How to argue with an anti-gun parent?

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My parents are violently anti-gun Democrats. Over the last 8 months, I’ve been learning more about guns and figuring out that their position didn’t make any sense to me. Eventually, I made up my mind, so I bought a gun and joined what they consider to be the Dark Side. :what:

Recently, though, I’ve been getting in a lot of gun-related arguments with my father, a very emotional man whose only experience with guns was having a couple of junkies shove one in his face as a cab driver 30 years ago. He seems to have a somewhat alarming view of humans; his opinion is that people are basically fundamentally irrational, irresponsible, emotional powderkegs who can’t be trusted with weapons. When I bring up the police and military, he strangely enough says it’s okay for them to carry, though! When I mention that civilians can get training equal to or superior to that of law enforcement, he says that training is basically irrelevant because:

“[the police] operate in social situations that come with codes of honor, notions of duty, interdependence, etc, that are always being reinforced, in subtle and not so subtle ways, while an individual, even with impeccable training, is still an individual… Social pressure can help some groups to respect gun use, rather than abuse it… A cohesive group can keep individuals in line better than an individual can keep an individual in line”

I just have no frame of reference for addressing this. It’s always been my opinion that we’re masters of our own destinies and responsible for our actions — and that a part of that packaged deal is that we possess the capacity for rational thought and wise decision-making. He’s basically arguing against all of this. Is there any possible way I can respond?
 
Tell him you joined the NRA.They operate in social situations that come with codes of honor, notions of duty, interdependence just as much as LEO's do.
 
Tell him that you thought alot about what he said, and your going to talk to a recruiter in the near future, since you wouldn't want to be going against your parent's wishes, but you still want to own a firearm.



see if that changes his mind.
 
All of these fine qualities in police are possible. They are far from being guaranteed. A statistic which is cited frequently, is that police are five times more likely to shoot the wrong person than armed citizens are. (The real reason for this is that police are required to be in dangerous situations more often, and sometimes take shots that citizens could choose not to.)

Remind him that carry permit holders are the singlemost identifiable segment of society LEAST likely to commit a crime. (Less likely than police officers, in fact,) NO STATE has seen crime RISE as a result of right to carry, nearly ALL states have seen violent crime go DOWN. As far as defending yourself, all police can EVER do is get lucky. When seconds count, the police are just minutes away. They will take pictures and question witnesses. They are armed historians. Police, by their very system, are prevented from actively looking for criminals based on hunches.

If your dad thinks soldiers are more likely to handle weapons safely and professionally, he should see the copy of the email I just sent to my commanding officer about old, experienced soldiers who are so good they can ignore safety rules.
 
If you don't live at home - forget it and just let them be your parents and love and respect them. Don't bring it up. If they start, miminize your response so that you don't reinforce their arguing with you.

Ultimate pragmatic advice. That might gall you as you are full of the RKBA fire and want to win a parental/kid struggle.

If you live at home and want a gun, move out.

Bottom line. Someone who had emotional trauma isn't going to give a crap about Kleck or Lott's multiple regression arguments about crime or talking about planning to lead a rebellion against tyranny.
 
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Bottom line. Someone who had emotional drama isn't going to give a crap about Kleck or Lott's multiple regression arguments about crime or talking about planning to lead a rebellion against tyranny.
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You're right. I didn't want to admit it, but you're right. I'll stop.
 
I would simply state that that law-abiding adults have the right to choose whether or not to own guns, you respect their own choice not to do so, but you choose to own them, and that you'll just have to agree to disagree.

(Assuming you don't live at home, of course.)
 
“[the police] operate in social situations that come with codes of honor, notions of duty, interdependence, etc, that are always being reinforced, in subtle and not so subtle ways, while an individual, even with impeccable training, is still an individual… Social pressure can help some groups to respect gun use, rather than abuse it… A cohesive group can keep individuals in line better than an individual can keep an individual in line”
Click to expand...

I have a code of honor and a notion of duty. If I see a shop clerk about to be executed I have a duty to keep his head on his shoulders when no police are here. I have a duty to defend my life and my family. Social pressure? The law putting me in jail if I screw up is social pressure.

You will have to confront the fact that your father is operating under emotional context and that any opinion he might have is irrelevent and must submit to logic. It sounds like he is "projecting" his own fears and misconceptions and has given into fear itself and would much rather submit than confront.

Just remind him not to worry, when seconds count the police will be there to save him in minutes. Meanwhile you will be able to do what he will fail to be able to do...defend your family.

This is just a quick right up with flaws though, I am in a rush and out the classroom atm (lab work).
 
Sladuch, I have been in a similar situation. GEM has given good advice. If someone has been in a traumatic experience with a gun we should NOT expect them to debate the subject on rational grounds.

Very likely your father will never enjoy or understand gun ownership but you can try working out a compromise to lessen his fears. Maybe he wants it locked up when not in use? Or stored unloaded? Things like that. I don't know how old you are but if this is something where they will not compromise at all then it is time to respectfully move out.
 
I'd let them keep their opinions if they are arguing from an emotional base since you aren't likely to talk sense into such a person. However one thing that comes to mind:

“[the police] operate in social situations that come with codes of honor, notions of duty, interdependence, etc, that are always being reinforced, in subtle and not so subtle ways, while an individual, even with impeccable training, is still an individual… Social pressure can help some groups to respect gun use, rather than abuse it… A cohesive group can keep individuals in line better than an individual can keep an individual in line”
Click to expand...
The police have protection from prosecution for questionable shoots (and if he hasn't seen any questionable LE shoots he doesn't pay attention, everyone if fallable). Non LEO citizens do not have this protection, and thus must operate with a much more restrictive set of rules on when you can and cannot use deadly force to defend yourself because chances are you WILL be sued even if it's a justified shoot and you aren't prosecuted or convicted in criminal court.
Criminals don't go through the legal process or acquiring guns or training yet they pack anyway, every day. They are criminals. "Irrational, Irresponsible, Emotional Powderkegs" as he/you put it, will be weeded out quickly either through being killed or locked up over their temper, stupidity, irresponsibility, and thus have become criminals themselves. Fists and feet can be weapons too. Their weapon of choice does not concern me, just their actions and how it affects me.
This country didn't become what it is today by bowing down to thuggery or turning the other cheek. Defending yourself is a natural right, and using the best tool for the job is common sense.
 
Stop arguing with your parents. If you live at home move out.

Besides arguing with those that are dead set against private firearm ownership can not be persuaded to change their minds.
 
Don't.

If you don't live at home, don't argue with them and do whatever you wish in this regard.

If you do live at home, don't argue with them, just comply with their wishes.
 
I have two friends that are extremely antigun. It does not matter that I can factually refute every arguement that they raise against selfdefense with firearms and civilian ownership of weapons that are most suitable for selfdefence. They just remain very quiet and next time you see them their opinion has not changed one bit. I have one that will email me antigun articles without having read them himself. I will point out the factual errors and in articles and this person will say nothing and his opinion has not changed.

One of the people that is in germany actually called when I sent him the link for the Boston Legal video where the star shots bad guy after talking about Obama. He wanted to know how come TV networks in America would show such things.

If the person you talking with is reasonable and really is interested in learning about both sides, then explaining makes sense. Other wise it is a waste of words and you are only argueing.
 
1. If you're old enough to buy a gun and live on your own, you don't NEED to argue with them. Refuse to talk about grownup stuff that they won't address with reasoned, civil arguments.
2. If they insist on arguing and you don't want to be bothered, just tell them, "I support myself. I don't care what you like and there's nothing you can do about it. Please pass the rolls."
3. If you're bored and want to argue but not waste time on detailed arguments that an irrational person will just ignore, simply say, "So then you're volunteering to follow me around as my personal bodyguard and will throw yourself between me and a deadly threat if it should present itself?"
4. Don't see them for 13 years. Think of it as a "time out".

All of those have worked well for me now that I'm out of my mother's house, especially 4.
 
If you don't live at home - forget it and just let them be your parents and love and respect them. Don't bring it up. If they start, miminize your response so that you don't reinforce their arguing with you.
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What he said.
 
I ended up in a pretty deep argument recently with my parents and my father-in-law and his wife at the same time about a non-gun related topic. The four of them in the course of the conversation actually supported my position with their examples... but still stuck to their guns (pun initially unintended) on their position.

I basically let them know that I disagree sharply with their position, but I recognize that I am outnumbered from our representative sample by 4 to 1, and things aren't likely to change. But I ended by saying that I'm teaching my kids differently and it's going to be different when they're gone. Not in a heated tone, mind you... I just let them know that I have views that are well reasoned, and diametrically opposed to the a lot of the status quo they grew up on - and that the ideas are what I despise, not the people who believe in them.

My mother's exact words were "I don't know where we went wrong with you." :D

We still talk politics, but after that I think they realize that I'm not just going to accept something because it's the way it was done when they were kids, or because they worked to get something to be the way it is.

Of course, I'm out of the house almost a decade, I'm one of the kids who isn't dependent on them for something, and I'm making grandchildren for them. Until you get there it's pretty much your business to stick to "yes sir", "no ma'am".
 
I don't argue with mine. When I first got a gun, I told them "Because guns are a hobby of mine. Don't worry, I know what I'm doing."

I simply don't tell them. I assume that they trust me enough not to bud in with my bank account and personal life and hobbies. My AK and AR arent any of their business, as they are legally owned, and kept out of view and reach.

also, remember that the words 'freedom' and 'because I can' are great things in this country.

edit: I still live at home, too. Let's just say that my fight for personal independence took some effort.
 
I would honor them as your parents, not get into a fight or yelling match with them over it, but a respectful argument (in the right sense of that word) is entirely appropriate.

I don't think we can win the battle of mindshare over the 2A issue by giving up on people (i.e. voters) to keep the peace. I don't want that kind of peace.

Is there a way to get your father to the range or another event where he can meet and interact with other pro-RKBA folks his age?

Another thought, would be to use his fear to bring up a point he may not have entirely considered. Like if we don't have the means to defend ourselves with firearms, and we abrogate that right to the state, then we will have a society where might makes right. I wonder how he would feel about that? Some newspaper articles on recent assaults and murders that have occurred close by might be helpful as well.

Just Honor them, be respectful, but don't ever give up...
 
To add to dfire's comment, back when Teddy Roosevelt was NYC Police Commissioner he approached the NRA for a training course for the NYPD. This I believe was the first official police firearms training program. The NRA has been involved in police training ever since.
 
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