What would you do?

[Jeff White]

If this happened to me off duty I would do my standard retention drill and then present my credentials and demand that on duty officers and the guard's supervisor were called. If I saw him approaching me, he'd see my badge and ID first. You can usually tell if you are the person they want to talk to.

I just can't picture an unarmed guard going hand to hand to attempt to disarm someone. I suppose it's possible, but the scenario just doesn't ring true to me.

I suppose if a CCW holder saw the guard approach him he could challenge him verbally and present his CCW license. But like I said, I just don't see this happening. I've met all kinds of security people, but I don't think I ever met one who would just make a grab for what he thought was a gun. I think the security guard would most likely try to use whatever authority he thought he had verbally rather then go hands on. It's a bad situation because the general public watching is going to assume that the security guard is in the right. In a state where CCW is common, there would be a big danger of a blue on blue gunfight if a CCW holder jumped in to help the security guard.

Jeff

 

[Telperion]

I've met all kinds of security people, but I don't think I ever met one who would just make a grab for what he thought was a gun. I think the security guard would most likely try to use whatever authority he thought he had verbally rather then go hands on.

Exactly -- I can't imagine any type of security guard training that would train unarmed people to physically confront and restrain someone that thought had a gun. If the guy has not identified himself and explained his actions, then I'd have to assume the guy is trying for a gun grab, and respond accordingly.

 

[Jeff White]

I've thought about this one a lot in the last few hours. I think the best defense is to challenge him verbally before contact is made. A polite but firm "May I help you?" will probably stop our hero in his tracks.

I still cannot imagine this scenario. It's just too implausible to be believed. I would think that just about any security guard no matter how poorly trained would start with a verbal command and at that time you show him your credentials or license and that ends the encounter.

Jeff

 

[BigO01]

Jeff White I've thought about this one a lot in the last few hours. I think the best defense is to challenge him verbally before contact is made. A polite but firm "May I help you?" will probably stop our hero in his tracks.

I still cannot imagine this scenario. It's just too implausible to be believed. I would think that just about any security guard no matter how poorly trained would start with a verbal command and at that time you show him your credentials or license and that ends the encounter.

Jeff

I agree this sounds like a situation where a trained guard would call for the REAL police or another guard who was armed for assistance before anything happened , and I doubt they would shout GUN in a crowd unless you were drawing it and threatening anyone .

They would more than likely approach you and ask for identification and your badge/CCW which ever you had . I can't see them getting too pushy as you might be an off duty or even on duty police officer who is required to have a gun .

 

[BobTheTomato]

In the hypothetical situation given I believe that this is a "no win secenario" (see Star Trek 2: the only way to win is reprogram the simulation). The guy jumps you so if you fight back it is resisting arrest or worse someone could get hurt/killed and the media will crucify you. The only option is not resist and then sue the mall/guard company/guard. This will force them to provide better training and not have their people just want to "jump in to get the bad guy".

 

[hso]

The guard jumps you
People are starting to gather and beginning to assist the security guard

The only way to "win" is to not resist so that the situation calms down. You're outnumbered by people who's intent is to detain not harm you. To fight only increases the chance someone will get the gun and point it at you. Once you've been "subdued" you can inform the guard that you have a permit, insist that they secure the weapon without endangering anyone by putting it in a shopping bag so that it can't be mishandled and that they take you to the mall security office straight away to confirm your permit status and so that you can contact the police to file assault charges and your lawyer so he can start the civil suites against the guard, security company and the mall management company.

 

[HankB]

still cannot imagine this scenario. It's just too implausible to be believed.

I agree - especially in TX.

If unarmed mall security - or anyone else, for that matter - sees a gun lightly "printing" and the person is NOT acting furtive or aggressive, the normal first reaction will be "Must be an undercover or off-duty cop."

The second reaction will be "Must be licensed to carry" . . . ESPECIALLY if it's in a mall where "carry/open carry is not prohibited" as stated in the scenario. (This, especially is unique - how many states have "open carry" provisions? Not many.)

Under these circumstances, for an individual mall security guard to physically "jump" such a person (which indicates a violent, unprovoked physical assault without any prior verbal challenge) indicates, to me, nefarious intentions.

 

[tepin]

Anyway, you caused me to think through my probable reaction, which may have been your intent.

Correct. My intent was to provoke some thought on the topic. While it would seem foolish that any private and unarmed citizen would attempt to disarm a lawful citizen, it is possible that under certain circumstances it could happen. Take the mall and the security guard out of it and replace with a slightly intoxicated person at the state fair that knows a little about the law and use of deadly force and knows you probably will not shoot him for creating a scene and slapping at or pulling at your sidearm. All to look tough in front of his friends and mock you and humiliate you etc... The obvious move here is to haul-ass and find a cop but as quickly as encounters can escalate it leaves a lot of room for disaster. What if it gets to the point where the two of you are on the ground wrestling over your sidearm? Frightening, especially with the comments Jeff made regarding a cop not knowing who-is-who when they arrive at the scene. I carry my Kimber .45 in a Bianchi model 82 CarryLok just to make it harder for someone to pull out of the holster. It also gives me a little extra time to run away without fear of the gun bouncing out of the holster and onto the concrete.

Thanks for your reply.

 

[Taurus 66]

Where oh where is my rolling laughter smiley??

Do you really believe a security guard is going to rush and jump on top of a printing CCW holder shouting, "Gun Gun ..."? I'm aware this is a "What if ... then what?" scenario, like bordering somewhere along fantasy or psychosis, but this is just out there.

Wouldn't the security guard take into consideration that the CCW holder might be an undercover or off duty police officer? Or how about (get this) a 'Law Abiding Citizen' carrying for protection?

If there was a "No Weapons Allowed" policy and the CCW holder was in violation of the rules, wouldn't security keep distance, but maintain visual, call the police to have him disarmed and escorted from the premesis? Why should he attempt heroics at $8.50 an hour? If there is no such policy, what could security guard legally do? Not much.

I want a ROFL smiley!

 

[hso]

replace with a slightly intoxicated person at the state fair that knows a little about the law and use of deadly force and knows you probably will not shoot him for creating a scene and slapping at or pulling at your sidearm. All to look tough in front of his friends and mock you and humiliate you etc... The obvious move here is to haul-ass and find a cop but as quickly as encounters can escalate it leaves a lot of room for disaster.

That's an entirely different nearly impossible situation and would warrant a different response. It does point out that just carrying a gun isn't enough and anyone that does needs to train in retention and unarmed combat to keep their weapon under their control. If some drunk makes a grab for your gun you have no idea if he's trying to get it to kill you with it or rob you with it or make off with it to rob or kill someone else or "to look tough in front of his friends". You need to make sure that he doesn't get that weapon. If that results in his wrist/arm being broken you've made sure that no one got shot. If it results in his being shot, you've made sure no innocents were shot with your gun. You've got to make sure that he doesn't get control of that weapon in this situation.

Over eager guard, flatten out and yell for the cops.

Unknown punk, fight for your life. With luck you won't have to shoot him.

 

[Zundfolge]

The following assumes that neither you nor the security guard are a police officer (I doubt an actual LEO is going to "jump" you yelling "GUN GUN GUN!")

If the security guard approaches you (even in a hurry) but hasn't touched you yet you simply put your hands where he can see them and tell him if he touches you he goes to jail and that you're perfectly within your legal rights to carry a gun.

If the security guard "jumps" you, all the better ... you're going to get paid, he's going to be unemployed and possibly jailed.

If the security guard never touches you then you have no recourse to fight him, either physically or in court.



Those of you who say "punch him in the throat" or whatever are going to miss out on the fat check (and might end up in jail or at least losing their carry permit).


Unless you are obviously carrying "Mexican style", most people (even dimwitted Mall Ninjas) are going to assume you're a cop. I agree that this is a very unlikely scenario, but there are idiots out there wearing rent-a-cop uniforms (I've had my share of run-ins with these idiots when I worked in a mall).


Oh, another option ... when the security guard yells "Gun Gun!" you draw yours to low ready and start yelling "Where!? Where!?" while frantically looking around.

 

[Tokugawa]

I got jumped once on a shopping center sidewalk and jammed into a doorway by a guy armed with a busted off chair leg with a 3" lag bolt sticking out the end. Fortunately I did not have a weapon- the incoherent jerk was a hyped up "police reservist" playing "harry callahan" in his mind. He thought I was a big bad 17 year old terrorist ninja shop lifter.
Trust me, when a guy in plain clothes with a club assaults you out of the blue, the term "police officer" is not the first one that comes to mind.