Army sees urgent need for M14s in Iraq & Afghanistan

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You are flat out ignoring what I said about training armorers. What is easier about maintaining the SEI vs regular M14s?

Here's a pic of me making a 450 yard shot on an insurgent using the SR25.

file.php
 
h20, i've owned one for years. that's why i'm surprised.
 
H2O Man,

What gives? The M-14 EBR's are being built off of rack grade M-14's at depot not SEI. They are installed in Sage EBR stocks with Leupold optics. The Contracting actions are all clearly visible in FBO.gov if you realy want to look. SEI is not part of the action.

Those rack grade +EBR stock rifles are turning in some preety good groups to (longrangeinternational). I think depot is turning them out with optic for around $2K. I'm waiting on three shipments of those rifles to show up in CONUS and OIF for my unit, so I MIGHT know of what I speak. One of the unit's built their own also with very good results due to a outstanding warrent officer.

For example, you can replace the barrel and receiver of the $6,700 M24 sniper rifle for about $4,000, so that it can fire the .300 Winchester Magnum round. This is longer (at 7.62 x 67mm) than the standard 7.62x51mm round, and is good out to 1,200 meters.
This stratigy page is full of errors every time someone brings it up. The M-24 can be upgraded to .300 WM with a chamber reamer and a new bolt in simplist terms. .300WM is also getting pushed out to 1500m know with differant loads. That Said again a Sources Sought is on the street for .338 Lapua's. It is posted on FBO also and you can see who wants to play:
SIG SAUER INC, MCMILLAN FIREARMS MANUFACTURING, LLC, Pierce Engineering LTD, BERETTA USA CORP(read SAKO), Desert Tactical Arms Inc. I/m quite sure Remington will also submit.

The Government is interested in analyzing and testing sniper weapon systems to possibly replace the currently fielded Bolt Action SOF Sniper Systems (MK 13, M40, M24).

Sniper Rifle requirements include:
1) The system shall be chambered to safely fire factory produced “non- wildcat” .338 caliber ammunition.
2) The action shall be manually operated and available in left and right hand versions.
3) With primary day optic and ammunition the system shall provide 1.0 MOA from 300 to 1500 meters (in 300 meter increments) when fired from an accuracy fixture in nominal conditions. This is further defined as 1 MOA Extreme Vertical
Spread for all shots in a 5 round group at the stated distances.
4) Mean Rounds Between Stoppages (MRBS) with a magazine shall be 1000 rounds.
5) The system shall have an overall length no greater than 52” in full configuration / extended excluding suppressor with a single component no greater in length than 40”.
6) The system shall weigh no more than 18 lbs with a 12:00 MilStd 1913 rail and a loaded 5 round magazine.
7) The system shall be capable of operator breakdown in less than two minutes.
8) The system will assemble from breakdown in less than two minutes by the operator.
9) The system will assemble from breakdown with no change in weapon zero.
10) The system will have an integral MilStd 1913 rail at the 12:00 position, the rail will be capable of maintaining bore sight alignment and weapon zero while conducting routine firing combined with combat movement and operational training drills.
 
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They do need one for every few guys. The ruskies had the right idea with the dragunov. Not a sniper rifle per se, but used to extend the range of the infantry they were with.
 
I seem to remember a member on the forums here with a little blue sticker on his armored vehicle complain about not having the range to engage some ornery folks who had ambushed his convoy in Afghanistan. Please remember, folks, the war in Iraq is largely urban, but the fighting further East is NOT. Afghanistan is *mountain* warfare, with engagements at much longer distances.

This isn't as true a contrast as a lot of people make it out to be.

If someone get's ambushed in Afghanistan at range greater than an M4 or M16 can answer back to, then they're getting shot at with a PK or some other sort of MG (and let's keep fantasies about SMLE armed Afghans showing us or the Soviets the door to a minimum -- the majority of Afghans have trouble holding a 3" group at 25 meters without training to break all their manly warrior-culture shooting habits). An appropriate response would involve 240s, 50 cals, air support if available, etc.

Most engagements in Afghanistan, including ambushes with small arms, are conducted within the same old boring 300 meter range envelope we've been encountering in every conflict since WW1. Range may be a bit further than trading potshots across the souk in downtown Baghdad, but they're not radically longer, and mountain terrain may actually reduce engagement ranges compared to what you can manage from a good elevated position or hide site in Iraq looking out over the tableland that passes for terrain in most of that country (i.e. the original article's reference to engaging IED emplacement teams at long range -- in either country).
 
This stratigy page is full of errors every time someone brings it up. The M-24 can be upgraded to .300 WM with a chamber reamer and a new bolt in simplist terms. .300WM is also getting pushed out to 1500m know with differant loads.

Strategy Page is pretty notorious for poor to non-existant fact checking in their "articles," most of which seem to have been knocked together by some teenage kid who took time out from cleaning his airsoft gun collection to spend ten minutes googling and then three minutes writing a summary of what he scanned online.

The main problem with 300 Win Mag is that it's a barrel burner compared to 308.
 
The EBR's are getting a little fitting, but I believe it is mostly drop in.

I don't need to stay safe, retirement has it's benefits:eek:
 
The real problem lies in the Hague Convention. The 5.56 is quite effective against humans when expanding tip bullets are used. The US should push for an amendment to the treaty. With modern urban warfare, the use of an expanding 5.56 bullet is much better than a FMJ 7.62 for several reasons. The treaty is outdated and needs to be fixed.
 
Ok I have to chime in thanks to TaurusOwner & Deerhunter. 1) Thank you for your service.
2) T- you are talking about Iraq
3) the request is from Afghanistan

I have served in Africa where more bullets and less weight won the day. However in Bosnia I would have gladly traded for a bigger round with better penetraition!
Combat is fluid not stagnant, depending on if you are on defense or offense I remember hearing stories of how the guys in Bellawood (sp?) demoralized the Germans because they could consistently hit at 800m. That is saying something to long range accurate fire being better for open space than city scape and an M4.

I guess my point is there is no one perfect weapon, each theatre presents it's own obsticles for our troops.

.338 Laupa! For everyday shooting, talk about a barrel burner and sore shoulder!
 
The Thomson SMG is not obsolete.

The AR-10 is a good alternative for a rifleman and one that should be considered.

so should the AK-47 variants.



All logistical problems fall under funding and NATO compliance...more or less.
 
The Smith M14s aren't bedded. M14s aren't hard to deal with. The armorers aren't retarded, they can figure it out.

I'd rather have a Smith Crazy Horse than a rack grade M14 that was put into a SAGE stock. I think the Smith muzzle devices are WAAAAY better than the normal M14 flash suppressor.
 
Ash said:

26 M14's in a row in an indeterminate location means very little, though I note they do not have the AR style stocks and remain quite conventional in layout.

Yet, I do think the M14 is a good rifle for the DMR. It was a failure as the general issue arm for infantry, but in this role it should probably do as well as other similar DMR's.

Ash

That's at Smith Enterprise. There's nothing indeterminate at all.

Those are USGI synthetic stocks and they're not bedded.
 
Costs of change are what the higher ups care about. Start small and equip designated troops with the M14, AR10 varient etc.
 
The real problem lies in the Hague Convention. The 5.56 is quite effective against humans when expanding tip bullets are used. The US should push for an amendment to the treaty. With modern urban warfare, the use of an expanding 5.56 bullet is much better than a FMJ 7.62 for several reasons. The treaty is outdated and needs to be fixed.
Using expanding bullets might make terminal ballistics better in short to medium range fighting, but does nothing to extend the maximum effective range of the 5.56, which is the main reason for needing something like the 7.62x51, .300, .338, .50, etc. In fact, at extended ranges, expansion would probably make it even less effective because penetration would suffer. The need for something more powerful, with extended effective range, is the essence of the debate.

Jason
 
It was called .276 Penderson. The Army vetoed it because they already had millions of 7.62x63 rounds left over. The m1 was supposed to be chambered in .276.
 
Jason_G said:
Using expanding bullets might make terminal ballistics better in short to medium range fighting, but does nothing to extend the maximum effective range of the 5.56, which is the main reason for needing something like the 7.62x51, .300, .338, .50, etc. In fact, at extended ranges, expansion would probably make it even less effective because penetration would suffer. The need for something more powerful, with extended effective range, is the essence of the debate.

I was under the impression that our infantry assault rifles were mainly use in relatively close quarters, at least within the effective range of a 5.56mm. Don't we already have designated marksmen armed with weapons capable of taking long range shots? And with all the weight that they already have to carry, do the majority of soldiers really wish they had heavier ammo to carry? I'm not trying to be a smart ass. I'm genuinely curious here. I'm not in the military and don't know exactly what those guys are going through.
 
Horse Soldier said:
Most engagements in Afghanistan, including ambushes with small arms, are conducted within the same old boring 300 meter range envelope we've been encountering in every conflict since WW1.

If you read Marcus Lutrell's Lone Survivor book, he talks about going on a mission in the mountains of Afghanistan. Their task was to observe a small village at some distance looking for a Taliban leader. He describes a very forbidding and open terrain allowing for long fields of view.

Luttrell chose a Mk12 SPR for his rifle (a scoped AR15 enhanced for precision). With both a rifle designed for long range and a terrain that favored it, the longest shot Luttrell took during an extensive all-day firefight and subsequent E&E was 100yds.
 
If basic infantry units often have the need for 7.62 then it seems like good reason to switch to the FN SCAR. Quick swap between 5.56 for close range and 7.62 for long range.
 
Does anyone here have access to the entire Jane's article (not just the summary)?

For those of you with experience carrying an M14 with a Sage (EBR or Troy stock, I would appreciate you take on this McCann stock made entirely of carbon fiber (not a solid synthetic stock) and weighing significantly less: http://www.mccannindustries.com/carbonfiber/carbonfiber.html
 

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I don't get it. How stupid do we really think armorers and our soldiers really are? I met some pretty dumb ones, but none of them could shoot well enough to be given either an SR-25 or an M14 DMR. They all have high school diplomas or equivalent, most have been in shop class, and the procedures we are talking about here are not difficult. Springfield Armory puts out a small operators manual, and it is all that is needed to explain how to disassembled and maintain the M1A. I never had any experience with the design when I got mine, either. It's not difficult.

And while the AR may be easier to take apart for cleaning, it is more difficult to clean and requires more of it than the M14. An operator can fire hundreds of rounds through an M14 without cleaning and still be able to wipe his finger along the inside of the receiver with very little carbon fouling. The M14 doesn't have that star chamber to clean either, and for normal maintenance, there are far fewer small parts to be lost or damaged. The M14 actually has to be taken apart for cleaning relatively rarely. You can lock the bolt back, wipe out the receiver, run a Bore Snake or the cable of your Otis kit through the bore a couple times, apply a couple drops of CLP to the inside rails, and be good to go for a long time before the gas system has to be taken apart and cleaned. And even then, the rifle has to actually be taken out of its stock even more rarely. It's all much ado about nothing, IMO.

We aren't issued SAWs in boot camp, yet somehow some of us miraculously learn how to operate and maintain it in addition to our M16 service rifles. We then learn basic maintence, and immediate and remedial action drills for the M240 and M2 as well. And most of us have no problems with this despite it being an afternoon period of instruction and then never mentioned again. Asking our troops to maintain the level of training needed to actually keep the M14 up and running isn't much compared to what we already ask of them, and assuming that it is too much for them to handle is insulting. Or it is to me.

The real problem lies in the Hague Convention. The 5.56 is quite effective against humans when expanding tip bullets are used. The US should push for an amendment to the treaty. With modern urban warfare, the use of an expanding 5.56 bullet is much better than a FMJ 7.62 for several reasons. The treaty is outdated and needs to be fixed.

For one, the US was never a signatory member of the Hague Accords. It honors the language of the Accords to gain world favor. Two, the Hague Conventions only dictated rules of war among signatory members and those who abided by its terms, and then, only for as long as the terms of the Accords was abided by. This would obviously exclude Al Qaeda and the Taliban. So in truth, we could use whatever we wanted.

Plus, the language of the Accords has allowed us to put ammunition that does reliably expand into service simply by calling it Open Tip Match instead of Hollow Point Boat Tail, and convincing military courts that the design of the bullet is oriented towards accuracy, and the effect it has on terminal performance is secondary to this goal. That is why the current M118LR round used in the 7.62x51 is loaded with a 175 gr Sierra Matchking, and why the 5.56 Mk 262 can be loaded with a 77 gr Matchking.

And any increase in performance this ammunition gives to the 5.56 can also be noted in the 7.62, so even if we abandoned the provisions of the Hague Accords and used whatever ammunition we pleased, public opinion be damned, the 5.56 would still never be as effective as the 7.62.
 
The Thomson SMG is not obsolete.

Yes, it is. It was obsolete when we used it.
Leaving aside whether SMG's as a family are obsolete, there are many designs that are easier to manufacture, cheaper to manufacture, lighter, and more reliable than the Thompson.
When the gun is described as obsolete, that doesn't mean it won't still fire and kill an enemy. Obsolesence takes everything from manufacturing to field use into account.
 
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