Confrontation: A double-edged sword

People around here (Maine) are very civil, by and large. It's a rural state, and a poor one, and the cities are very blue collar. People don't have the time or energy, especially this time of year, to get all worked up over waiting for their coffee or getting cut off in what passes for traffic. You aren't in a hurry, the other guy is, and besides, you know there's a good chance there's a cop waiting for him on the other side of the blind hill.

Then there's the fact that we reportedly have the highest firearm ownership rate in the United States.

But most important, none of the locals wants to be mistaken for a tourist. Whining, complaining, hissing, doing a slow burn over a five minute wait, demanding refunds and discounts for slightly sub-par experiences, demanding substitutions at restaurants owing to your "special diet", asking a million technical questions of some poor country girl making minimum wage, fumbling for your wallet at the cash register, using a credit card for everything -- that's tourist behavior. And we don't do that.

I second that Duke, me being a Mainer and all. It can be pretty entertaining to watch when it does happen though can't it?

Rural Mississippi is a lot like where Duke lives, it seems.


... except for the Wal-Mart.


-- John

Rural Mississippi is a lot like where Duke lives, it seems.


... except for the Wal-Mart.

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Same here in Ky.

Yeah, you all know it, it's better to keep your mouth shut, and be thought of as a coward, than it is to open it and prove you are a flatlander.

I have travelled all over your fine country, by road, and usually managed to stick to rural areas.

The level of civility that I found in rural Maine, upstate NY, rural NorCal, NW Texas, eastern Missouri and the Appalachian states was a joy to behold. There are some mighty fine folk living on the land or in small towns...and I have no doubt that many of them were armed.

There may or may not be a cause effect in that latter regard -i.e. an armed society is a polite society- but I also know that living in 'non-CCW' low density areas where everyone knows most everyone else generally also helps to promote civil behaviour and language.

Folk literally get away with murder in the anonymity of huge metro areas.

If one is going to carry a defensive weapon, they'd better be relaxed and willing to give way to rude behavior.
In PA, we must retreat (if possible) before using a weapon for self defense. To do otherwise is to invite criminal charges against us...in my opinion, the criminal charges would be justified if we did nothing to avoid the altercation (although that can be mighty tough sometimes!).

Maine...I'd love to live in Maine! I know I'd fit well as my mentality goes back to the 1950's! And that is NOT meant to be denigrating!

Glockman: "Maine...I'd love to live in Maine! I know I'd fit well as my mentality goes back to the 1950's! And that is NOT meant to be denigrating!"

It is pretty retro, in a good way.

It's an interesting world. People buy and use things that nobody has used in other parts of the country for decades. Likewise, when I travel in other parts of the country I see many things that simply do not exist in Maine. Nobody is in a hurry, and if they are you're going to hear all about the reason why later over a few after you kid the fellow for rushing around like that, scaring people.

Yes, tourist observation is an amusing pastime. Thankfully they keep a lot of folks in groceries over the summertime, paying five times what we do for seafood. They buy theirs over white tablecloths on the waterfront among fellow tourists, we buy ours at the gas station and cook it all up at home with friends. Same boat. Same crustaceans.

Making the choice to carry or even own a gun puts you at a higher level weather you want it that way or not.

You and I and all that are in this condition owe it to our fellow brothers to stand above the crowd and show others that we can be relied on to maintain a standard of excellence that they could only hope to achieve.

If ever in a situation that tests our metal, we should be able to walk away from it without letting ego and macho govern our reactions.

If you made the choice to carry a firearm, that is a condition that comes with the turf.

Should you walk away from a confrontation because our society appears to be deteriorating? The choice is yours and yours alone. If you are carrying a gun, I feel the answer could be a "yes" lest the condition escalate beyond what was ever expected. It is almost like a curse we have to live with. On the other hand, if you are willing to get involved, then you should be willing to take whatever may come your way. This also includes a butt kickin' if it goes in that direction but under no circumstances should your firearm be a factor in your decision. I suppose that goes without saying but involvement in a confrontation is by definition, involvement, and involvement can lead to just about anything.

Since I started "carrying" I have personally become a more peaceful person and today I actually had to remind a fellow CCW to cool his jets when he told us a story about how someone yelled at him when he pulled a little too far into an intersection.

He told us of terms like A-hole being thrown around and fingers being displayed.

I had a serious conversation with him about it and I honestly think he saw the light after setting up a few scenarios that "could" have happened but thankfully didn't.

It was a poor choice on his part on how to "resolve" that particular situation from a rude pedestrian.

I agree society is going down the pooper but cautious action as to how to correct it is also in order.

I don't live in a rural area, I'd like to but it isn't feasible right now.
After reading the first post I have to ask my self am I going to make the situation better by intervening or not? And I just don't think I am. I've heard that your basic personallity is formed by 5 years old, so if you're a bully then you'll be a bully when you're 25,35 and 65. All that's going to happen if I call you on your behavior to the guy behind the register is you're going to get mad.

Worse, you might get mad and push back and WHAMO! I am now right in the middle of a confrontation that I unarguably started and I have a gun. Double Plus Not Good.

I believe I'd do more good by going out of my way to be that much more polite to the checker.

The only exception would be if the bully went and complained to the boss then I'd have to say something if the complaint was un merited.

So, sorry for the long winded first post, I've been a guest for a while but this thread resonated and I really wanted to take part in the discussion.

Society may be getting progressively less civil, the number of outright sociopaths may even be increasing exponentially, but you know what? I can't fix it.

I have become convinced that nothing I can say to a self-centered, belligerent oaf - no matter how "right" or "brilliant" my comments may be - will magically change him into a caring, considerate, socially responsible individual. Why get involved in his crappy life - even for a moment?

Saying anything at all is a waste of breath at best - and could be the precipitating factor in a potentially deadly encounter at worst.

And that could ruin an otherwise lovely day.

While I understand, and agree to a degree, with what you have written, I prefer to avoid confrontation if at all possible. I've got too much to lose to be walking around righting all the world's wrongs.

Face it, if you have to shoot someone (even if they start it) you are facing a mountain of potentially expensive problems. Possible legal trouble and more than likely a civil suit. Even if you win the civil suit, your lawyer won't be cheap.

Since Heinlein seems to be one of our heroes on here, I thought I'd toss this into this discussion...it's one of his statements that has haunted me ever since i first read it. It comes from "Friday", copyright 1982.
There is also a very close description of the internet - written in the early 80's!
Her boss asked her "what are the marks of a sick culture?', and after her reply says "but a dying culture invariably exhibits personal rudeness. Bad manners. Lack of consideration for others in minor matters. A loss of politeness, of gentle manners, is more significant than a riot"...."This symptom is especially serious in that an individual displaying it never thinks of it as a sign of ill health but as proof of his/her strength".
Sounds too familiar.

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Looking forward to visiting Maine in September.

Otherwise, down here in Louisiana, where anyone who can own a gun is legal to carry a loaded gun in the car -- no permit -- we just don't have much road range.

Interesting.

So here is my concern: As a society, are we not creating a worse situation by allowing this behavior to go unchecked? I mean, people who behave in such ways tend to push until pushed back, and by allowing them to push harder and harder, are we possibly creating a situation in where the push back comes only at a level that involves deadly force?

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Yes. But we can blame it on the laws we have to follow and all the lawyers that'll ruin you financially to back it up. We created a society where rudeness and arrogance can not only be excused, but make you rich if you pick the right person and situation.
There's a bad streak of arrogance running through a lot of people who can't back it up except through their attorney. If you call them on it and things get out of hand you won't lose physically but they'll take your house, over something stupid, and they know it.
I'm not sure how to fix/cure that. De-escalation is the only solution we have unfortunately and some people who deserve to be taught a lesson will go on being a-holes either indefinitely or until someone smacks them down and that person will be put in prison or in the poor house whether they are a bad guy or a good guy.
I live in a semi-rural area and I agree that the folks out here are much more polite than the big city people.

Looking forward to visiting Maine in September.

Otherwise, down here in Louisiana, where anyone who can own a gun is legal to carry a loaded gun in the car -- no permit -- we just don't have much road range.

Interesting.

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Swing through Vermont, Tom. It's a beautiful place. Vermont, the only thing you don't need a permit for, is carrying a gun.

Well, its at least nice to see Maine getting some love in this thread

Perhaps society is more violent than it once was and the norms of acceptable behavior have changed.

Frequently, these are people who don’t know how to deal with anger, fear, or frustration in their daily lives.

Alas, no specific geographical, political, or cultural region is exempt from this unfortunate scourge, one that really does inflict long-lasting mental and physical harm on thousands of folks.

Society in general, and I refer not just to the US, has become much more dangerous to live in. When I was young and pulled crap, (like when I told my younger cousin to pee on the electric fence), I got wolloped good, and learned a lesson. Today my dad would have been charged for child abuse.
I've worked with a lot of inmates including kids from min to max in the Ohio prison system and what I learned is 99% really don't give a damn about anyone or anything. What they do care about is what can they do next after they leave prison w/o getting caught. That seems to be the general philosophy of the majority, look at business leaders (Madoff come to mind), gangstas, and petty criminals.
As far as diffusing or resolving a confrontation, I will do everything I can including walking away. However there are sometimes I can't.
I was involved in an attempted car jacking a few years ago, 3 kids, (2 black, 1 white) approached me in a wheel chair spot in a parking lot in broad daylight. One approached the driver side while the other two came to the passenger side. The one kid stuck his head in my window asking for spare change at the same time one on passenger side jerked the other door open. The kid on my side discovered he had my gun pointed at his head and that's all it took to diffuse/resolve the problem. I didn't bother to chase a cop down, I knew they wouldn't show up, I'm just very glad I didn't pull the trigger.

We are living in what I call a "gimme" and instant gratification society whether is greed from CEO's or from the kid on the streets robbing and stealing.

By and large, South Carolina is still the calm, poliste, hospitable south y'all know and love.

Now, I do live in Myrtle beach, which means we get our fair shair of drunken tourists and kids for senior week/spring break. Apparently, for every cheap miller high-life a 21 year old male ingests, he gains 15 lbs of muscle and the ability to bench an extra 35lbs. We've had to bring a couple back down to Earth on more than one occasion.

I don't ever remember being a drunken you-know-what when I was that age. (All of four years ago.) But I guess by the time I was 21, I had been married and a father for two years already.

Still, for the majority, people are still very non-confrontational down here. Still very "yes ma'am" and "yes sir."

Ok, I have a theory , but first lets discuss me since this might be relevant.

I grew up in a place in the Northeast of England, called Newcastle upon Tyne, now Newcastle is a relatively unique place including the accent and dialect, but its English so culturally its kind of similar (but not the same) as all Anglo cultures. Newcastle is what might be described as a relatively rough city, not gang related, but there were street fights pretty much every Friday/Saturday night in the downtown areas, and going into the wrong bar can lead to some unfortunate consequences.

Now on leaving Newcastle, working across the UK, then coming to Seattle. I began to identify that I was being perceived as untrustworthy, in the UK I figured it was my accent, and prejudice, but in the US it was a little different, everyone loved the accent; even though no-one could place it. I've been called everything from a Kiwi, through to Norwegian.

Obviously this caused me some frustration, and a little consternation, as I tried to figure out what about me, and my body language was being identified as untrustworthy. When one day someone told me I avoid eye contact, hearing this and taking it on board, made me think. Yes I did, because where I come from eye contact is a precursor to physical contact, either violent, or amorous.

So what this taught me, is that people have expectations or your behavior that might (or might not) be reasonable from you. Depending on how you react to this, can make you appear belligerent, or submissive. Being polite, and having "good manners" is cultural, as shown my my story .

The problem lies I believe (my theory) in population density, the higher the population density the stronger people want to hold on to their culture Boston Irish, New York Irish or Italian, Scandinavians in Minnesota and Seattle, etc. etc. (many of whom are several generations from Ireland, Italy or Scandinavia). This leads to clashes in culture, and sometimes bluff belligerence, inappropriate aggression or downright prejudice (both from the perceiver and the perceived), multicultural is not multicultural unfortunately, we don't socially evolve that quickly. There is also a higher degree of stress in large cities that is not present in smaller towns, that can trigger more fight/flight responses earlier.

This doesn't mean that according to my theory that we're in any less or more danger than we currently are. I do believe that there are very likely many situations that escalate due to mistaken communications, or inappropriate aggression due to the population density and cultural issues I outlined above.

I'm basing this theory on a couple of factors. my experiences where I was raised, through the UK and in the US. My experiences in smaller towns and communities and larger cities, where social patterns predictably break down once you get above a population of about 100. Finally anthropological evidence, that shows humans evolved to be social to a point, it's rare to see "in the wild" humans in groups of more than about 50-75 or so. Yes collections of communities are bigger, and genetic transfer happens between them for good reason, but these communities gather occasionally, and in general have competitive games during these times, perhaps to relieve pent up stress and aggression in a controlled manner.

MachIVshooter

Confrontation: A double-edged sword

So here is my concern: As a society, are we not creating a worse situation by allowing this behavior to go unchecked? I mean, people who behave in such ways tend to push until pushed back, and by allowing them to push harder and harder, are we possibly creating a situation in where the push back comes only at a level that involves deadly force?

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Yes, our society in general is making matters worse by reinforcing bad behavior.

Not only your example, but also look at our tax policy of subsidizing those who refuse to try to succeed, and punishing those who do succeed. This is a system which is designed to fail.

Regardless of what the majority of people in this country do, you have to make the personal decision if and when you act in an aggressive manner, up to and including using deadly force. There are several threads on THR which discuss the complex legal ramifications of using deadly force.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=425907