Thompson .45 VS. 1911

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Sometimes trying to be nice in here is like wetting your pants in a dark suit. It gives you a warm feeling, but no one really notices.

Nice, I might steal that one from you at some point if you don't mind :)
 
What why ban me I am not even argueing tonight? I dont get it? LOL Just trying to be nice there TEX
 
".45 Long Colt" is also a misnomer that likely resulted from the .41 Long Colt...which wasn't a true .41 caliber...and in the attempt to differentiate between the .45 Colt cartridge and the shorter .45 Schofield round back in the day when both cartridges were in service.

And, now ya have the rest of the story...
 
And, now ya have the rest of the story...

Which leads back around to my original post, that the common names of gun things usually have very little to do with what they actually are so confusion abounds.

And more trivia to add to the collection. Interesting stuff.
 
Which leads back around to my original post, that the common names of gun things usually have very little to do with what they actually are so confusion abounds.

Yup. Things can get mighty confusin' at times...

Incidentally...Mention was made of the Remington .45 Thompson cartridge that produced nearly twice the power of the standard .45 ACP round. Think back to the 80s and a cartridge that fell flat on its face before most people ever got a chance to see one of the cartridges. The .45 Winchester Magnum, and its ugly sister...the 9mm Win-Mag, which gave rise to the 9X23 hot-rod that we have today. Both elongated versions of their parent cartridges.

Nothin' new under the sun, it seems...but it is interesting to see history repeat itself, and everybody thinkin': "What a great idea!"
 
I had never even heard of the 9mm WinMag...I remember the 45 Winchester Magnum...but I've never shot or even seen one. I bet recoil had a lot to do with the failure of both the .45 Thompson and the .45 Win. Mag.
 
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Once again, the point was that the common name of guns has little to do with the caliber they use. I am betting pretty good money the OP Treo understood EXACTLY what I meant and frankly that's all I care about.

Trying to be nice to someone and letting them know that there ARE no stupid questions is now an offense on THR? I guess I shouldn't be surprised to see it get to that.

Whatever. I don't really care. I just thought that pointless information serves no purpose other then to confuse, I have no problem with you trying to be nice. I'll just stay out of this one.
 
Opening post questions:
cartridge
The Thompson submachineguns and the 1911 Colt Automatic use the
same .45 ACP cartridge.
punch
The longer barrel of the 1921, 1928 and M1 Thompson 10.5" versus
5.5" for the 1911 gives very modest boost in velocity and impact
energy over the pistol but 10% or so aint bad. They do hit a little
harder.
accuracy
I own a .45 Thompson TM1 carbine and 1911A1 pistol both made by
AutoOrdnance West Hurley. The carbine is a civilian verson of the
WWII era M1 Thompson, but with 19.5" barrel semi-auto only from
closed bolt position. The carbine shoots 6" groups at 100 yds while
the pistol shoots 6" groups at 25 yards, so I would expect the
general run of Thompsons to be more accurate than the general
run of 1911s.

general dust from the belfry

General John T. Thompson was the driving force behind the
development of both the .45 ACP cartridge and the submachinegun
that bears his name.

Colt made 1911 and 1911A1 automatic pistols that used .45 ACP.
Colt made .45 revolvers that used a different .45 cartridge, the
.45 Colt aka .45 Long Colt. Colt also made .45 revolvers in .455 Webley
a British cartridge, and in .45 Schofield a .45 cartridge shorter than the
.45 Colt, and revolvers in .45 ACP and .45 Autorim. At one time, the US
Cavalry used revolvers in both .45 (long) Colt and .45 (short) Schofield.
Can get confusing. There are books on the subject. And experts get
confused as well as hobbyists.

The original 1927 Thompson carbine was a different critter than the
current Thompson 1927 civilian model: the modern version comes in
a conventional rifle version with 16.5" barrel and an NFA SBR version with
10.5" short barrel that requires federal registration. The current 1927 fires
from closed bolt; the SMG fired from open bolt . The original 1927 carbine
was just a 1921 submachinegun with a solid plug in place of the selector
(semi or full) switch and most 1927s were retrofited with 1921 SMG parts
to make them select fire anyway.

There are no internal parts in common between the original 1927
carbine and the current civilian 1927 model.

The 1923 Thompson and its .45 Remington-Thompson cartridge were
intended to compete with the 1918 BAR Browning Automatic Rifle
which served as the US Army light machinegun in WWI, WWII, the
Korean War and into VietNam. The BAR was just simply better in the
light machinegun gun role and shared common ammo .30-06 with
the infantry rifle. 1920s US Army Ordnance liked to keep its supply
system simple: .45 ACP and .30-06.
 
<Quote> 2- Thompsons are NOT very accurate...but yes the bullet would hit harder at the higher velocity of the longer barrel.

Since when does a longer barrel give you higher velocity?

What am I missing here?
 
What am I missing here?

Rimmer...no offense, but the answer to that question is A LOT

A longer barrel gives the pressure more time to push the bullet, therefore increasing its speed. But you can get diminishing returns if the barrel is too long and a fast powder is used. Contrary to popular belief...not everybody uses super fast powders for 45 acp. Back in the day of the Thompsons, Bullseye was probably the "go to" powder, as it was "the original" 45 acp powder if I'm not mistaken.

This would take more time than I have right now to fully explain it...but I hope this helped.
 
Carl Brown...everybody has a different definition of accurate. 6" at 100 yards is terrible by my definition. My 1911 (a Baer) will do 2" at 50 yards...which is acceptable for a pistol.

EDIT: BTW...I live in Surgoinsville...
 
Ridgerunner665 et alia:

I believe you're correct on Bullseye being the original .45ACP powder --at least, it was the standard military powder for that cartridge.

As some points of reference re velocity versus barrel length, the .22LR standard velocity cartridge achieves its maximum velocity with an 18* barrel. Just not enough gas to push it faster after expanding out into that volume (about 0.7 cubic inches) of barrel. And the .30-06 loses about 200 f/s velocity if you cut one inch off the barrel.

Source: Memory of Hatcher's Notebook
 
For the Original Poster for clarification

FOr the O.P. because nobody has stated this and it should be for
someone who wants to learn about the history of the .45 ACP CARTRIDGE.

Note; two guns may be the same caliber in that the bore is the same
diameter but the cartridge is different.

THe references to .45 Colt popularly known as .45 Long Colt, .45
Schofield. and some others are all cartridges that were made in the late
19th century for revolvers. The 1911 was designed by John M
Browning - he was given the task of designing a semi-automatic pistol
designed around a .45 caliber bullet that would approximate the .45
COlt cartridge. It was a time when the development of smokeless
powder which is more powerfull than black powder, which the .45 COlt
originally was designed for, thus the long cartridge. The .45 ACP is
also, unlike the .45 Colt a rimless case, - they don't have a rim as they
feed out of a magazine they work better in semi- or fully automatic
firearms.

The .45 GAP cartridge is designed to be used in pistols that have a magazine length the same as a 9MM Parabellum aka 9MM Luger.
It's shorter than .45 ACP. THe .45 GAP since it has less capacity than
the ACP cartridge, is loaded to the equivalent of +P pressures to make
equivalent velocity given the same bullet weight as ACP.

I hope that helps some.

Staying on The HIgh Road,

BlindJustice
 
For the Original Poster for clarification

FOr the O.P. because nobody has stated this and it should be for
someone who wants to learn about the history of the .45 ACP CARTRIDGE.

Note; two guns may be the same caliber in that the bore is the same
diameter but the cartridge is different.

THe references to .45 Colt popularly known as .45 Long Colt, .45
Schofield. and some others are all cartridges that were made in the late
19th century for revolvers. The 1911 was designed by John M
Browning - he was given the task of designing a semi-automatic pistol
designed around a .45 caliber bullet that would approximate the .45
COlt cartridge. It was a time when the development of smokeless
powder which is more powerfull than black powder, which the .45 COlt
originally was designed for, thus the long cartridge. The .45 ACP is
also, unlike the .45 Colt a rimless case, - they don't have a rim as they
feed out of a magazine they work better in semi- or fully automatic
firearms.

The .45 GAP cartridge is designed to be used in pistols that have a magazine length the same as a 9MM Parabellum aka 9MM Luger.
It's shorter than .45 ACP. THe .45 GAP since it has less capacity than
the ACP cartridge, is loaded to the equivalent of +P pressures to make
equivalent velocity given the same bullet weight as ACP.

I hope that helps some.

Staying on The HIgh Road,

BlindJustice
 
.45 GAP = Glock Automatic Pistol

as opposed to .45 ACP = Automatic Colt Pistol

photo (and descriptive) comparison here: http://www.gunsandammomag.com/reloads/gar0506/

To summarize what has already been said:

.45 LC is an original .45 caliber round
.45 APC was developed with the arrival of faster burning powder to maintain the velocity of the .45 caliber bullet when used in the shorter barrel of automatic pistols.
.45 GAP is yet a smaller cartridge at +P ratings to yet maintain velocity with yet smaller cartridges.

Barrel length influences velocity because faster burning powders are used up by the time they fully burn in longer barrels. Slower burning powders increase velocity in longer barrels because they utilize the entire length to expand.

Hope this is helpful, even though redundant.
 
Thompson were chambered in .45 Automatic and Super .38.
(there is no such round as .45 ACP or .38 Super).
Government Models chambered in .45 Automatic utilizes the exact same ammunition as the Thompson chambered in .45 Automatic and the same is true for Super .38.
Not a bad question but the terminology is getting mixed up, I also agree no such round as the .45 Long Colt.
If yall do not believe me check your barrel hoods.
.45 auto/Super .38/.45 Colt (for revolvers).
The Thompsons are not entirely inaccurate but not on par with many other long guns.
The longer barrel does increase velocity to aid in foot pounds of energy and accuracy to an extent.
 
TexasRifleman:

Trying to be nice to someone and letting them know that there ARE no stupid questions is now an offense on THR? I guess I shouldn't be surprised to see it get to that.

He has just turned 16 years old, on February 16. Give him a few decades and he'll be as dumb as the rest of us. A few decades after that and he'll be bone stupid like me. But I'm being tutored by a 15-year-old who knows everything, so there's hope for me. :)

But there is no such thing as "me." Although I use that word to distinguish myself from others, scrupulous accuracy would require that you refer to yourself as "me" and that you address me as "you." If I can clarify anything else please don't hesitate to ask you.
 
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