 25 yards.

If there is an industry standard I'd like to see it. Anyone know of a standard? I'm guessing the Marines have a standard of some sort so maybe we can use that if anyone knows what it is.

I get a good laugh from some of the posts on huting websites where a poster will show a target of from their 300RUM that is submoa, and in the next thread they'll argue that you need to use something bigger than a .243 for deer hunting in case you make a marginal shot. 'Marginal shots' are the result of spending a lot of time trying to make a nice suitable-for-framing target from the bench instead of practicing from positions that don't include a bench.


I'll admit, shooting at paper targets is not fun, but reactive targets are. Shoot at a plastic soda bottle at 50 yards or a bleach bottle at 100 yards offhand with a mosin nagant is huge fun and will develop ones skills.

One of my proudest moments was during a range outing with friends. I was shooting at a 5 gal bucket at 200 yards offhand with a yugo mauser and a friend of mine asked me how I could possibly hit that at that range with iron sights. I told him, its easy. I then setup 5 milk jugs full of water at 200 yards, and shot them one after another from prone with my 03a3- 3 of the jugs were 1/2 to 2/3 obscured by a rise in the terrain. It wasn't difficult but my friends were in awe. I told them that the 10-ring I shoot at from standing position is pretty close to the size of a milk jug, and I usually score between 96-98 from that position shooting highpower

I'm not a very good paper shooter, but I can hit things when I need to hit them from every position, and lefthanded if necessary.

So what is good off hand shooting? Given a 1moa rifle and good ammo and no wind what can you expect? How about this as a straw man?
100 yards off hand -
1 moa - impossible
3 moa - unbelievable
6 moa - great shooting (means you're keeping all shots in a 6" circle)
10 moa - good
14 moa - acceptable
20 moa - go back to basics and start at 25 yards.

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I've seen a high master high power rifle shooter shoot about 2 moa at 200 yards (4" grouping) from standing. I pulled his targets that day- and he's around 70 years old. From a prone position he was capable of shooting very close to the mechanical potential of the rifle, and he was using a very high end match prepped service rifle. It probably took him a better part of his lifetime to master these skills, but its a worthwhile goal for any shooter.

I was taught to never stand when you can kneel, never kneel when you can sit, and never sit when you can go prone. I don't mind people that want to shoot just standing, but I personally prefer to take a rest whenever I can. I practice offhand with my rifles occassionally, but certainly not most of the time. I believe that practicing off a rest allows you to concentrate on fundamental things like breathing and trigger control.

I can't even remember the last time I took an unsupported shot at game, probably Arizona in the mid-80's. If you're stand hunting it's easy to get a rest, when stalking I've almost always had the opportunity to go to a kneeling or sitting position, lean against a tree, or use SteadyStiks.

As far as guns shooting MOA:
My BAR's won't shoot MOA
My Ruger 77 RSI in .308 will for three shots but only with 150 gr. SST loads
My 7x57 Mauser will almost always stay MOA for five shots
My .300 Winny won't quite make
My .458 Winnie Mauser will for three shots.
And my .223 and .243 varmint/target guns better do MOA or I am doing something seriously wrong.

I'll admit, shooting at paper targets is not fun, but reactive targets are. Shoot at a plastic soda bottle at 50 yards or a bleach bottle at 100 yards offhand with a mosin nagant is huge fun and will develop ones skills.

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Did you know that an M44 at 50 yards will take a full can of orange sams club soda and turn it into a completely flat and dry piece of metal. Another plus is when you go to pick up the trash/targets down range smells good.

Back to the original posters comments. I understand what he is saying, people talk alot of trash and most of the people at the range can't shoot worth a crap. I can shoot off a bench pretty good, hell at my parents house I was cutting playing cards in half at about 30 yards with a 10/22, bulk ammo, and a $30 scope. I don't know how impressive that is to anyone else but no one else in my family could do it.

I guess the reason most/alot of people only want to shoot from the bench, is that it is satisfying to make one ragged hole or at the least a nice tight group It would make me very happy to shoot a sub moa group off the bench with a scope but to shoot a 6 moa with a sks standing would be like whatever, even though the latter would be a much greater feat.

I hope you guys are tracking what I'm saying, it seems to me to be some kind of mental thing. Only ragged holes are good.

Honestly I can't blame the guys. I come on the internet and read about a $150 surplus sks shooting 2 moa with wolf. Why would I settle for less than 1moa from anything else.

If you rifle shoots MOA, discounting flyers, it's not an MOA rifle.

My definition of an MOA rifle is one that will shoot 10 rounds into 1.041 inches at 100 yards 10 times in a row.

I have been to the range and seen so called 'sub moa' rifles where 3 rounds are within an inch - an a bunch weren't. That's just luck, not precision (which if different than accuracy)

I was at a local gun shop, and the guy on the stool proclaimed that all a rifle has to do is "hit inside the fur."

On a deer.

Sorry, but that's not "precise" enough. I'm too old and fat, and too nice, to chase Bambi's mama three our four miles because all I did was "hit inside the fur."

This is all pretty interesting. A friend of mine ask me to help him buy a gun to shoot. So I made him a list of nearly every rifle manufacturer I believe it is mostly the shooter. I have always been lucky shooting. I equate Shooting as ZEN. On a good day you and the target are one with the rifle as a part of you. I was a sniper for many years used an M-21 system with Leatherwood ART scope. Very thick crosshairs on that one. Used to shoot oranges at 300 meters although they would be hidden under the crosshairs. I still shoot long range and for the most part carry a 300 meter zero on most of my guns. I have shot 450 meter off hand with a K-98 Mauser iron sights. I don't know what the MOA of the Mauser is and don't care. Practice, practice, practice. Blitz

Would you believe...

Here’s how I see it if anyone really cares…

The bench removes me the shooter from the equation and sometimes that’s a good thing. Now, me the reloader is still there. And me the amateur gunsmith, too.

Shooting for real- hunting, self defense, I’m going to get as close and as steady as the situation allows.

But practice isn’t supposed to be easy. The better I can shoot unsupported, the better I will shoot when I have the opportunity to employ a rest.

Minute of angle? Never shot one of those. Heck, I can’t see minute of angle. But I can see four minutes and on a good day, I can hit it. Most of the time. Would you believe some of the time? Would you believe once when no one was watching?

I just use a bench now as a reality check if I am shooting like crap to see if is me or the gun. Beyond that I really don't see the point.

Since I'm still learning to be a marksman, I treasure a rifle that I know is accurate. Then I know that it's all me. I have no excuses. When I do something right, I see it. When I do something wrong, I see it. It makes it easier to learn.

With an accurate rifle, there are no fliers. Only mistakes.

With an accurate rifle, there are no accidental bullseyes. Only good shots.

Who was it that said something like, "Only accurate rifles are interesting?" Might have been Colonal Cooper. Whoever it was, I think I'm starting to understand.

Here are some groups I shot last year with an interesting rifle, one far more accurate than I am. It's sub-MOA. I am not sub-MOA. That's alright. I know it's me and not the rifle. That's the whole point of having an interesting rifle for training, isn't it? No excuses.



(Edited to add): Found this brilliant article on what sub-MOA means from a hunter's point of view, by Chuck Hawks. Always fun to read what he has to say: Hunting Rifle Accuracy

I haven't read every post in this thread, so please pardon me if someone has covered this already, but here is where I take exception to the OP...

I make no claim to being a long range killer who never misses, but I can and have shot sub MOA groups from the bench with some degree of consistency with my particular rifle. This is important to me for 2 reasons:

1. It is important because it gives me great pleasure to shoot small groups. I hate my flyers, but I acknowledge them, and, I accept responsibility for them when they happen. But on those occasions when I shoot small groups without flyers, it proves two things to me: a) that I have a rifle which is capable of such accuracy, which gives me pleasure; and b) that I am capable of demonstrating that rifle's accuracy through my own shooting skills, which gives me pleasure.

2. It is important to me because I take that same rifle into the field to shoot live game. Granted, the shots taken are not at crazy distances. In fact, they are more like from 150-250 yards. But knowing that the rifle is easily capable of sub MOA accuracy, and knowing that under ideal conditions I am capable of shooting it that way, I am given confidence in my shooting system. Thus I know that, under field conditions and field positions at 200 yards, I am the main variable in the shooting equation, and all I need to worry about what I have to do, and not what the rifle will do.

But that's just me.

I completely agree with The Annoyed Man!

I am the main variable in the shooting equation

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+1!
And this variable can be reduced to a large degree by practice!

I filled a doe tag this year that was ranged 280+ yards, slightly uphill, under nearly ideal conditions. (Negligible wind, 1/2 hr. before sundown, northerly direction, temperature about 20 deg.F., broadside.) The shot was fired from a kneeling position, shooting a Browning A-bolt in .300WSM with a handload that would consistently print 3 rounds at 3/4", and 5 rounds close to 1.25", sighted 2.5" high at 100 yards. The sight picture was dead on with scope magnification set at 5 and the bullet impacted within 3"-4" of the reticle placement.
Some people might say I was "over gunned". The critter dropped dead where she stood. A more humane kill will be difficult to achieve. I had developed the load and spent many hours shooting that rifle from the bench and from a kneeling position. (It has been my experience the kneeling position is the steadiest, quickly and easily acquired field position.)

In my opinion, FWIW, a hunting rifle intented to go afield, needs to be able to place 3 consecutive rounds within 1" and 5 consecutive rounds within 1.5". For humane kills, the hunter must know the limitations of his equipment and himself. If he has the confidence in his rifle, he can acquire the confidence in himself through practice.

Is my rifle MOA? For my needs and uses, yes. For extended target competition? Probably not.

Just my 2 cents...

Poper

I'm sorry, but what is MOA and MR?