I don't know where you shoot, but where I shoot a guy with a bolt gun is in the minority. The majority of the people are shooting AR-15s, Ruger 10-22s (with the large magazines), or handguns of one flavor or another, Glocks and 1911s being the most popular.
Need for high capacity magazines!
- Thread starter JellyJar
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I don't know where you shoot, but where I shoot a guy with a bolt gun is in the minority. The majority of the people are shooting AR-15s, Ruger 10-22s (with the large magazines), or handguns of one flavor or another, Glocks and 1911s being the most popular.
Snowy Rivers
Member
I can sum it up real quick.
"SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED" that is a simple statement thats easy to understand for most educated people.
Personally, I carry a Glock 23 it does not have a 33 round magazine, I dont need or want a 33 round magazine, but if I decide later that for some reason I do want one, I do not want some ill informed clown telling me that I can't have one.
Just no defferent than this same mentality telling me that I can't own an SUV or a pickup truck/4x4.
The capacity of the magazine is of really no importance. When your dealing with people who will try and put a "SPIN" on whatever they are speaking of, its all a moot point.
Had a gal a while back come in and want to take the concealed carry class.
I asked her what her level of experience with a handgun was?? I got the deer in the headlights look
I was suspect right there. I asked her to handle some different wepaons and she showed total fear, and made the comment, "Ohhhh I dont want to own a gun"
Ran her off, she was no doubt a plant, looking to write a blog somehwere on how easy it is to get a gun permit.
These sorts are out there and always a threat to freedom.
Having been to SHOT a few times as an exhibitor, I can't see the show managment allowing this sort of element into the show, sort of counter productive me thinks.
Best
Snowy
"SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED" that is a simple statement thats easy to understand for most educated people.
Personally, I carry a Glock 23 it does not have a 33 round magazine, I dont need or want a 33 round magazine, but if I decide later that for some reason I do want one, I do not want some ill informed clown telling me that I can't have one.
Just no defferent than this same mentality telling me that I can't own an SUV or a pickup truck/4x4.
The capacity of the magazine is of really no importance. When your dealing with people who will try and put a "SPIN" on whatever they are speaking of, its all a moot point.
Had a gal a while back come in and want to take the concealed carry class.
I asked her what her level of experience with a handgun was?? I got the deer in the headlights look
I was suspect right there. I asked her to handle some different wepaons and she showed total fear, and made the comment, "Ohhhh I dont want to own a gun"
Ran her off, she was no doubt a plant, looking to write a blog somehwere on how easy it is to get a gun permit.
These sorts are out there and always a threat to freedom.
Having been to SHOT a few times as an exhibitor, I can't see the show managment allowing this sort of element into the show, sort of counter productive me thinks.
Best
Snowy
TexasRifleman
Moderator Emeritus
I will say that their media screening process is pretty lax. They don't require any evidence that your media outlet is pro gun or even gun related.
MoscowMike
Member
On the subject of magazine capacity, one thing we should keep in mind is that the assailant is able to pick and choose his time. He can bring multiple magazines, perhaps even multiple weapons.
Most folks don't want to go about their normal business carrying a lot of extra weight, or put on a tactical vest just to see what the dogs are barking about.
There are exceptions, but I would wager that in a lot of cases you are going to have to respond to the threat with whatever you have in your weapon. Requiring honest citizens to limit themselves to a certain number of rounds in a magazine just gives the attackers another advantage.
Most folks don't want to go about their normal business carrying a lot of extra weight, or put on a tactical vest just to see what the dogs are barking about.
There are exceptions, but I would wager that in a lot of cases you are going to have to respond to the threat with whatever you have in your weapon. Requiring honest citizens to limit themselves to a certain number of rounds in a magazine just gives the attackers another advantage.
macadore
Member
+1
I'm sure some dealers and manufactures are OK with the ban on Norinco military style firearms.
How 'bout..
smince
Member.
I EDC either a Glock 19 or 26, with a 17+2 mag for a spare.
That said, there is usually a 33-round G18 mag (or 3) in my laptop bag and/or my Jeep. It also works in my Keltec S2K, if need be.
Glock is now making 22-round .40 mags for the pistols or the .40 S2K.
A 20-round M92 mag will work in your pistol or your CX4. 10-round 1911 mags will work in a pistol or a Mechtech CCU. Various size mags will work in the AR/AK/Sig/Keltec pistols as well as the rifles.
I can think of any number of reasons to carry extra-capacity SD magazines.
That said, there is usually a 33-round G18 mag (or 3) in my laptop bag and/or my Jeep. It also works in my Keltec S2K, if need be.
Glock is now making 22-round .40 mags for the pistols or the .40 S2K.
A 20-round M92 mag will work in your pistol or your CX4. 10-round 1911 mags will work in a pistol or a Mechtech CCU. Various size mags will work in the AR/AK/Sig/Keltec pistols as well as the rifles.
I can think of any number of reasons to carry extra-capacity SD magazines.
XM855
Member
Truth.
If a law abiding individual doesn't mind carrying around the bulk of a larger magazine, then why should anyone else? And if he or she is not a law abiding individual, then what's the point anyways?
In my home, I have no need to "conceal" my weapon, so I keep every gun I own fitted with the biggest magazines I own. Unfortunately, the M&P series doesn't have any 30-rd mags I can buy, or I would own a couple. I *do* keep the 17 rd mag in the compact, and the balance doesn't feel off at all. The grip is a little weird, but I'm absolutely certain I won't be the crack shot I am at the range when someone invades my home.
I also don't want to have to fumble with swapping magazines, as that's just going to add one more thing to the long list of maneuvers I need to get *exactly right* to defend my life.
Hopefully, the invader leaves after the first shot, or sees the gun and flees. Barring that, I hope I hit him just enough times to make him pass out from blood loss, the ambulance arrives, saves his life, and he goes on to reform himself and devotes his life to helping others and making good in the world.
We hope for the best case scenarios, but we plan for the worst. In the best case scenario, even a 10rd mag is "more than enough." In the worst case scenario, really no sized magazine is "large enough." Home invasions do happen in groups, occasionally, and a portion of those times, the invaders are armed. Do you really think you could completely disable 4 or 5 adult men with 10rds? What about 15? 30? Remember that lighting won't be perfect, your adrenaline will be rushing, and there's a good chance you won't have time to line up your sights.
Maybe you panic and let off 10 shots in 3 seconds. Maybe you don't. Either way, the less you need to think about to defend yourself, the better off you'll be. I'm a big proponent of DAO no-external-safety guns (Or double single, with safety off) for just that reason, even more-so those that reliably shoot when shot at an angle/moving/weak grip/etc. Every M&P and Glock I've shot fit those exact requirements, so I try to recommend that new shooters at least try the guns before they make a gun purchase.
I also don't want to have to fumble with swapping magazines, as that's just going to add one more thing to the long list of maneuvers I need to get *exactly right* to defend my life.
Hopefully, the invader leaves after the first shot, or sees the gun and flees. Barring that, I hope I hit him just enough times to make him pass out from blood loss, the ambulance arrives, saves his life, and he goes on to reform himself and devotes his life to helping others and making good in the world.
We hope for the best case scenarios, but we plan for the worst. In the best case scenario, even a 10rd mag is "more than enough." In the worst case scenario, really no sized magazine is "large enough." Home invasions do happen in groups, occasionally, and a portion of those times, the invaders are armed. Do you really think you could completely disable 4 or 5 adult men with 10rds? What about 15? 30? Remember that lighting won't be perfect, your adrenaline will be rushing, and there's a good chance you won't have time to line up your sights.
Maybe you panic and let off 10 shots in 3 seconds. Maybe you don't. Either way, the less you need to think about to defend yourself, the better off you'll be. I'm a big proponent of DAO no-external-safety guns (Or double single, with safety off) for just that reason, even more-so those that reliably shoot when shot at an angle/moving/weak grip/etc. Every M&P and Glock I've shot fit those exact requirements, so I try to recommend that new shooters at least try the guns before they make a gun purchase.
Justin
Moderator Emeritus
Arguments that will fail, and why
If you're engaged in a discussion with someone who's neutral or leans anti-gun, most of the arguments that have been made in defense of why high-capacity magazines should be legal are going to fall flat.
Claiming that you need high capacity magazines because you live on the border or in a bad neighborhood is, frankly, going make you sound like a closet racist.
Claiming that you need a high-capacity magazine for personal defense in case you get mugged or must face down a home invasion is going to make you sound like a paranoid whackjob. If the person you're talking to is the least bit educated on the subject, they'll only need to point out that, statistically, most defensive gunfights are settled with less than six rounds fired by all parties involved.
Claiming that you should be able to have high capacity magazines because it's a free country or you have a right to it under the Second Amendment may sound good when you're talking with your buddies, but to the average person, it makes you sound callous and indifferent to the people victimized in mass shootings.
The bottom line is this: if you're placed in the position of having to defend why you should be allowed to own an object that many people would consider unreasonable or useful "only for killing", you've already lost.
Rather, you need shift the argument to a discussion of the proposed restrictions, and what they entail. This allows you to go on the offense in the discussion, and forces the person to reconsider whether or not a magazine ban would be effective.
Points to bring up in a discussion about a magazine ban:
- Point out that we already had a federal, nationwide ban on these magazines. It lasted ten years, and not one trustworthy study could prove that the ban on high capacity magazines had any measurable effect on violent crime at all. Ten years, and there was not one single shred of proof that the law did anything.
-If they still insist that a ban is a good idea, ask them to explain how a new ban would work when the old one clearly did not.
-Point out that high-capacity magazines are small items, about the size of a candy bar, and they're practically untraceable. Ask them how they would plan to keep people from importing magazines, buying them on the secondary market, or making them.
-Point out that tens of millions of these magazines are already in private hands in this country. Ask them to explain whether or not they would be willing to arrest, try, and imprison someone simply for owning such an item.
-Furthermore, ask them if imprisoning someone for simple possession of a plastic tube with a spring in it is a reasonable use of the already strained and overextended resources of the American judicial system.
If you're engaged in a discussion with someone who's neutral or leans anti-gun, most of the arguments that have been made in defense of why high-capacity magazines should be legal are going to fall flat.
Claiming that you need high capacity magazines because you live on the border or in a bad neighborhood is, frankly, going make you sound like a closet racist.
Claiming that you need a high-capacity magazine for personal defense in case you get mugged or must face down a home invasion is going to make you sound like a paranoid whackjob. If the person you're talking to is the least bit educated on the subject, they'll only need to point out that, statistically, most defensive gunfights are settled with less than six rounds fired by all parties involved.
Claiming that you should be able to have high capacity magazines because it's a free country or you have a right to it under the Second Amendment may sound good when you're talking with your buddies, but to the average person, it makes you sound callous and indifferent to the people victimized in mass shootings.
The bottom line is this: if you're placed in the position of having to defend why you should be allowed to own an object that many people would consider unreasonable or useful "only for killing", you've already lost.
Rather, you need shift the argument to a discussion of the proposed restrictions, and what they entail. This allows you to go on the offense in the discussion, and forces the person to reconsider whether or not a magazine ban would be effective.
Points to bring up in a discussion about a magazine ban:
- Point out that we already had a federal, nationwide ban on these magazines. It lasted ten years, and not one trustworthy study could prove that the ban on high capacity magazines had any measurable effect on violent crime at all. Ten years, and there was not one single shred of proof that the law did anything.
-If they still insist that a ban is a good idea, ask them to explain how a new ban would work when the old one clearly did not.
-Point out that high-capacity magazines are small items, about the size of a candy bar, and they're practically untraceable. Ask them how they would plan to keep people from importing magazines, buying them on the secondary market, or making them.
-Point out that tens of millions of these magazines are already in private hands in this country. Ask them to explain whether or not they would be willing to arrest, try, and imprison someone simply for owning such an item.
-Furthermore, ask them if imprisoning someone for simple possession of a plastic tube with a spring in it is a reasonable use of the already strained and overextended resources of the American judicial system.
Carter
Member
Its also worth bringing up that soldiers use the commercial hi-cap mags because standard issue ones aren't as good. If they weren't available to the average citizen, how would they get them? Cause the military isn't going to spend money on them.
Another point: If a ban is put in place, it would have negative economic outcomes in an already troubled economic time. Firearms are a thriving market, even in trying times. A ban would cause people to stop spending money, thus hurting those companies, losing more jobs in the long run, and some companies may just go under. This particular point can be argued as extreme or mild as you wish to take it.
Another point: If a ban is put in place, it would have negative economic outcomes in an already troubled economic time. Firearms are a thriving market, even in trying times. A ban would cause people to stop spending money, thus hurting those companies, losing more jobs in the long run, and some companies may just go under. This particular point can be argued as extreme or mild as you wish to take it.
DoubleTapDrew
Member
Unfortunately you can't determine "need" until after the fact. Most SD shootings last only a shot or two so maybe you won't "need" more than a double barreled shotgun or handgun but if you need more than those one or two shoots, you REALLY NEED them badly. Points aren't deducted for having unused ammo after a gunfight.
The bottom line is, don't let your opponent frame the argument.
Shadow 7D
Member
Sadly I find little to engage, pointing out that it doesn't matter
well doesn't matter
well doesn't matter
HGUHNTR-You don't NEED a 30 mag, you WANT one. I have no problem with that. How big a firefight to you realistically envision occurring in your home?
I prefer than my gun be better balanced and less "projecting" as I handle it. I also feel like if 15 rounds doesn't settle the matter not sure another 15 would help.
To each his own...
I prefer than my gun be better balanced and less "projecting" as I handle it. I also feel like if 15 rounds doesn't settle the matter not sure another 15 would help.
To each his own...
mickeygrimreaperblueeyes
Member
1 round can kill. 33 rounds put in a very well shot pattern could engage and possibly kill 33 and wound 33 more depending on the round.
Here's the problem for the limitation: SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED
in·fringe (n-frnj)
v. in·fringed, in·fring·ing, in·fring·es
v.tr.
1. To transgress or exceed the limits of; violate: infringe a contract; infringe a patent.
2. Obsolete To defeat; invalidate.
v.intr.
To encroach on someone or something; engage in trespassing: an increased workload that infringed on his personal life.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[Latin nfringere, to destroy : in-, intensive pref.; see in-2 + frangere, to break; see bhreg- in Indo-European roots.]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If you understand that all other countries in the world besides America and Switzerland have impositions on their citizens about personal freedoms and each country has voluntarily SLAUGHTERED their citizenry.
SO many countries that keep guns for their ruling populace.
This Idea that so many statesman have tried to rule obsolete and outdated is there for our FREEDOM and no other reason.
Get used to it, or go back to where you came from.
Men will always lord over other men and very few men want to be equal to others. This 2nd ammendment is the only thing that guarantees our equality to our SO CALLED RULING CLASS. The big difference is that the ruling class usually have body guards and carry no guns themselves. Most dignitary protectors have 30 round magazines falling out their noses too, so if we don't need them, then why do they?
Here's the problem for the limitation: SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED
in·fringe (n-frnj)
v. in·fringed, in·fring·ing, in·fring·es
v.tr.
1. To transgress or exceed the limits of; violate: infringe a contract; infringe a patent.
2. Obsolete To defeat; invalidate.
v.intr.
To encroach on someone or something; engage in trespassing: an increased workload that infringed on his personal life.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[Latin nfringere, to destroy : in-, intensive pref.; see in-2 + frangere, to break; see bhreg- in Indo-European roots.]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If you understand that all other countries in the world besides America and Switzerland have impositions on their citizens about personal freedoms and each country has voluntarily SLAUGHTERED their citizenry.
SO many countries that keep guns for their ruling populace.
This Idea that so many statesman have tried to rule obsolete and outdated is there for our FREEDOM and no other reason.
Get used to it, or go back to where you came from.
Men will always lord over other men and very few men want to be equal to others. This 2nd ammendment is the only thing that guarantees our equality to our SO CALLED RULING CLASS. The big difference is that the ruling class usually have body guards and carry no guns themselves. Most dignitary protectors have 30 round magazines falling out their noses too, so if we don't need them, then why do they?
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Why do you need "high capacity" magazines?
How about this for starters!
http://crime.about.com/od/current/a/billings_murder.htm
Seven men broke into their home to rob them. How many bullets is enough to kill a single robber and stop them from hurting your family? Before you argue that this example is an isolated incident, you go ahead and HOPE that it will never happen to you because I'm sure Mr. and Mrs. Billings (God rest their souls) thought the same way. I will not take a chance on my family’s safety. It may not happen to me but you can bet your ass as long as the possibility of something like this exists I will stand ready. I will keep my guns loaded with whatever capacity I deem appropriate.
How about this for starters!
http://crime.about.com/od/current/a/billings_murder.htm
Seven men broke into their home to rob them. How many bullets is enough to kill a single robber and stop them from hurting your family? Before you argue that this example is an isolated incident, you go ahead and HOPE that it will never happen to you because I'm sure Mr. and Mrs. Billings (God rest their souls) thought the same way. I will not take a chance on my family’s safety. It may not happen to me but you can bet your ass as long as the possibility of something like this exists I will stand ready. I will keep my guns loaded with whatever capacity I deem appropriate.
Justin
Moderator Emeritus
Basing your argument on extreme statistical outliers is a very weak argument.
kraigwy
Member
Why does it have to be about self defense? I carry a 642 so mags dont matter.
But SD is not the only reason I shoot pistol/revolvers.
Ever fired Steel Matches or 3 or Multi Gun Matches. Its about time. Most of the time is taken up in loading the pistol or revolver. Where I shoot, you dont stand a chance using, lets say, a 7 round 1911 mag. You have to do two mag changes to keep up with an 18 or 20 round mag from an Beretta 92.
But SD is not the only reason I shoot pistol/revolvers.
Ever fired Steel Matches or 3 or Multi Gun Matches. Its about time. Most of the time is taken up in loading the pistol or revolver. Where I shoot, you dont stand a chance using, lets say, a 7 round 1911 mag. You have to do two mag changes to keep up with an 18 or 20 round mag from an Beretta 92.
killchain
Member
#5: Because I want one.
Justin
Moderator Emeritus
Speaking as someone who's thoroughly addicted to USPSA, 3 Gun, and to a lesser extent, Steel Challenge, and uses >10 round magazines for those games, that argument isn't going to fly for the simple reason that whoever you're debating will retort with "Saving lives is more important than playing games."
The competition route isn't one that's going to get you any traction outside of people who are participants in, or sympathetic to the needs of competitive shooters.
.338-06
Member
Basing your argument on extreme statistical outliers is a very weak argument.
Isn't this the sum total of the other side's argument? I'm pretty sure that the AZ shooting meets all standards for "extreme statistical outlier" and yet we're pulling our hair out trying to find effective counter arguments. The other side's call for a new hi cap ban appeals to emotion-fear and I don't think any reasonable counter argument will work.
On using a hi cap mag for hd, I once read an article by Mas Ayoob where he stated that his hd weapon was a Beretta 92 with a 30 round mag. I'm less brave, my hd weapon is a Saiga 12.
Isn't this the sum total of the other side's argument? I'm pretty sure that the AZ shooting meets all standards for "extreme statistical outlier" and yet we're pulling our hair out trying to find effective counter arguments. The other side's call for a new hi cap ban appeals to emotion-fear and I don't think any reasonable counter argument will work.
On using a hi cap mag for hd, I once read an article by Mas Ayoob where he stated that his hd weapon was a Beretta 92 with a 30 round mag. I'm less brave, my hd weapon is a Saiga 12.
frankenstein406
Member
- Joined
- Jan 9, 2011
- Messages
- 816
People in the military, police ect ect are just regular people. There no different than me and you. Sure maybe better training but there's schools for that. Theres no need to limit anyone with there right to bear arms. I've seen any of the police rack mounted ar15s with a 10 or 5 shot clip...
One issue not covered is that standard capacity mags are easier to load. Those of us with arthritis or Vets with Agent Orange poisoning have a difficult time loading the limited capacity mags. Why should veterans or handicapped people be further damaged than they already are.
PS
Agent Orange often causes sharp pain in the extremities.
PS
Agent Orange often causes sharp pain in the extremities.
oldbear
Member
I did not attend the shot show not know anyone who did. I have owned several high capacity pistols, Browning H.P. and Smith & Wesson M-59, one of the reasons I sold these was the weight issue. The Browning was and still an excellent pistol but I felt was just too heavy for C/C. I’ve never handled a pistol with a 20 round + capacity, but I think these would be HEAVY and awkward to shoot. Other than the fact we can own these, I see no reason for these with the possible exception of a military style combat situation then only as a reload if needed.
So my question is can someone please explain to me do the advantages of extended magazines outweigh the disadvantages and why?
So my question is can someone please explain to me do the advantages of extended magazines outweigh the disadvantages and why?
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