"No Guns" in lease. What to do?

Strike thru the "no strikethru" provision!

Bear in mind that striking through the terms of the lease and then initialling it is not likely an option if only because most legal agreements today contain a clause saying strikethroughs are not valid.

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Then can't you strike thru the no-gun language AND the no-strikethru language? If they accept that document that's thier problem. I mean, really, that's the dumbest thing I've ever heard. It's like corporate decided they didn't want to have to review thier own legally binding contracts?

I'm no lawyer (maybe I should move that to the top of this thread?) but that could easily be one of the unenforcable things they do. Remember, a business can put up a sign "not responsible for loss of life on these premises". This is a nice warning, but doesn't mean squat if they are responsible ...
An apartment could have in it's contract "no women" or "no minorities" ... doesn't mean they have a sound legal case.

Better yet, come south a few miles into the wonderful land of Virginia. Hurry and bring your votes with you, this state is going to help swing this election one way or another.

You have the unlimited right to contract, according to SCOTUS. You CAN sign your rights away. Don't sign it as-is. There are other places to stay. Besides, you should probably fly there and inspect the neighborhood.

Which part of MD? There are some places you really don't want to live, and they're more likely to have that sort of a clause in the lease.

Oh, and VA law prohibits landlords from putting that sort of restriction into a lease. If you can find a place to live in VA close enough to commute to work, I'd do that instead. Plus, you can get your CHL.

Check the laws of your state closely. Some states have laws prohibiting landlords from such action. Virginia is one. True, it is their property, but once they offer it as a rental to the public, the rules change a bit.

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And that is the way it should be.

get a storage room near your place. Lock your guns up there. If you don't have a safe then make them look like something else. Ie hide them in other storage stuff. Keep just one handgun in the apartment for emergency.

Move to PA, WV, DE or VA instead of MD if you can. All of them are more gun-friendly than Merry Land.

My feeble brain is having difficulty: You're moving FROM Colo. TO Maryland WITHOUT a job there? Why on earth you do such a thing?

I also vote for strikethrough the clause, sign it and send it back - maybe they won't notice. If they do, find different place.

Maryland, hunh?

I spent two non-contiguous years in Rockville / Montgomery County.

I still recall getting "turned-in" when a CDNN catalog showed up addressed to me at the workplace. I would not have pictured more breathless hysteria had it been kiddy porn. I might as well have been holding a 42 ounce maggot to judge by the expressions.

Hyperbole. Don't you love it? I'm sure time has magnified the incident in what's left of my mind.

Good luck to you. I hope you don't have dark window tint on your car.

Brace for impact.

Lot's of nice folks in Maryland. Rockville was something of a special case. It's jarring, even for an ex-NYer, to land in a place where 40% of the population was (purportedly) on some sort of government payroll.

One major redeeming feature was a hotel converted to an apartment which retained the lobby level tavern. Puts a whole new spin on the phrase "he lives at the bar". Sadly, it's my understanding that James III on Montrose has closed. As far as "firearms friendly": you would be better off in San Fran, Chicago or, for that matter, probably London (oops, hyperbole again, or maybe not).

I also vote for strikethrough the clause, sign it and send it back - maybe they won't notice. If they do, find different place.

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"Find different place" is an excellent option - I'd forgotten that when I missed my exit for Montrose I wound up in Virginia. There's also PA. One of my co-workers commuted from West Virginia.

It's an option people that have lived in Texas (and probably CO) for too long easily forget - MD is little. You can live outside and commute. Thanks to PS for reminding me of this.

Doesn't matter

Had a buddy who had a legal shooting in defense when two guys broke down his door. He lived in an apartment and they evicted him, even though he is alowed to have the guns legally.

They said that he was having to many guests!

I'm not joking, that was why they ended up evicting him.

So, even if you go to a place without this in the lease, you're still going to want to plan on some backups if you ever were in the situation.

I would not sign it ! But then I wouldnt move to Maryland from Colorado ! Seriously keep looking ! That sounds like standard type lease you get from an office supply store ! It might be worth calling them and asking ! always try being nice first ! Kevin

Look at it like this. Its like owning a gun in college. Is it against the rules? Yes. Can it gets you expelled? Yes. Is it illegal and can charges be filed against you? NO.

Move in, continue living.

Where in MD?

Kharn

punchdrunk said:

get a storage room near your place. Lock your guns up there. If you don't have a safe then make them look like something else. Ie hide them in other storage stuff. Keep just one handgun in the apartment for emergency.

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Whether he keeps one gun or 50 in the apartment, the lease still says "no guns." Your suggestion is not legally defensible.

Look at it like this. Its like owning a gun in college. Is it against the rules? Yes. Can it gets you expelled? Yes. Is it illegal and can charges be filed against you? NO.

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Depends on the state, here in NC, it can be a felony depending on the weapon and how it is stored and transported.

Respect the property owner's rights. He/she doesn't want guns there. If you sign a lease that says no guns and you bring in guns anyway, that could potentailly lead to BIG problems, eviction being the most minor of them.

Either move in without guns or find another place to live I guess.

I did the following to an employer once who wanted me to sign something that had a single objectionable clause in it. (everybody in the company had to sign one, I was one of few who objected)

They had e-mailed a word .doc file to everyone to print out and sign. I opened the file, was about to press "print" when an evil smile crossed my lips. Clicking on the text, I found the document was editable ( I could have also re-typed it using an identical font style and size). I simply deleted the objectionable clause, printed the document, signed it, and turned it in.

ta da - problem solved. They have their signed document with my name on it, and I haven't agreed to anything I didn't intend to abide by.

Re-type your lease... leave out the firearms clause, maybe insert some other jargon at that spot that uses a lot of words to basically say nothing if you think a gap in the space will be noticed. Use the same font and style, print it, sign and date, then fax it back to them. Odds are if they didn't notice your out of state paystubs they're not going to squint too hard at the wording on the lease.

Good luck and let us know how it goes.

cerebralfix said:

You have the unlimited right to contract, according to SCOTUS. You CAN sign your rights away. Don't sign it as-is. There are other places to stay. Besides, you should probably fly there and inspect the neighborhood.

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As a blanket statement, this is very wrong. Some states, in this case specifically dealing with landlord/tenant law, do NOT allow renters to sign away rights.

For example, the Revised Code of Washington:


RCW 59.18.230
Waiver of chapter provisions prohibited — Provisions prohibited from rental agreement — Distress for rent abolished — Detention of personal property for rent — Remedies.

(1) Any provision of a lease or other agreement, whether oral or written, whereby any section or subsection of this chapter is waived except as provided in RCW 59.18.360 and shall be deemed against public policy and shall be unenforceable. Such unenforceability shall not affect other provisions of the agreement which can be given effect without them.

(2) No rental agreement may provide that the tenant:

(a) Agrees to waive or to forego rights or remedies under this chapter; or

(b) Authorizes any person to confess judgment on a claim arising out of the rental agreement; or

(c) Agrees to pay the landlord's attorney's fees, except as authorized in this chapter; or

(d) Agrees to the exculpation or limitation of any liability of the landlord arising under law or to indemnify the landlord for that liability or the costs connected therewith; or

(e) And landlord have agreed to a particular arbitrator at the time the rental agreement is entered into.

(3) A provision prohibited by subsection (2) of this section included in a rental agreement is unenforceable. If a landlord deliberately uses a rental agreement containing provisions known by him to be prohibited, the tenant may recover actual damages sustained by him and reasonable attorney's fees.

(4) The common law right of the landlord of distress for rent is hereby abolished for property covered by this chapter. Any provision in a rental agreement creating a lien upon the personal property of the tenant or authorizing a distress for rent is null and void and of no force and effect. Any landlord who takes or detains the personal property of a tenant without the specific written consent of the tenant to such incident of taking or detention, and who, after written demand by the tenant for the return of his personal property, refuses to return the same promptly shall be liable to the tenant for the value of the property retained, actual damages, and if the refusal is intentional, may also be liable for damages of up to one hundred dollars per day but not to exceed one thousand dollars, for each day or part of a day that the tenant is deprived of his property. The prevailing party may recover his costs of suit and a reasonable attorney's fee.

In any action, including actions pursuant to chapters 7.64 or 12.28 RCW, brought by a tenant or other person to recover possession of his personal property taken or detained by a landlord in violation of this section, the court, upon motion and after notice to the opposing parties, may waive or reduce any bond requirements where it appears to be to the satisfaction of the court that the moving party is proceeding in good faith and has, prima facie, a meritorious claim for immediate delivery or redelivery of said property.


[1989 c 342 § 8; 1983 c 264 § 4; 1973 1st ex.s. c 207 § 23.]


Check MD's laws first and see if there is anything that prevents you from altering the contract or prevents the landlord from restricting firearm ownership.

The whole "property rights" argument is a red-herring.

The apartment is your domicile, owner still owns the building. Nothing you import into the building, short of chemical waste, is going to lower its value or harm the value of the property. No one knows the gun is there, it has no bearing on the property.

Other states have blocked such junk restrictions from lease agreements and "property rights" have survived and the sky has not fallen. States that do allow this restriction need to have this particular "property right" trampled into the ground, spat on and then used to wipe feces from the rear ends of firearm owners.

I would move in, ignore the stupid restriction and frequently sprinkle empty handgun casings around the common areas from time to time to rub it in their face.

-T

In order.

1) Make sure you get a copy of the rental laws in the state you are moving to. That clause may be legally non binding.

2) Like others have said, try getting it removed. If they accept it, they accept it. If not you don't want to be there anyway.

3) If they don't accept the removal, you can always ask what measures they have taken to ensure everyone's personal safety and to limit their liability should anything happen to anyone. There have been cases where prohibitions like this have gone very badly for landlords after an incident. Indicating tht you are aware of this may encourage them to accept it being striken as these clauses are there to prevent suits, not to encourage them.

I'm going out on a limb here... and breaking it off.

I see quite a few comments saying "honor the contract you signed". That's commendable and all, but by and large the world is not that black and white.

I'll honor a contract I sign to a reasonable degree. That is to say, I'll honor the spirit of the contract, but maybe not always the letter. The spirit of the contract is "Don't be dangerous and cause us a whole bunch of trouble or we'll kick you out." I would do my very best to honor that spirit.

As far as the letter, it's a CYA move written by attorneys who's job it is to take spirit and convert it to letter. Much is lost in such a translation.

Be aware of the letter, but honor the spirit. Just move in, keep a low profile, and don't cause any headaches for the property owner. Everything will be fine.


-T.

which will prove to be more of a hassle? finding a different place now? or having to move twice? I am with the other opinions that the owner has some rights also. it would be a bit different except that you know going in. how smart is it to go ahead and move in with your guns, knowing the chances are good that you will have to move anyway, not to mention other potential legal issues it could create.

maybe it would be a little different if you didn't know, and it wasn't in your lease...but that doesn't seem to be the case here.

I could understand that in MD, there aren't many gun-friendly choices but it seems to me it would make the most sense to keep looking...or leave the guns somewhere else...good luck to you.

I'm about to move into a place with a lease that says we can't use the house to conduct any business or any trade.

We're also about to become landlords ourselves.

Do you think I wouldn't sell anything I've made on eBay when I live in the house? Would we not bring laptops home and telecommute?

Of course we would. The landlord has no right to tell us we can't, and he doesn't intend to anyway. The lease itself says we have the right to "quiet enjoyment" of the property. But the lease says "no business or trade", which would theoretically include web design or selling small items on eBay.

What we won't do is set up a storefront or have people coming over all day long to meet in a room converted to an office. That's what the landloard really wants to prevent.

When you lease a place, you have a leasehold interest in the property (estate for years), and the right to "quiet enjoyment." I.e., you can't have guns, but nobody can legally come in and see whether you do, either. Use your brains, people.

SCOTUS has not said you have total freedom of contract. If you think they have, try putting in your lease that the tenant certifies that he/she is not a Jew, or maybe he/she has no traceable African ancestry. Have fun with that.

I'd look for another place, but if you must live there, I wouldn't sweat having guns on some libertarian grounds. Just start looking for your next place.

Just find a different place......no guns = no money from me!

Do not move the the Peoples Democratic Republik of Maryland.

If you move to Virginia and find a job in PDR Maryland, you will be going against traffic (unless you are too far from The Washington, DC area).

Virginia also has lower taxes.

What type of job are you looking for?