Wow thats funny here I sit looking at my 1911 it has stamped right here on the barrel 38 super..............I look at this box of ammunition it says 38 super..............I look at a couple of bullets they are stamped 38 super....................I looked at my reload bench load data and dies say 38 super...................And your saying its not true................HUH..I need to quit doing this drug called the internet! The high is great but then you bottom out like this and start feeling sick so you have to come back for more until your high again.
Thompson .45 VS. 1911
- Thread starter Treo
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Treo
member
The last post got me thinking so I dragged my butt over to the safe and pulled out the 1911. There on the breech , clearly stamped I read " Cal .45 ACP" I guess no body told my gun.
mesomorphcujo
Member
Oh! No one told you "you don't exist either". This is the Matrix. 
230RN
2A was "political" when it was first adopted.
Ridgerunner665 re your post #44:
Well, by now this is drifting off-topic, since the thread drifted back on-topic, but I see your point --that this pertains to rifles.
You're right, and you're not being a smart alec. I should have pointed out that the 200 f/s was meant for rifles.
I got my info from graphs on pages 322 and 323 of Hatcher's Notebook, showing pressure and velocity versus barrel length. I see that one graph ends at 22", the other, for the Springfield Rifle, ends at 24.006".
Good catch! Thanks!
Well, by now this is drifting off-topic, since the thread drifted back on-topic, but I see your point --that this pertains to rifles.
You're right, and you're not being a smart alec. I should have pointed out that the 200 f/s was meant for rifles.
I got my info from graphs on pages 322 and 323 of Hatcher's Notebook, showing pressure and velocity versus barrel length. I see that one graph ends at 22", the other, for the Springfield Rifle, ends at 24.006".
Good catch! Thanks!
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
.45 Automatic/Auto is a condensed designation for .45 Automatic Colt Pistol. ACP is used more as an official reference, while .45 Auto/Automatic is the commercial or "street" term for the cartridge.
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
Velocity gained or lost with barrel length pertains to handguns too.
As noted, with a quick powder and too much barrel length, you can actually lose velocity.
I don't think I've ever experienced 200 fps lost in 2 inches of a rifle barrel, though. Must be a real slow powder. In my experience, you can usually figure on about 50 fps per inch gained or lost in a rifle.
Unique was the original powder for the .45 ACP round. Its military designation was "Bullseye #5" which has no relationship to modern Bullseye, other than the manufacturer. The switch to what we know today as Bullseye came much later...sometime after WW2, I think.
230RN
2A was "political" when it was first adopted.
1911 Tuner
Angels per square pinhead, and off-topic to boot, but I remember doing some work years ago with a pair of dividers on that graph in Hatcher's notebook, and it came darned close to being 200 f/s increase in the last inch of a Springfield barrel. And yes, the powders were quite slow progressives --"like" 4350 and 4320 canister powders.
And IIRC, Hatcher never made reference to Unique as the fuel for the .45 ACP, but makes reference several times to just Bullseye.
Doesn't matter that much (angels/inch e2), but if you could PM me with a reference for the Unique in military loadings for the .45 ACP, I'd appreciate it.
So if we could keep it on a PM basis, this is, so far, an interesting thread on its own. So let's get back to it.
Angels per square pinhead, and off-topic to boot, but I remember doing some work years ago with a pair of dividers on that graph in Hatcher's notebook, and it came darned close to being 200 f/s increase in the last inch of a Springfield barrel. And yes, the powders were quite slow progressives --"like" 4350 and 4320 canister powders.
And IIRC, Hatcher never made reference to Unique as the fuel for the .45 ACP, but makes reference several times to just Bullseye.
Doesn't matter that much (angels/inch e2), but if you could PM me with a reference for the Unique in military loadings for the .45 ACP, I'd appreciate it.
So if we could keep it on a PM basis, this is, so far, an interesting thread on its own. So let's get back to it.
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
The orginal loading for the cartridge was over and done with several years before our old familiar Bullseye was introduced...in 1913.
Hatcher is referring to the military designation Bullseye #5.
They both use the .45ACP.
It is never a bad question. There is many varieties of numerous calibers, some of which many of us take for granted, but could be quite confusing to someone first researching things.
No wrong question, it sure is better to ask even if just to be sure, that to remain ignorant out of fear of asking a logical question.
There is many rounds that can be confusing. Take 9mm for example. There is numerous 9mm rounds, however we usualy assume people are talking about the 9x19. There is in fact several dozen different 9mm rounds, some called by metric numbers, some of the same or near diameter given in inch calibers.
You can also learn odd things. Like some older rounds have a modern equivalent that is actualy a slightly different diameter than the traditional round. The .45 Colt, often called the .45 "long colt" to not confuse it with other rounds was traditionaly a .454 diameter bullet. However many modern guns are actualy chambered smaller, from .451-.453 since the jacketed rounds are .451, the same as the 45ACP. That means one actualy chambered for firing the old rounds of solid lead rounds exclusively would be quite innacurate firing the smaller .451 rounds that often come from the factory. It would have too much room, not engage the rifling on a .454 barrel well, and have a lot of the pressure slip around the bullet in a random way letting the bullet fly in a slightly random direction off center each time.
So there is different .45 Colt chamberings, and different .45 Colt bullets even though they are all .45 Colt. All will work, but some will work better for a particular gun.
Most modern guns are chambered to work best with the modern factory rounds. However now that cowboy action shooting is popular some new guns are chambered differently.
Many into cowboy action shooting learn that the hard way and are just a horrible shot until they learn the "secret", to use bullets of the correct bore diameter with those weak loadings.
That is something many take a long time to learn because they don't want to seem like they don't know something and simply don't ask questions that lead to the right unexpected answers. Pride can leave one ignorant.
Yet they are all .45 Colt. Many also call ".45 Colt" ".45 Long Colt" because technicaly .45ACP (Automatic Colt Pistol) is A .45 colt as well, it is just not THE .45 Colt. So it could be quite easy for someone that did not know better to make some sort of mistake in communication. To add some margin of error people say .45 "Long Colt", because there is no way to possibly confuse the two, because there is only one round anyone would call .45 "Long Colt".
Another interesting trivia. The .45ACP Thompson Submachinegun has a barrel length that is the perfect length for the round to gain the maximum amount of velocity.
A 16" barrel actualy loses power over a 10.5 inch barrel. The round peaks with a standard loading between 10 and 11 inches.
It is never a bad question. There is many varieties of numerous calibers, some of which many of us take for granted, but could be quite confusing to someone first researching things.
No wrong question, it sure is better to ask even if just to be sure, that to remain ignorant out of fear of asking a logical question.
There is many rounds that can be confusing. Take 9mm for example. There is numerous 9mm rounds, however we usualy assume people are talking about the 9x19. There is in fact several dozen different 9mm rounds, some called by metric numbers, some of the same or near diameter given in inch calibers.
You can also learn odd things. Like some older rounds have a modern equivalent that is actualy a slightly different diameter than the traditional round. The .45 Colt, often called the .45 "long colt" to not confuse it with other rounds was traditionaly a .454 diameter bullet. However many modern guns are actualy chambered smaller, from .451-.453 since the jacketed rounds are .451, the same as the 45ACP. That means one actualy chambered for firing the old rounds of solid lead rounds exclusively would be quite innacurate firing the smaller .451 rounds that often come from the factory. It would have too much room, not engage the rifling on a .454 barrel well, and have a lot of the pressure slip around the bullet in a random way letting the bullet fly in a slightly random direction off center each time.
So there is different .45 Colt chamberings, and different .45 Colt bullets even though they are all .45 Colt. All will work, but some will work better for a particular gun.
Most modern guns are chambered to work best with the modern factory rounds. However now that cowboy action shooting is popular some new guns are chambered differently.
Many into cowboy action shooting learn that the hard way and are just a horrible shot until they learn the "secret", to use bullets of the correct bore diameter with those weak loadings.
That is something many take a long time to learn because they don't want to seem like they don't know something and simply don't ask questions that lead to the right unexpected answers. Pride can leave one ignorant.
Yet they are all .45 Colt. Many also call ".45 Colt" ".45 Long Colt" because technicaly .45ACP (Automatic Colt Pistol) is A .45 colt as well, it is just not THE .45 Colt. So it could be quite easy for someone that did not know better to make some sort of mistake in communication. To add some margin of error people say .45 "Long Colt", because there is no way to possibly confuse the two, because there is only one round anyone would call .45 "Long Colt".
Another interesting trivia. The .45ACP Thompson Submachinegun has a barrel length that is the perfect length for the round to gain the maximum amount of velocity.
A 16" barrel actualy loses power over a 10.5 inch barrel. The round peaks with a standard loading between 10 and 11 inches.
General Geoff
Member
A longer barrel does not equate to more accuracy per se, however a long gun with a shoulder stock and longer sight radius does. The longer barrel usually equates to higher muzzle velocity, which in turn leads to better external ballistic values (which tends to give better accuracy at extreme range).
In short, the Tommy gun and the 1911 probably have about the same accuracy out to ~40 or 50 yards, from a bench rest scenario. Past that the Thompson will have a bit of an edge. However, anything out past ~10 yards, should give the Thompson a drastic advantage when being fired off-hand.
In short, the Tommy gun and the 1911 probably have about the same accuracy out to ~40 or 50 yards, from a bench rest scenario. Past that the Thompson will have a bit of an edge. However, anything out past ~10 yards, should give the Thompson a drastic advantage when being fired off-hand.
P.S. the original reason it was called "long" colt was because it was longer than a couple similar rounds, some of which were also used in .45 colt firearms. There is also a few other long colts that really are called long colts. The .38 long colt introduced in 1875 some like the .41 long colt actualy created in 1877, the same year the army started using the M1877 ball revolver load, which was shorter than the standard .45 Colt.
So at the time the shorter cartridges started to be fired in .45 Colts the term "long colt" was in common usage for other calibers to differentiate them from shorter parent or similar cartridges.
So naturaly it became helpful to call the .45 Colt standard cartridge the .45 "Long Colt" since a .45 Colt could actualy shoot shorter non .45colt ammunition such as the .45 Schofield which was the Army issue.
So "long" colt is historicly correct even if not factualy correct. Names have as much to do with what people call them as they do with an original designation assigned. Since the name was not already taken it didn't create confusion and actualy helped to differentiate between shorter cartridges.
If we all started calling .45 ACP the ".45 Auto", and did so as a community for 50 years, it would be just as correct in 50 years to call it by that unofficial name because people would recognize it as such.
If you think hard enough you can come up with numerous things known by nicknames or synonyms more than thier official names, some of which are almost unknown by thier official names.
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