My observations of shooting vs the all too easy MOA.
- Thread starter U.S.SFC_RET
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bogie
Member
Factory ammo, even "match" ammo, isn't necessarily the most accurate.
Several factors: Barrel twist and vibrational characteristics, barrel roughness, and the gap from seated bullet ogive to the rifling. Factory ammo isn't seated to jam. Most handloaded match ammo is, or darn close.
Several factors: Barrel twist and vibrational characteristics, barrel roughness, and the gap from seated bullet ogive to the rifling. Factory ammo isn't seated to jam. Most handloaded match ammo is, or darn close.
cpttango30
Member
To elaborate on what I said earlier. I am not much of a big game hunter. Never hunted deer before but I am going this year It will be done from either a tree stand with a shotgun and slugs and from the ground with shotgun and buckshot. Where I hunt you have to use a stand to use slugs or BP.
I am mainly a varmint hunter. Shooting ground hogs PDogs and ground squirrels is a game of accuracy. Not running threw the woods blasting everything in sight. I know many varmint hunters that use custom built benchrest rifles for hunting.
I am still trying to figure out what it matters to you how and what I shoot. What next are we going to start knocking people for shooting a certain cartridge.
I do not really see the point in all of this really. If I can hit the target and if shooting game make a quick clean kill why it matters to anyone how I shot that deer, elk, pronghorn or what ever it was? On the same note why if I make a dessicission to get rid of a rifle because of any reason any of your business?
I am mainly a varmint hunter. Shooting ground hogs PDogs and ground squirrels is a game of accuracy. Not running threw the woods blasting everything in sight. I know many varmint hunters that use custom built benchrest rifles for hunting.
I am still trying to figure out what it matters to you how and what I shoot. What next are we going to start knocking people for shooting a certain cartridge.
I do not really see the point in all of this really. If I can hit the target and if shooting game make a quick clean kill why it matters to anyone how I shot that deer, elk, pronghorn or what ever it was? On the same note why if I make a dessicission to get rid of a rifle because of any reason any of your business?
Brian Dale
Member
From his posts, I think that U.S.SFC_RET is bored with hearing average or poor shooters yakking and exaggerating about both the accuracy of their rifles and their own requirements.
He seems to be arguing that people should do more like you do: pay attention to what they're doing, work on their shooting skills and make quick, clean kills if they're hunting, instead of bragging or fussing about their gear.
Is that about right, SFC?
He seems to be arguing that people should do more like you do: pay attention to what they're doing, work on their shooting skills and make quick, clean kills if they're hunting, instead of bragging or fussing about their gear.
Is that about right, SFC?
bogie
Member
Too many folks have too much testosterone, too much coffee, and too little restraint.
I'm not into "position shooting" - but I am into the ultimate in rifle accuracy.
I'll make jokes all day long about bipeds crawling on the ground. Just be joking when you talk bout stoolshooters...
I'm not into "position shooting" - but I am into the ultimate in rifle accuracy.
I'll make jokes all day long about bipeds crawling on the ground. Just be joking when you talk bout stoolshooters...
Brian Dale
Member
Must...resist...the puns...
Deanimator
Member
To the best of my knowledge there ISN'T any decent factory 1,000 yard .30-06 ammunition. I've never seen anything comparable to my 200gr. BTHP over IMR4350 loads. All I've seen is the obsolescent 168gr. BTHP.
Deanimator
Member
I never used a ball powder for heavy bullet .30-06 loads, because I'm unaware of one that's even worth trying in that application.
I don't hunt (well, once every thirty years or so). ALL of my rifle shooting is for 600-1,000 yard NRA target shooting. I use nothing but IMR4350 for that.
I have a Garand, but I don't use it for longrange. When I shot it across the course, I used IMR4895 and AA2495BR. The latter was very accurate, but had an incredible muzzle flash. During one match, a guy shooting next to me told me he thought my gun had blown up.
Deanimator
Member
That's because without a separate tube under the handguards for mounting the front sling attachment point, using the sling will bend the barrel of an M16/AR15 enough to change point of impact. Such accessories have become ubiquitous on AR15s used for Service Rifle competition.
alan
Member
Deanimator Quote:
Which ball powder were you using in the above mentioned load, and what was it that you needed done. Are you talking about hunting ammunition or long range target loads. In 30-06 bolt guns, I used 4895 and 4350, in the Garand 4895 only.
I never used a ball powder for heavy bullet .30-06 loads, because I'm unaware of one that's even worth trying in that application.
I don't hunt (well, once every thirty years or so). ALL of my rifle shooting is for 600-1,000 yard NRA target shooting. I use nothing but IMR4350 for that.
I have a Garand, but I don't use it for longrange. When I shot it across the course, I used IMR4895 and AA2495BR. The latter was very accurate, but had an incredible muzzle flash. During one match, a guy shooting next to me told me he thought my gun had blown up.
Speaking of hunting, I never got interested, I was strictly a target shooter, National Match Course type competition and 1000 yards at Camp Perry and MCB Quantico.
On the old 5V target at 1000 yards I was, at the time, able to shoot in the mid 90's out of a possible 100 with the Garand I owned, it was a Winchester piece, relatively few of them were made, I was told. I used 4895 in Match brass, with Winchester primers and the old Winchester 190 grain Match bullet. That weight bullet was probably to heavy for the Garand and the powder charge I used, 47.5 grains as I recall might have been a bit much, but nothing ever broke and I shot that rifle for 5-6 years, running 10-12000 rounds through it. There was likely a degree of throat erosion, however I never checked. That particular Garand shot 1000 yards quite well, with the above mentioned load.
The reaction you mentioned from another shooter to your use of Accurate Arms powder sounds like what people used to say about my using WC 846 in a 308. Every now and then there was a hugh orange halo at the muzzle along with a ball of fire. I never saw either of the above mentioned, I was looking at the sights, however at times the report sounded different as did the recoil pulse. I shot the best 200 yard rapid fire I ever shot (195-11x) using 168 grain Winchester Match bullets, flat base and no longer made, using 846 powder. The FA Match bullet shot very well with 846 also, in a couple of rifles I had. In general, as I recall, my rifles, both 30-06 and 308's did well with FA and LC Match Ammunition. Trouble was that I usually could't find enough of it to bother with.
Haven't shot rifles in competition in quite a while, and from what I've heard the AR-15/M-16 rules the roost these days, 30 caliber being relegated to something used by "odd ball" shooters, except for some special matches. That's life.
Which ball powder were you using in the above mentioned load, and what was it that you needed done. Are you talking about hunting ammunition or long range target loads. In 30-06 bolt guns, I used 4895 and 4350, in the Garand 4895 only.
I never used a ball powder for heavy bullet .30-06 loads, because I'm unaware of one that's even worth trying in that application.
I don't hunt (well, once every thirty years or so). ALL of my rifle shooting is for 600-1,000 yard NRA target shooting. I use nothing but IMR4350 for that.
I have a Garand, but I don't use it for longrange. When I shot it across the course, I used IMR4895 and AA2495BR. The latter was very accurate, but had an incredible muzzle flash. During one match, a guy shooting next to me told me he thought my gun had blown up.
Speaking of hunting, I never got interested, I was strictly a target shooter, National Match Course type competition and 1000 yards at Camp Perry and MCB Quantico.
On the old 5V target at 1000 yards I was, at the time, able to shoot in the mid 90's out of a possible 100 with the Garand I owned, it was a Winchester piece, relatively few of them were made, I was told. I used 4895 in Match brass, with Winchester primers and the old Winchester 190 grain Match bullet. That weight bullet was probably to heavy for the Garand and the powder charge I used, 47.5 grains as I recall might have been a bit much, but nothing ever broke and I shot that rifle for 5-6 years, running 10-12000 rounds through it. There was likely a degree of throat erosion, however I never checked. That particular Garand shot 1000 yards quite well, with the above mentioned load.
The reaction you mentioned from another shooter to your use of Accurate Arms powder sounds like what people used to say about my using WC 846 in a 308. Every now and then there was a hugh orange halo at the muzzle along with a ball of fire. I never saw either of the above mentioned, I was looking at the sights, however at times the report sounded different as did the recoil pulse. I shot the best 200 yard rapid fire I ever shot (195-11x) using 168 grain Winchester Match bullets, flat base and no longer made, using 846 powder. The FA Match bullet shot very well with 846 also, in a couple of rifles I had. In general, as I recall, my rifles, both 30-06 and 308's did well with FA and LC Match Ammunition. Trouble was that I usually could't find enough of it to bother with.
Haven't shot rifles in competition in quite a while, and from what I've heard the AR-15/M-16 rules the roost these days, 30 caliber being relegated to something used by "odd ball" shooters, except for some special matches. That's life.
I will go forward and say this is one place where modern production techniques have massively improved.
I have some old 06 ammo in the green and white remington boxes, I bought them in about 1976. i only kept that rifle for a couple of years (it was a loaner from a roommates dad. When I moved the gun stayed behind.) That ammo was shot in a 700 rem, ADL, with a 3x9 weaver scope on it. Some twenty five years later, I bought another 30-06, having a closet full of other calibers and decided to shoot that old ammo. The new gun came with a box of new ammo in the gun case and had a very good 4-12 power scope on it. It too was a rem 700, from about 1999.
At the range I had one box of old one box of new ammo. I tried the new stuff first, I was getting .8 or so groups, all nice and tight, nickel to quarter sized groups. I finished the new ammo and start with the old, after having a dog and coke in the warming house. all of a sudden I am shooting 2 to 2.25 inch groups, WTH!?!!? I am shocked, I pack up and call it a day.
At home the next day, I clean that new barrel till it glows, I check every screw, every bolt, making sure every thing is just as it should.
The next weekend I am back at the range, I try my now spotless rifle, with all the screws and bolts torqued to specs with a torque wrench.
I load it with the old ammo, First shot is nearly six inches from zero. The next four are scattered around the bull but the spread is nearly 3 inches. I take a walk, "what have I bought" I wonder, the gun cools off.
Back at the line I use up the last of that box of old ammo I have opened, again 2.75 inch group. A sinking feeling wieghs me down.
The guy next to me is a friend, we talk, he listens, asks if he can shoot it, I say sure buy all i have is some 180 CT I was going to sight in, but why waste them in such a crappy rifle, He says three shots, thats all, I say fine.....I am pouting and hoping the world is feeling as sorry for me as I am for myself,.
His first three shots all touch, looking like the number 8o but touching....he says, "its not the gun its the shooter".... laughing I grin and sit back down and decide what the heck at $1.50 a shot they better be accurate and lo and behold, I punch what looks like a 45 cal hole in the paper....Darn this thing loves this expensive ammo.
I get home and start thinking about it, so I go to the shop and buy some new rem corelokt and some new federal premium and bring another box of the old green and white.
The result, the old ammo shoots 2.5 to three inch groups, the new ammo, all of it, shoots sub 1 inch groups when I do not pull them. I shoot good, it shoots good. but bring back a few shots of the old stuff, back to big groups.
I have some old 06 ammo in the green and white remington boxes, I bought them in about 1976. i only kept that rifle for a couple of years (it was a loaner from a roommates dad. When I moved the gun stayed behind.) That ammo was shot in a 700 rem, ADL, with a 3x9 weaver scope on it. Some twenty five years later, I bought another 30-06, having a closet full of other calibers and decided to shoot that old ammo. The new gun came with a box of new ammo in the gun case and had a very good 4-12 power scope on it. It too was a rem 700, from about 1999.
At the range I had one box of old one box of new ammo. I tried the new stuff first, I was getting .8 or so groups, all nice and tight, nickel to quarter sized groups. I finished the new ammo and start with the old, after having a dog and coke in the warming house. all of a sudden I am shooting 2 to 2.25 inch groups, WTH!?!!? I am shocked, I pack up and call it a day.
At home the next day, I clean that new barrel till it glows, I check every screw, every bolt, making sure every thing is just as it should.
The next weekend I am back at the range, I try my now spotless rifle, with all the screws and bolts torqued to specs with a torque wrench.
I load it with the old ammo, First shot is nearly six inches from zero. The next four are scattered around the bull but the spread is nearly 3 inches. I take a walk, "what have I bought" I wonder, the gun cools off.
Back at the line I use up the last of that box of old ammo I have opened, again 2.75 inch group. A sinking feeling wieghs me down.
The guy next to me is a friend, we talk, he listens, asks if he can shoot it, I say sure buy all i have is some 180 CT I was going to sight in, but why waste them in such a crappy rifle, He says three shots, thats all, I say fine.....I am pouting and hoping the world is feeling as sorry for me as I am for myself,.
His first three shots all touch, looking like the number 8o but touching....he says, "its not the gun its the shooter".... laughing I grin and sit back down and decide what the heck at $1.50 a shot they better be accurate and lo and behold, I punch what looks like a 45 cal hole in the paper....Darn this thing loves this expensive ammo.
I get home and start thinking about it, so I go to the shop and buy some new rem corelokt and some new federal premium and bring another box of the old green and white.
The result, the old ammo shoots 2.5 to three inch groups, the new ammo, all of it, shoots sub 1 inch groups when I do not pull them. I shoot good, it shoots good. but bring back a few shots of the old stuff, back to big groups.
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