Scenario...What Would You Do?

King · Nov 11, 2003

You're sitting in a restarant with your back to the wall (conditon yellow as is your custom). Two armed BG's enter the restarant with arms drawn. One BG guards the door, the other moves into dining area and begins to shoot people randomly.

You're packing and decide to act on the situation given that you are committed, skilled and certain you can get a clean shot at either BG.

All things equal...opportunity, distance, risk...which guy do you take first?

1) The guy guarding the door and hope that shooter didn't see you take him out? Then the shooter while he's trying to identify you?

2) Take the shooter first and then his friend guarding the door? You hope that you can quickly acquire the BG into your sites before he get to you?

3) Some other method that doesn't call for you to escape the carnage, call 911, or failure to act for some reason. You are committed to acting.

This scenario is could pretty easily go down. What would you do?

DragonRider · Nov 11, 2003

Engage active shooter and engage the guarding one as soon as possible, but that is given the info in the scenario. Active gets 3, while I'm moving and the engage door guarder gets until dropped. Not the best planning with leaving a possible behind you, but alot would depend on the layout, such as is he in the same row of the restaurant or not.

If eating with Girlfriend, after my initial 3, she would primary goto active shooter and make sure he is down and out.

More to the point, what would you do, after you successively engaged and dealt with active shooter, and the backup/guarder went out the door, would you follow??

John,

Awaiting further education on ideas.

Powderman · Nov 11, 2003

Engage shooter, COM hits, at least 2X.

As you engage, move laterally, engage shooter by the door.

If the shooter leaves, DO NOT FOLLOW.

Maintain readiness, have bystanders or staff call 911. Ensure that they give a complete description of you as the good guy.

When officers arrive, holster your weapon immediately. Hands behind the head, down to your knees, follow the officer's directions.

Dr.Rob · Nov 11, 2003

Depends.. if the guy by the door is closer.. you need to engage him on the way to stopping the guy shooting strangers, you don't want to leave him in your six.

At least two if not three rounds into the guy, keep moving you are harder to hit while shooting on the run.

I've also heard.. if either one has a long arm take him first. When and IF you get them.. make sure they are disarmed and DOWN.

Keep an eye on the door. Reholster, wait for the law.

cool45auto · Nov 11, 2003

I'd go after the shooter first to stop him from taking out any more people. As soon as I see him go down I'd target the one at the door. If he's gone then good. If he's still there watching his partner to see what happened then I engage him.

P95Carry · Nov 11, 2003

Hmmm .... another scenario eh!!!

On balance it'd have to be the guy shooting who'd get my immediate attention ... major threat ... major effort. But quick ... real quick and transfer PDQ to guy by door cos he'll sure as hell start blasting when he hears extra fire.

I'd try for cover too ASAP .. and probably get on the move too. A lot will happen VERY fast. Rule #4 is gonna be a bummer too.

I think too I'd want my auto to hand and not just the five from Mr Snubbie ...... or at least have one or more speedloaders. This would be hairy .... very hairy!!

Could always hope too someone else was carrying .. boy, that'd ease the strain some!!

But guess you won't allow that eh King!!

sm · Nov 11, 2003

I agree with Dr. Rob.
Especially on the long arms ( shotgun comes to mind) depends on where shooters are and my six. I'm not comfortable with a shotgun being present, whether its the primary shooter or the guy at the door. Adapt, Improvise, Overcome, targets as need.

Call 911, re-holster, assist /coordinate medical needs, and be real compliant when the Calvary comes.

I was at a IHOP recently, and was taking mental notes. Glass is a real danger, storefronts, fixtures, plant holders,...etc. Great for viewing whom is coming and going, gonna be bloody from collateral damage. I was thinking the booth might be better to seek cover for my mom, then again I've shot a stage and booths are harder IME to get the gun out and going. I know, instead of the menu I'm thinking of what ifs instead. Got that look from mom like what am I thinking. Oh I chose the table, in the back next to fire exit.

rayjay · Nov 11, 2003

Take out active shooter in dining area first, then engage door gaurd if he is still present. If door gaurd splits I would not follow. Have someone call 911. Render first-aid where I could. Be interveiwed by responding police then ask the manager for a freebee on the dinner bill and drinks

sanchezero · Nov 12, 2003

Hide under the table. Eventually they'll run outta ammo and I can run for it.

sanchezero · Nov 12, 2003

Just kidding.

Hell, I dunno; that situation is wack'd, yo!

Sharpie1 · Nov 12, 2003

If I were properly armed - that is, carrying either my full-size 1911 or Makarov - not just my Kel-Tec 32, I think that, if possible, I would take the time to try to take a head shot on the guy who was doing the shooting.

I would then turn to face the guy guarding the door. If he did anything other than immediately drop his gun and put his hands up, including sneeze, he would be shot on the spot.

Of course, it is also entirely possible that I would throw a chair through a window and make a run for it.

.....just depends on where they are and where I am. Two against one is not a good thing, especially if escape is possible.

TD

Powderman · Nov 12, 2003

Oh, by the way.....

Remember the +1 rule. That says that you should ALWAYS count on there being at least one person you don't see.

Watch your six.

King · Nov 12, 2003

Good responses...remember that it's an all things equal scenario (assuming that there could be one). That means equal distance, equal opportunity, equal risk.

I've been thinking about this one for some time now and it would seem prudent to take out shooter first because he's doing the damage right now.

However, the shooter is likely focused on identifying and shooting his victims ( he's distracted) and is not watching the whole area. That's why he has someone at the door. The BG at the door is observing the other BG plus monitoring the room (less distracted) and possibly a greater danger to you right now unless the shooter is already focusing on an area close to you..

For that reason it may be better to deal with the BG at the door first. He doesn't know that you are packing and you're just one of the crowd. You may be able to sight him in and take him out effectively. The distracted shooter now has to locate you. By the time he does that, you've already sighted him in and gained a possible advantage. You've also stopped the shooter from taking out helpless victims because he now has to deal with you.

Take the shooter first? Maybe? But, the BG at the door will likely acquire you in his sights before you can acquire him. You could not expect him to run out the door.

In this situation, i'm not sure that I wouldn't take the guy at the door first.

Yea I know...every situation is different and you would have to look at all the circumstances as event were unfolding in real life. There are a bunch of variables at play.

Sportcat · Nov 12, 2003

Hopefully it is a restuarant that doesn't serve alcohol... otherwise I'm not allowed to CCW in South Carolina.:banghead: :cuss:

Sharpie1 · Nov 12, 2003

I'll bet I can guess which BG every one of the patrons of the restaurant would want you to take out first......the shooter. If he is randomly shooting people, every second you hesitate means the end of some innocent party's life.

In Virginia, it is legal (by the letter of the law, anyway) to walk into a restaurant with a gun and stand at the door - albeit not very wise. It is not legal to walk around and shoot people. Of course, the guy guarding the door is an accomplice, so it isn't as simple as this - but you can sort of see my point. He may be committing a misdemeanor by "menacing" - but not yet a felony. Well, I guess he is committing a felony - he is guilty of accessory to Murder One - and several counts.

By the time you finish with the shooter, you will (hopefully) already have the other BG in your sights. That way, you will have the advantage. The last thing these idiots will expect is for someone to shoot back - otherwise they wouldn't be doing what they're doing. The extent of their planning is probably just to make sure there are no police cruisers in the parking lot. Believe me - they will both be surprised if you shoot back.

TD

P95Carry · Nov 12, 2003

Oh I chose the table, in the back next to fire exit.

re1973 ... funny, ain't it!!! How we select our table placings .... I guess any observant ''fellow'' CCW might even guess we were carrying by the way we select our seating!!

Sometimes my wife sorta shuffles, impatient like - as I procrastinate .... and then she remembers why and just goes along with the ole fart's dallying!!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

King .. you make a very valid point re the guy by the door ..... and that makes it a hard decision....... cos as has been said the active BG is potentially taking a life every second you hesitate. However ... who is to say the door dude won't join the ''spree'' anytime soon anyways. I guess a calculated 2+1 to him is viable cos as has been mentioned .... the BG will not know quick enough perhaps where your shots came from. ....... giving time to get sighted on him quicker than he can on you.

Not a nice scenario - however you imagine dealing with it .... this one already has blood spilled.

CWL · Nov 12, 2003

I'd shoot the one that is greatest immediate threat to me, ie. anyone facing me. So active shooter may not be first one I'd try to engage.
If second target starts with back to me, better chance that I'd still have advantage, and use the confusion to try and drop him/her before he located me.

cordex · Nov 12, 2003

Are there any plate glass windows nearby? A .45 is always more effective if it has a plate glass window to blow the BG through.

Probably be more inclined to nail the active shooter first, personally. Whether or not I'd survive the shootout is another matter.

HankB · Nov 12, 2003

Once the bad guy is actively killing people - doing nothing is NOT an option.

Use available cover/concealment. Shoot the more imminent threat - this is determined by type of weapon, who's closer, who's facing which way, etc. Head shot if possible.

Mozambique the other guy. Do both just as fast as I can and score hits.

Move! Scan for other BGs or continuing threat from the first two BGs, who should both be down. (If either is not down, shoot him again until the threat ends.)

Powderman · Nov 12, 2003

cordex, the BG probably won't go through the window, but might probably do one of the following:

1. Drop where he stands. A good CNS shot will accomplish this.
2. Run right out of the door. The initial response of the human body is to get away from the thing that hurts you.

3. Act like nothing's happening. Most likely with ball ammunition in smaller calibers.
4. Shoot back. A likely scenario if the BG's are on drugs, or liquored up.

Thus, if I had any time at all to draw a sight picture, I would probably do a head shot on the first guy I'm aiming at. If the guy is in the line of sight of the other, the sight of the first guy's head going to mush rather violently will unsettle him, to say the least. Then, a quick transition to the second guy. Double tap to COM, a really quick hammer. With .45 Hydra-Shok, that will give him time to rethink his antisocial ways.

No reaction? Well, then, it's time to Mozambique this guy. Finish the job, and wait for local law enforcement.

Interestingly enough, I was at the range practicing my double and triple taps yesterday. At 10 yards, I have no problem holding a four-inch circle with either. Wish I had a timer to record my split times, because that Colt with a 20 lb. spring is really controllable! If it's any indication, the fired case from the first round was still in my line of sight when I fired the second for the controlled pair. Those Hydra Shoks are match accurate, too, at least out of my gun.

Sean Smith · Nov 12, 2003

Put them down in rank order of their immediate threat to myself. Doing anything else is poor judgement. If the guy by the door was the more immediate threat to me, but I shoot the guy killing other people, chances are increased that I will get killed... and there will still be a crazy bad guy with a gun in a room full of people. On the other hand, if I take out the greatest threat to me first, my odds of taking out all of the bad guys improves dramatically, since the guy most likely to neutralize me is put out of the picture.

Sort of like on airliners, where they tell you to put on your oxygen mask first, and then help other people... even though it may seem "better" to help other people first, if you pass out prematurely, you can't help as many people overall.

Bearing in mind, of course, that split-second judgements are a bitch.

King · Nov 12, 2003

Agreed...surviving the battle is paramount. Taking out the BG that represents the greatest threat to your survival first is the way to go. Additionally, I think the shooter is going to stop doing what was doing when armed victims figh tback.

As noted in an earlier, I doubt that the two BG's in this scenario are expecting a skirmish with anyone in the restarant. Clearly, they are the aggressors and the patrons are the victims. Creating and acting on a plan to end carnage turns the tables on the BG's. Once you are acting to eliminate their threat, you become the aggressor and they must deal with you. With luck, skill, good placement , and the right hardware...you might be successful (walking away in good health, helping / saving others)

Another point posted included having someone call 911 and in the process, be sure to identify / describe the good guy. I'd hate to risk my life only to get tapped by the authorities who mistook me for a BG.

cordex · Nov 12, 2003

cordex, the BG probably won't go through the window, but might probably do one of the following:

Nuh-uh! I saw it in a movie! If you shoot someone with a .45, they either get blown through a plate-glass window in a very dramatic fashion, or they are just lifted off their feet and thrown a yard or two.
I seen it, I did

If this ever did happen while I was in a restaurant, chances are there are at least two, maybe three other people with me who are armed. Hopefully between the three or four of us, we'll put lead into both of the shooters, or at least make them reconsider their actions when table 5 becomes a pillbox.

Powderman · Nov 12, 2003

Nuh-uh! I saw it in a movie! If you shoot someone with a .45, they either get blown through a plate-glass window in a very dramatic fashion, or they are just lifted off their feet and thrown a yard or two.

Vic303 · Nov 12, 2003

I guess I'd have to shoot whichever one was closer to me provided I had a good shot. Then on to the other. BTW, if you shoot the shooter first, BG2 MAY not realise what happened since his buddy is already going bangbang a lot. That could buy you more time.

Scenario...What Would You Do?

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