They’re telling my I can’t keep guns in my apartment!

[svtruth]

Owner vs Individual Rights

WHM,
You raise an interesting point. In the past owners of property would put restrictive covenants in the deeds such as can't be sold to a Jew, Black, what ever. I believe Supreme court voided that as discriminatory.

 

[Vernal45]

Move, then sue.

 

[Zundfolge]

Hmm ... so a "No Gun Owners" clause is legal but a "No Jews" or "No Immigrants" clause would be somehow illegal/evil?

Liberals ... buncha freakin' hypocrites! :banghead:

 

[Otherguy Overby]

Property rights

First, as far as property rights go, there's no significant difference between a lease, and month to month tenancy. As a matter of fact, as a long time landlord, I tend to favor month to month over leases. IOW, if it turns out I want the tenant out, I don't have to screw around with lease stuff, and just give notice.

Regardless, a rental agreement or a lease grants "ownership" rights to the tenant. A landlord could put restrictions in the agreement, and all parties can agree, which may be legal depending on the restriction. But he can't make stuff up after the fact. Also, if a contract has illegal restrictions, it's "voidable" and not really legal.

Next, things about real estate MUST BE IN WRITING, to be legal and enforceable. For example, a landlord might verbally say I don't want you keeping guns here, but, if it's not in writing, it's just hot BS odored air.

A tenant has the right of 'quiet enjoyment' which means the landlord can't come in and inspect the tenants underwear for racing stripes any ole time he feels like it. IOW, entries are subject to prior notice. Now here's the exception: Entry can be made anytime to protect the actual landowner's interest in the property or for safety. This situation is an exception for emergencies like water/gas leaks and other things. Things that could damage the property or immediately affect safety of others or tenants. IOW, it has to be a real emergency.

The safety entrance exclusion would not apply to objectionable things, private fetishes, religions, whatever, or guns, even if prohibited in the agreement.

IOW, even if you SIGNED a rental agreement restriction against guns, the landlord can't come in to look for them. Now, if guns were seen by a maintenance guy fixing your AC, it could then become an issue. However, just because the AC guy saw a gun, it still DOES NOT allow the landlord to enter and search for them. He could ask you to vacate, but he can't come in.

Leases and rental agreements are fairly standard and you can find them on the web or in stationary stores or whatever. One thing in common, there is generally NO mention of guns in them, I've never seen one.

 

[Jeff OTMG]

I certainly hope that the letter asked for HANDWRITTEN apologies from each of the parties that caused you the problems. The letters should contain and explanation of why they acted the way they did and why they now understand that what they did was wrong as well as a promise to never do it again.

While you are at it how about naming names. The individuals involved, the complex name, the mgmt company name.

 

[StrikeFire83]

Update

Under advice from our attorney, I am going to wait and see what the apartment and management company's official response to our cease and desist letter is before I turn this in to a boycott or public outcry issue.

The attorneys have said that in all likelihood, they will rescind their request for me to remove my guns from the premises once they realize that the law simply isn’t on their side. The lawyer on our case believes that there is still a CHANCE to have this thing fizzle out before it turns into a real lawsuit, which my dad doesn’t want due to attorney’s costs and legal fees.

I know some of you will be angry at me for this, but I have no desire to usher in another gun rights “test case†that could take years, just want this issue resolved and to be able to keep my guns until I move out of this $hithole. I am a poor college student who is about to go out into the world and make my own way (read: my dad’s about the break the plate) and don’t want to spend a helluva lot of time fighting these disconnected hippie pacifists in court.

But rest assured, I am no pansy either. If the situation DOES escalate into a full scale court case I will make the apartment complex and management company’s names available for all. For those people who know Austin, lets just say that I live in a small apartment complex in the ULTRA LIBERAL Hyde Park neighborhood, just north of the UT campus.

 

[El Rojo]

I know some of you will be angry at me for this, but I have no desire to usher in another gun rights “test case†that could take years, just want this issue resolved and to be able to keep my guns until I move out of this $hithole.

Why in the heck would I be angry? You don't have to make this into some huge test case to be effective. You have probably done more good than we could possibly imagine by calling these people on this and now they are the scared ones. What could have been a non-issue for these people now requires that they get their lawyer to spend his time and their money sorting out your cease and desist. They wanted to strong arm you, but they found out you won't be toyed with. Maybe they will think twice before they pull these stunts in the future. Either way, they learned you won't be intimidated and tough luck for them. Good job. You did good and you don't need to take this any further to be successful.

 

[TonkinTwentyMil]

No "test case" here?

Well, after the apartment owner/mgt. co. gets StrikeFire's lawyer's letter, two subsequent actions are certain:

1. They'll wet their pants.
2. Then they'll have THEIR lawyers get to work, looking for ways to amend and re-write their tenant leases with new clauses that seek to bar privately-owned guns on the premises.

Enforceable? Maybe, maybe not. But it'll sure scare-away some would-be tenants... and possibly provide grounds for evicting those evil, non-compliant NRA Neanderthals who try to circumvent it... until it's tested and over-turned in the courts.

So, the real issue remains: WHO will challenge them -- or the next landlord who tries this?

 

[Master Blaster]

Nothing will happen, you will move out, and they will continue to lease apartments to folks using the same wording in the lease as before.

Landlords are in the business of making money, they want to rent their apatments for as much as they can as quickly as possible, with the least amount of damage and problems. Going to court costs money, which reduces their profits.

The state of Texas I would think, has a landlord tennant code, like my state Delaware. In DE it does not matter what the lease says if the provisions violate the landlord tennant code, they are null and void.
What does the Texas code say????

 

[Zundfolge]

Then they'll have THEIR lawyers get to work, looking for ways to amend and re-write their tenant leases with new clauses that seek to bar privately-owned guns on the premises.

Lets look at the Unintended Consequences of that action.

• Gun owners will not move there
• Gun owners who live there will leave (either by choice or by force)
• The local thuggery will smell the disarmed victims and crime will go up
• More tenants will be burgled/robbed/raped
• The non gun owning tenants will leave
• The management company will lose money and have to sell the apartment complex to some other company who may or may not have a "no guns" policy
• If there is no "No Guns" policy with the new owners then things may turn around ... otherwise this apartment complex will just continue to run into the ground.

The market has a way of working these things out

 

[CAS700850]

StrikeFire83, no need to appologize for not undertaking this as some sort of test case because, quite honestly, there is a good chance you would gain nothing. I'm assuming that you have given notice of your intentions to vacate the apartment, in which case the management of the apartmenet complex will say "the h*** with it, let him leave." Just as you said, you cannot afford a lawsuit. Well, they won't want to pay for one either.

Others have advised you to document your apartment's condition when you leave. That's just good advice for anyone leaving an apartment, just in case teh SHTF in terms of your deposit.

All in all, makes me glad I own (or am buying it from the bank) my own home.

 

[dasmi]

I know the Clinton-era Dept. of Housing made some noise about confiscating guns in fed-subsidized (ghetto) housing projects.

Ah yes, disarm the poor minorities. Very KKK/Hitler thing to do.

 

[Werewolf]

All in all, makes me glad I own (or am buying it from the bank) my own home.

ROFLMFAO.... Really - I'm busting a gut here... Please STOP!

You don't own your home and never will - even when the bank says you do.

Don't believe me - then try not paying your annual land rental fee to the government. At that point you'll find out who really owns your home and the land it sets on.

 

[Rockrivr1]

As I'm ready through these posts and updates, the only thing I didn't notice is whether or not the super came back to fix that leak. You figure the longer it leaks the more potential damage there could be. The more hassle they might try to give you when you leave.

 

[Sportcat]

Yea...what about the leak!?!?!?

Fix it "for the children."

 

[jefnvk]

What are you going to when they happend to be the only place taking renters when you are looking? Or Thier aparments are the only affordable ones you can find.

Sorry. Contrary to what some believe (probably not many on this board) no one is obliged to provide me housing where, when and for how much I want to spend. I view it as an agreement between two people, with no one else involved. Especially the government.

If it is a big enough problem on my end, and I sign the lease for a cheap apartment with a no-guns clause, you'll bet that I will honor my word. Now, it would have to get desperate for me to do such a thing.

As for the other race issue, I say the same thing. It is their property, to do as they wish. If they are Israeli, and don't want to rent an apartment to a Palestinian, no one should be forcing them to. If they are Irish Catholic, and don't want to rent to a protestant, no one should be forcing them.

 

[Drizzt]

Master Blaster, pretty much every apartment complex in the state of Texas uses the exact same form. I believe that they are required to do so if they wish to maintain an association with the state renter's association. It's pretty restrictive in some areas (like getting out of a lease), but it also pretty well restricts what the leasing company has the right to regulate. There is DEFINITELY nothing in it regarding firearms.

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

Sample Lease from Texas Apartment Association (a statewide trade organization):

http://www.taa.org/renters/2003ApartmentLeaseForWeb.pdf

The only thing prohibited by this lease (which is very common in Texas) is the following:

"possessing a weapon prohibited by state law; discharging a firearm in the apartment community; displaying or possessing a gun, knife, or other weapon in the common area in a way that may alarm others"

 

[fulloflead]

Call the Editor of your local newspaper.

You will probably have to leave a message and they might not call you back. That's OK. They get a lot of "leads" that way and will most likely look into it and call you much later.

Just, in the voicemail, give them the "skinny" on the story and the names of all the people involved including your lawyer's number, the apartment manager, the secretary you talked to and that maintenance man.

Make sure your apartment complex isn't a an advertising customer with that newspaper before you call. It matters.

 

[Spreadfire Arms]

StrikeFire,

im sorry to hear about your idiot apartment complex management. i can see some apartment complex manager (be it in Austin or elsewhere) telling you that they don't feel comfortable with firearms.

however, if this guy had half a brain he could see that there isn't any way they can enforce it. they can only ask you nicely to put them elsewhere unless it is a condition of your lease. you can bet if you try to renew your lease they may try to sneak it in.

as far as contacting the Austin American Statesman about this, i wouldn't. the AAS is anti-gun and would probably backfire on you. they'd probably run a story about "do you know who's living next to you? people with GUNS."

 

[Daniel T]

I was going to bring up the TAA lease agreement, but I was beaten to it. I'll add that no changes can be made to the contract itself, but addendums may be added to the end. These addendums are glaringly obvious, so no one can "sneak" in anti-gun clauses.

I'll also add that I've lived in Austin my entire life, I've never seen an anti-gun clause at any of the dozen or so apartments that I've lived in, and I've never hidden my guns in my apartment. Hell, I've got a couple historical ones hanging on the walls.

<long "Austin is not as liberal as you people claim" rant deleted>

I'll just say that you folks that actually live here should know better. The worst things happening in this city right now are the toll roads, and yer oh-so-consevative Governor's buddies are the ones pushing it.

 

[waterhouse]

Don't get me started on the toll roads. . .that 3 miles stretch they are going to toll at the 290/71 Y leads right to my house.

Anyhow, back on topic (slightly) if anyone in Austin has trouble storing their guns for any reason please know that you can always donate them to my safe. I'll even come pick them up

 

[StrikeFire83]

Thanks to everybody for the suggestions and support. Looks like pulling out the big legal guns deflated this confrontation before it was able to explode. Here’s how things have progressed today:

The apartment office AND the management company got the cease and desist letter from my dad’s business attorneys at 9:00am this morning, delivered by certified courier. Essentially, the letter references the text of the lease (which is a TAA form, by the way) and reminds all parties involved that there is NO provision banning firearms in apartments. It states that the client (me) has no intention of removing his legally acquired firearms from the premises, and that any further requests to do so will be considered harassment. Also, it stipulates that any attempt to sully my record in the renter’s database or withhold my security deposit in retaliation will be met with the “swiftest of compensatory legal action.â€

This afternoon, at approximately 6:00pm, BOTH the building manager and the handy man appeared at my door and gave a personal apology for their actions. The manager’s apology was somewhat two-faced, as he said that it was “unfortunate that I mistook his request as coercion.†I simply replied that it was difficult to mistake a cover letter from the management company, and that I am sorry that he “is intimidated by an armed, law-abiding college student who pays his rent on time.†That comment shut him the F up.

As for the AC unit leakage, on Friday I disconnected the drainage hose and fed it into a mop bucket. We have been emptying the bucket every twelve hours or so. According to manager, someone will be in tomorrow to fix the problem. As it was a very slow leak, the carpet has already dried off I don’t believe there will be any mold.

So it appears that everything is going to be cool, a little weekend excitement. A message on my machine says to expect a written response from the management company tomorrow. We’ll see how they explain themselves.

This whole incident has really opened my eyes to the lengths certain people will go to bully those who do not share their utopian ideals or lofty appraisal of their fellow men. Because I stood by my right to defend myself, some people were personally offended and went out of their way to intimidate me. Today I was getting my mail, and a couple chicks (one of them had a really nice rack) pointed at me and whispered something. They both shot me piercing glares as they walked past. I guess people have been talking **** about me behind my back. No matter, I guess, as I will be moving out of this commune in about a week and a half.

Well, more as it develops. Toodles.

 

[Kevlarman]

Today I was getting my mail, and a couple chicks (one of them had a really nice rack) pointed at me and whispered something. They both shot me piercing glares as they walked past. I guess people have been talking **** about me behind my back.

Yeah well, until one of the women gets raped and realizes that they have no means by which to defend themselves, it'll be unlikely that they'll side with a gun-owning college student.

You did good!

 

[Bob F.]

First: gotta admit I didn't read all the replies, so somebody may have already mentioned this. A couple years ago a magazine, "Soldier of Fortune" IRRC, ran an interview on the last page with a guy running for Governor of Alaska IRRC again, an attorney. He cited a case where landlord wanted gun owner out. Wrote owner and asked name of his insurance co. Would advise them landlord would assume responsibility for ALL safety/security issues in complex as tenants did not need self-defense. Ya' might wanna research that a bit.
Stay safe.
Bob