igor
Member
Ok, JA wins... :banghead: 
Any AK fans here?
- Thread starter 10mmshooter
- Start date
- Status
JA
Member
Igor,
Try some handloads with 7.9mm bullets and you will be surprised how much smaller you groups will be. I tried 7.82mm bullets that resulted in 100-150mm groups depending on bullet design and weight. Also 7.87mm bullets that were better with 76mm groups.
What brand of ammo did you use to get your 80mm groups?
Try some handloads with 7.9mm bullets and you will be surprised how much smaller you groups will be. I tried 7.82mm bullets that resulted in 100-150mm groups depending on bullet design and weight. Also 7.87mm bullets that were better with 76mm groups.
What brand of ammo did you use to get your 80mm groups?
Ok, now for those of us who reload ammo using U.S. components...
Sure. And these would be listed as Hornady, Winchester, Speer, Nosler, and Sierra bullets with which diameters? I've gotten exceptional groups with .310-.311" bullets out of my SLR-95, with the Winchester 123gr FMJ's doing the best. JA, are you ordering special sizes from overseas, maybe the Russian surplus ones through Widener's?
Sure. And these would be listed as Hornady, Winchester, Speer, Nosler, and Sierra bullets with which diameters? I've gotten exceptional groups with .310-.311" bullets out of my SLR-95, with the Winchester 123gr FMJ's doing the best. JA, are you ordering special sizes from overseas, maybe the Russian surplus ones through Widener's?
Mulliga
Member
AK nut here. I was sold the first time I field-stripped it. Even a third-grader could understand how it works.
igor
Member
JA, it was philthily expensive Lapua. Details here.
Also IIRC, the Russian and Chinese loads come with substantially bigger diameter bullets than the Lapua. I was at the very least surprised to get these results! My earlier experience with the same lot of Lapua was that it grouped about 30% worse than the eastern fodder... but this Monday's circumstances were indisputable.
Finnish loads are designed for Finnish barrels and Valmet/Sako made them around 0.05 - 0.07 mm tighter than the eastern block industries. Bigger countries, bigger tolerances, as they say here .
Gewehr, I'd think the SLR has a tighter barrel than the Izhmash produce as well. YMMV.
edit: add pic link
Also IIRC, the Russian and Chinese loads come with substantially bigger diameter bullets than the Lapua. I was at the very least surprised to get these results! My earlier experience with the same lot of Lapua was that it grouped about 30% worse than the eastern fodder... but this Monday's circumstances were indisputable.
Finnish loads are designed for Finnish barrels and Valmet/Sako made them around 0.05 - 0.07 mm tighter than the eastern block industries. Bigger countries, bigger tolerances, as they say here
. Gewehr, I'd think the SLR has a tighter barrel than the Izhmash produce as well. YMMV.
edit: add pic link
JA
Member
Gewehr98,
I just listed the metric measurements of .311",.310",and .308" bullets as I figured it would be easier for Igor to relate to as he is on the metric system.
I use Sierra .311" 125gr spt and Hornady .311" 123gr sp. I ran into a deal years ago on 1380 bullets from Hornady's pre production run of sp bullets for loading 7.62x39mm. They are .311" but the production bullets were made .310".
I load Hornady .310" 123gr sp and Vmax bullets. I have tried just about every .308" bullet in the 100-130 grain range even the single shot pistol bullets. I have found it to be consistant in every SKS/AK rifle that the groups get larger the smaller the diameter of the bullet.
The Russian ammo sucks for accuracy. The inconsistant powder charges,bullet weights,and design of the bullets all add up to poor accuracy. But at the price it is good blasting ammo. Here are the results of pulling the bullets from 10rds of a box picked at random from a 1000rd case. As you can see from the bullet drawing only the rear .003" of the bullet is the larger diameter the rest of the bullet shank is .309".
Igor,
I can see why the Lapua ammo is accurate as it is sized for the barrels of you domestic produced rifles. I have tested Lapua years ago and was pleased with the results as the .310" bullet shot very well. It was the second most accurate ammo I tested in Chinese SKS/AK rifles. The Chinese steel core ammo with .311" bullet was the only factory ammo to do better than the Lapua.
I just listed the metric measurements of .311",.310",and .308" bullets as I figured it would be easier for Igor to relate to as he is on the metric system.
I use Sierra .311" 125gr spt and Hornady .311" 123gr sp. I ran into a deal years ago on 1380 bullets from Hornady's pre production run of sp bullets for loading 7.62x39mm. They are .311" but the production bullets were made .310".
I load Hornady .310" 123gr sp and Vmax bullets. I have tried just about every .308" bullet in the 100-130 grain range even the single shot pistol bullets. I have found it to be consistant in every SKS/AK rifle that the groups get larger the smaller the diameter of the bullet.
The Russian ammo sucks for accuracy. The inconsistant powder charges,bullet weights,and design of the bullets all add up to poor accuracy. But at the price it is good blasting ammo. Here are the results of pulling the bullets from 10rds of a box picked at random from a 1000rd case. As you can see from the bullet drawing only the rear .003" of the bullet is the larger diameter the rest of the bullet shank is .309".
Igor,
I can see why the Lapua ammo is accurate as it is sized for the barrels of you domestic produced rifles. I have tested Lapua years ago and was pleased with the results as the .310" bullet shot very well. It was the second most accurate ammo I tested in Chinese SKS/AK rifles. The Chinese steel core ammo with .311" bullet was the only factory ammo to do better than the Lapua.
igor
Member
JA, thank you for the valuable info on your experiments. I'll be sure to get back to you once I get my reloading started, if I may.
I got curious so I got info on the actual Lapua load I used. The S 405 bullet is indeed .311", that'd be 7,90mm, right? That would explain the results. I've been misinformed on that... :banghead: and you might find the winner to the Chinese steelcore there. I did.
IIRC, my 'smith had measured Norinco 56S barrels to vary wildly between 7,89 and 7,99 millimeters...
He's had good business re-barreling the loosest examples of those from Lothar Walther blanks.
Matter of fact, the Russian white-box ammo from the Tula works isn't as bad as the Russian stuff you've gotten disappointed with at all. I'm going to stick with that as my main ammo.
But, ahem... re: domestic
.
Sako, Valmet and Lapua are domestic Finnish stuff. The Russians and especially the Chinese make their AK barrels in looser sizing. And all of the three countries are different, there was even an Iron Curtain between two at a time, as there now is the north-eastern border of the EU. From your wording I wasn't sure that this is quite clear to you .
I got curious so I got info on the actual Lapua load I used. The S 405 bullet is indeed .311", that'd be 7,90mm, right? That would explain the results. I've been misinformed on that... :banghead: and you might find the winner to the Chinese steelcore there. I did.
IIRC, my 'smith had measured Norinco 56S barrels to vary wildly between 7,89 and 7,99 millimeters...
He's had good business re-barreling the loosest examples of those from Lothar Walther blanks. Matter of fact, the Russian white-box ammo from the Tula works isn't as bad as the Russian stuff you've gotten disappointed with at all. I'm going to stick with that as my main ammo.
But, ahem... re: domestic
. Sako, Valmet and Lapua are domestic Finnish stuff. The Russians and especially the Chinese make their AK barrels in looser sizing. And all of the three countries are different, there was even an Iron Curtain between two at a time, as there now is the north-eastern border of the EU. From your wording I wasn't sure that this is quite clear to you
.JA
Member
I would like to hear about the results of your reloading.
I can say that Finnish rifles are very accurate by the 2"/50.8mm groups I get from my scoped M-28 using military surplus ammo.
The last Lapua 7.62x39mm ammo I bought was almost 15 years ago. It was packed in 30rd boxes with .310"/7.87mm fmj bullets.
I would like to try some Lapua ammo with the S-405 bullet. But the only Lapua 7.62x39mm ammo I have been able to find for sale here is the soft point ammo.
How do you pronounce the Finnish names?
Lapua
Valmet
Sako
Tikka
VihtaVuori Oy
I can say that Finnish rifles are very accurate by the 2"/50.8mm groups I get from my scoped M-28 using military surplus ammo.
The last Lapua 7.62x39mm ammo I bought was almost 15 years ago. It was packed in 30rd boxes with .310"/7.87mm fmj bullets.
I would like to try some Lapua ammo with the S-405 bullet. But the only Lapua 7.62x39mm ammo I have been able to find for sale here is the soft point ammo.
How do you pronounce the Finnish names?
Lapua
Valmet
Sako
Tikka
VihtaVuori Oy
Poodleshooter
Member
Those are just regular Ulyanovsk/Tula/Barnaul/Wolf etc steel jacketed bullets-nothing special. I just snagged 1000 of their 62gr .224" for about $30.
JA, now I'll have to measure the bullets on that chinese steel core that you helped me identify on gunsnet a year or so back. I haven't shot any of it for accuracy yet.
JA
Member
I never ordered any of the Russian bullets from Wideners as I figured they were the same inaccurate design as the bullets used in the Uly ammo.
When I first started pulling the bullets from Chinese steel core ammo to seat Hornady soft points for deer hunting I noticed several things. The bullets are a uniform .311" from where the boat tail taper starts to where they start to taper to the point. The powder charges were very consistant at +/- .1 grain. I think this accounts for the better accuracy I get from Chinese steel core ammo than other ammo.
When I first started pulling the bullets from Chinese steel core ammo to seat Hornady soft points for deer hunting I noticed several things. The bullets are a uniform .311" from where the boat tail taper starts to where they start to taper to the point. The powder charges were very consistant at +/- .1 grain. I think this accounts for the better accuracy I get from Chinese steel core ammo than other ammo.
igor
Member
Pronounciations: (this won't be easy for any of us )
Always with the entire intonation on the first syllable of the word. What I transcribe as "ah" is just the color of the vowel. Single vowels, however are very short pronounced. "Ah" as a long vowel would be written "aa" in Finnish. "R" is rough, like in Spanish.
Lah-poo-ah. Think... Spanish, sort of. La Púa. The name of the town where the ammo plant is in western Finland.
Vahl-met like The Met. Keep those vowels short. Stands for Valtion Metallitehdas, State Metal Industries.
Sah-koh. Very short, think, say... Japanese. Short for Suojeluskuntain Ase- ja Konepaja: the Organized Militia's (this was the '30's, that organization was prohibited after the war as right-wing ) Firearms and Machines Factory.
Tick-kah. Woodpecker. Think Indian, Chicken Tikka.
Vich-tah-voo-oh-ry. The "ch" is actually a soundless "h", just the sound of air going out, very short. Like the first one in "hitler"... for lack of a better example. The "OY" just stands for Inc., and the abbreviation can be said aloud as oh-üh, two long vowels.
Bonus: based on this, you should be able to pronounce correctly: "Alavilla mailla hallan vaara. " (An often heard sentence in weather forecasts, meaning "danger of nightly frost on open land". "
Enjoy, i.
) Always with the entire intonation on the first syllable of the word. What I transcribe as "ah" is just the color of the vowel. Single vowels, however are very short pronounced. "Ah" as a long vowel would be written "aa" in Finnish. "R" is rough, like in Spanish.
Lah-poo-ah. Think... Spanish, sort of. La Púa. The name of the town where the ammo plant is in western Finland.
Vahl-met like The Met. Keep those vowels short. Stands for Valtion Metallitehdas, State Metal Industries.
Sah-koh. Very short, think, say... Japanese. Short for Suojeluskuntain Ase- ja Konepaja: the Organized Militia's (this was the '30's, that organization was prohibited after the war as right-wing
) Firearms and Machines Factory. Tick-kah. Woodpecker. Think Indian, Chicken Tikka.
Vich-tah-voo-oh-ry. The "ch" is actually a soundless "h", just the sound of air going out, very short. Like the first one in "hitler"... for lack of a better example. The "OY" just stands for Inc., and the abbreviation can be said aloud as oh-üh, two long vowels.
Bonus: based on this, you should be able to pronounce correctly: "Alavilla mailla hallan vaara. " (An often heard sentence in weather forecasts, meaning "danger of nightly frost on open land". "
Enjoy, i.
P95Carry
Moderator Emeritus
Igor - excellent effort!
Fatelvis
Member
Is the SAR-1 the plentiful "Romanian" version, I see everywhere? If not, where do they sell `em reasonably?
JA
Member
Thank you very much Igor. I will practice my Finnish pronunciation now that I know how to say Sako correctly instead of as I have heard it said all my life as Say-ko.
acaptbill
Member
I purchased a SAIGA 308-1. There was no owners manual with it. Does anyone know where I might get one? If someone could copy theirs into a e-mail form that would be great.
Tks,
capt. Bill
Tks,
capt. Bill
TimH
Member
TimH
Member
Its a blast from the past
- Status
