How to argue with an anti-gun parent?

[Deanimator]

Our country is slowly moving toward the Belgium, Great Britian, or Australia model with regard to gun ownership from a populist point of view.

Actually, up until now it's been going the other way. How many states are there now with NO concealed carry? How many with abused may issue? How many cities with handgun bans?

Don't give in.
Don't compromise.
Go on the offensive and stay there.

Those who prepare for defeat usually achieve it.

 

[SaxonPig]

"...my father, a very emotional man..."

When logic debates emotion logic loses.

Tell them you must agree to disagree. They are free to not own guns just you are free to own them. Arguing is pointless.

 

[Deanimator]

Tell them you must agree to disagree. They are free to not own guns just you are free to own them. Arguing is pointless.

I told my mother I didn't care what she thought about me carrying. If she isn't going to get me a bodyguard or play human shield for me, her opinion doesn't count.

 

[mljdeckard]

I've lived over four years in Europe, and one must understand there is a fundamentally different mindset. Europe has formed a culture in which they expect the government to provide them with much more than in America. This is a cultural argument which is very strong in America as well.

We regard such entitlements as excessive, expensive government. We regard the right to self defense as a fundamental human right. We embrace a culture where, when in doubt, we take care of ourselves, since the government cannot provide such protection either as effectively or economically as we can provide it for ourselves.

This differing point of view is fundamental to culture. To ask most Europeans to change is to tell them they have to completely shift their view of the individual versus the government. Most simply will not do this.

 

[James T Thomas]

"I believe that what you say is the undisputed truth, but...

"Sladuuch:"

Please understand your parents and how they view the world.

They must have been brought up in public education or accepted the philosophy of it, which is generally an old concept called Nihilism, reconstitued to the "New" century.

They believe that if you assert that "something" is "better" than another thing; you are showing a "discrimination" towards that "something" and against the "another thing." By the logic that they have been indoctrinated with you therefor have commited an act of mental bigotry! {Disregard that they have also made judgement themselves about you and your decision}

The rationale, if it can be called that goes like this:
To use logic, to weigh in your mind, right and wrong, good and bad, etc.
is what mankind has done throughout human history. And look at what his value system has brought about by -Religious beliefs, Government and National Identity, Philosophies, and so forth. The result has been the continual striving, dissention and conflict through the years which has led to fighting/ War/ death and famine/ poverty/ crime and finally ends in injustice.

This is, by the way an inductive reasoning -the conclusion of which is never certain, but can only be assumed.

So, here you Sladuuch, a "reductio ad absurdum;" your parents will reflexively
go to the critical thought pattern in which they will maintain "faith"
in their system, and that no other, indeed any rational agument you may render will be dismissed as by definition, bigoted, "hatefull," and not fitting into non or indiscrimination of thought that has led the human race to this point in history. Remember, to them, objective morality does not exist, that no action is logically preferable to another.

An old "Beatle" song told this, just after the "lads from Liverpool" changed from "She Loves Me, Yea, Yea" to "Imangine all the People." They had traveled to India, visited the Guru, were inlightened, and returned to the USA among other nations to spread the word.

I'm describing this because you most likely will not be able to convince your parents of any logical thought on this matter or others either that require analysis and judgement to be made. Don't frustrate yourself to death, but realize the mindset that has taken over here.

 

[moi_self26]

There are four pages of responses, that I am too lazy to read right now, so forgive me if it's already been said. But I recommend joining your local fish and game. All of the ones that I have seen have alot of community involvement and do a great deal of charity work. Perhaps in joining such a club, you could actively be a clear example to your parents about what responsible, honorable, types of people own guns. Whenever the club is doing something community/charity oriented, tell your parents about it and how excited you are to participate.

 

[berrieberrie]

People in Belgium are generally afraid of guns, they see it as something completely useless in this day society, something only crazy people, "gun-nuts" will buy. Or in the case of hunting, as a very elitist sport. And because of some idiot two years ago, who bought a double barreled shotgun in a gunstore, went outside and started shooting (one single event like this in decades...) we now have some of the strictest gun control laws in Europe...

My 2 cents (Belgian citizen having lived in the US): I beg to differ. Of course there are some real antis over here, but I have found that most people aren't really "against" guns, they're just not much interested or informed. On the other hand, once the subject comes up lots of people really get curious and willing to give it a try. Don't forget that we did use to have a (albeit small) gun culture, especially in the rural and southern parts of Belgium: some fifty years ago, almost every household living outside the cities had some kind of rifle (the .22 the most popular), and how about FN and our artist/gunsmiths ?

As for our gun laws: although it has become a little bit stricter (meaning just more red tape), I'd say we have one of the more liberal laws in Europe: 9x19 mm is still legal (contrary to Italy), you don't have to shoot an air rifle for a year before being able to consider a centerfire gun (such as in Holland) and so on... As for our unfortunate incident: it wasn't a double-barreled shotgun (would have limited the damage, IMHO), but a Marlin lever-action, and the outcome could have been worse: look at what happened in England.

Oh, and to the OP: don't try to convert or p*ss off your parents while you're still young and (more important) living at home... Work hard at school and don't act the fool (should you want to get a gun permit one day, you don't want any crap showing up during the BI). Get good grades, a decent job and move out. Problem solved (been there, done that).

 

[22-rimfire]

Europe has formed a culture in which they expect the government to provide them with much more than in America. This is a cultural argument which is very strong in America as well.

We regard such entitlements as excessive, expensive government. We regard the right to self defense as a fundamental human right. We embrace a culture where, when in doubt, we take care of ourselves, since the government cannot provide such protection either as effectively or economically as we can provide it for ourselves.

Here lies the problem in the culture in the USA. The culture is changing and has been changing a great deal since FDR. You had the unions and all the entitlements that the government created during that time. You had the 50's when the WWII folks started their working career with the foundation lain by the Great Depression experience. America during the 50's could essentially write their own book and charge what they wanted for their products because Europe and Japan were rebuilding. Things change. The USA can't write it's own check anymore. The sense of the government providing or perhaps more appropriately guaranteeing more and more of the basic things of life is epidemic. Obama ran on the philisophy of higher taxation for the "have's" and more entiltlements for the "have nots". The government is dishing out billions of dollars to corportions. Families are worried about the future? Will I have a job if the economy slides further? Do you think they will turn their noses up on another $500 or $1000 from Uncle Sam. Heck no. Gun control is so interlinked with the sense that government can solve all our problems. The Democrats in general or the power behind the Democrats want to make the USA into another France or Great Britian. It is going to be tough to fight these cultural movements as the economy slides or teeters.

Yes, the 2A folks and I'm one of them, have made gains in recent years. It only takes a couple court rulings and we're in a sinking ship.

 

[goon]

That's the issue, right there. Sometimes things need destroying. The world is not a happy place where hopes and dreams will fix everything. Sure, destructive force may not be considered elegant (although it is to some), but that makes it no less necessary in certain situations. The goal of a responsible gun owner is to maintain sound judgment so that you know when and where such use of destructive force is required for the greater good.

What he said.
I occasionally have people argue to me that guns or military style rifles in particular were designed with destruction in mind.
OK, sure they were. So what?
Hate to break it to you people, but sometimes that's the only choice you have left. Even police officers acknowledge that every day when they buckle on their service handguns.

This problem stems from the mentality that fighting is always a bad thing. Rather than argue the gun issue, attack that belief.
But I'm inclined to agree that at this point, you're better off to not argue with your parents or even discuss guns at all unless they bring the issue up.

Gun control is so interlinked with the sense that government can solve all our problems. The Democrats in general or the power behind the Democrats want to make the USA into another France or Great Britian. It is going to be tough to fight these cultural movements as the economy slides or teeters.

Without getting too political on a forum that generally doesn't like it when we get too political, part of the problem is that many of our issues have become very polarized. Gun control is often one of them. Many are moderate enough that they'd agree with some of the more centered Democrats but because of gun control, they avoid the party like the plague (I've been one of them). Other Democrats and liberals are against gun control but they face strong opposition in their party if they say anything about it. What this does is basically hand the entire party (and the 47% or so of the voters who tend to vote Democrat) over to the anti-gun crowd.
Strange as this sounds, I think one good thing "we" gun owners could do is join the democratic party. The more people of opposing view points who belong to the party, the less moon-batish the party becomes. Even if you're an extreme right wing conservative, it's still a better approach. "We" can't beat "them" by straight out opposition - they'll just be right back at the next election. Better to add a dose of common sense to their party, at least during primaries.
Sorry if this angers the mods. I'm not trying to get too political - just trying to suggest a strategy that may be able to help us protect our rights.

 

[mljdeckard]

I'm very seriously considering registering as a Democrat. Utah has closed primaries, you must affiliate to vote in them. The presidential race will go republican no matter what, and I don't remember the last time an anti-republican ran for a rep seat. I can do more good being able to manipulate the democratic side in the primaries than the republican side, where I would make little difference, if any.

 

[Vertigo]

@berrieberrie:

thanks for getting my facts right , but as you said: in the south (wallonia) there is still quite a gun culture, especially because there, there is still a possibility to hunt, while in the north of belgium, (flanders), where I live, this gun culture does not really exist. Off course in the rural areas in Flanders, some farmers will hunt and therefore own a gun. But generally, I get the feeling that owning a gun in Flanders is something to be ashamed of and is kept very quiet.

Although you are very right about the fact, that we still have quite liberal gunlaws, due to that redtape, it is becoming extremely hard to obtain a permit anyway.

V.

 

[berrieberrie]

(...)But generally, I get the feeling that owning a gun in Flanders is something to be ashamed of and is kept very quiet.

I see your point (BTW, I'm in Flanders myself, and in a rather large city, too). However, I guess most "quiet" shooters aren't really ashamed, but prefer not to advertise their ownership too much - not too bad an idea, IMHO, if only from a security point of view. I don't mind mentioning my favorite pastime, though it depends on the occasion and the people present.

Although you are very right about the fact, that we still have quite liberal gunlaws, due to that redtape, it is becoming extremely hard to obtain a permit anyway.

It takes a little longer and you need to provide a little bit extra paperwork, but it really hasn't become harder for a law-abiding citizen. And there are some upsides, such as a reasonably fast and almost costless means of appeal should your permit be denied (under the old system, you had to start a procedure at the Court of State).

Anyway, don't let waiting periods and misguided persons discourage you from joining us. We're generally a friendly and welcoming bunch.