Need for high capacity magazines!

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I think the argument about banning something based on whether it is needed or not is logically flawed. We don't need jewelry, or movies, or numerous other things, but we should not have to prove we need these things in order to have them. What one person needs, another might consider frivolous. I can't see why anyone would need a CD by Julio Iglesias, but I don't think the government should ban them or waste time and money ruining the lives of people who have them. When asked why someone might need a high capacity magazine, my response is, “Why does it matter whether one needs one or not?”

The obvious response you'll get from someone who is in favor of banning "high capacity" magazines is that no one has ever used a Julio Iglesias CD to commit a spree killing.

If you say to a fence-sitter that you don't have to justify why you want to own those magazines, to them you're admitting that they serve no actual purpose, and when weighed against the notions of public safety, your argument will simply crumble.
 
Johnny_Come_Lately said:
Had it not been for our fore fathers owning guns we might not be the UNITED STATES of AMERICA. Therefore I believe any attempt to restrict firearm ownership should be vigorously opposed.

Agreed. Also, it should not be possible for the military or police to have access to a firearm that the citizens cannot also have access to at basically the same price. For example the current pseudo-ban on automatic weapons... For the military and police, an M16 or an AR15 cost basically the same. Because of the unconstitional infringment of various 'laws', for us civilians, the cost of an M16 is probably around 10 times what an AR15 goes for. We should be able to convert our semi-auto weapons to full auto if we so desired, just like we *used* to be able to do. Personally, I don't have a desire to waste that much money on ammo, but it's just the principle of the thing as far as I'm concerned.
 
Trust me, everyone that owns a gun or two,
doesn't neccesarily believe what you do.

+1 to our poet....

I don't recall "signing up" for any ones team when I purchased any of my firearms...

Assuming that all gun owners think alike on hot button issues is foolishness.

Re. hi caps:

The last time I checked, a hi cap mag was about the same size as a bag of weed. That's been illegal for 50 years and yet you can still buy it in every town in the U.S and the illegal market is extremely profitable and spawns all kinds of criminal activity. The only way you can make any such ban effective is to surrender most all of your liberies and become a police state.

Boo, boo, boo!

I'm amazed at the hypocrasy of the liberal mind, that wants the right to do anything and say anything when they speak out one side of their mouth and then advicates for what is essentially a police state when speaking out of the other side.
 
The 10-round maximum capacity on detachable magazines was part of the 94 assault weapon ban as it is called. Based on what I have read, there was no significant correlation with crime and 10+ round magazines. I don't favor such a restriction whether it be a situation where existing magazines were grandfathered, or made illegal to own or carry. It is a feel good kind of law for the anti-gun crowd that like before would have no significant effect on criminal use of handguns or long guns.

Could such legislation actually pass and would it be found constitutional? I suspect so. Would it impact the way I live and shoot? Probably not. It might even save me money in the long run.

Make your voice heard with your legislators.

Does restricting sales of toy guns to people 18-years old or older make sense in Hawaii? Not to me. Would it impact crime there? Probably not. But that does not stop a bill to do just that being proposed.
 
One issue not covered is that standard capacity mags are easier to load. Those of us with arthritis or Vets with Agent Orange poisoning have a difficult time loading the limited capacity mags. Why should veterans or handicapped people be further damaged than they already are.
PS
Agent Orange often causes sharp pain in the extremities.
By this logic we should outlaw stairs because there are a lot of cripples that would have a difficult time ascending them.
 
The obvious response you'll get from someone who is in favor of banning "high capacity" magazines is that no one has ever used a Julio Iglesias CD to commit a spree killing.

If you say to a fence-sitter that you don't have to justify why you want to own those magazines, to them you're admitting that they serve no actual purpose, and when weighed against the notions of public safety, your argument will simply crumble.

To this I would say, you're changing the subject. The question is, “should the government ban things because people don't need them". What is the legal precedent for that?

As for magazines killing people, that's more absurd than the argument that guns kill people. I have never seen a gun load itself, aim itself, and pull its own trigger. The day I see that happen, I'll support banning firearms. Until then, the argument that inanimate objects kill things independent of human intervention is illogical.

Samson killed 40 Philistines with the jawbone of an ass. Should the Philistines have banned ass jawbones, anything readily convertible to the jawbone of an ass and all ass jawbone type weapons?
 
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To this I would say, you're changing the subject. The question is, “should the government ban things because people don't need them". What is the legal precedent for that?

There's plenty of legal precedent of governments banning things with no need, and ostensibly for reasons of public safety. Off the top of my head, asbestos, smoking in public places, marijuana, internet gambling, salvia divinorum, using a cell phone while driving, etc.

The most recent and obvious example would be the prohibition of pre-mixed caffeinated alcoholic beverages such as FourLoko, despite the fact that there is no actual evidence that such drinks are harmful in any way at all, and it's still legal to make a Jack and Coke or Red Bull and vodka.

The argument isn't one of whether the government should be free to ban things because "they" don't perceive a need for them. Attempting to argue your position from that angle isn't going to work, because fence-sitters who favor a ban believe there are viable public safety reasons for instituting a ban, and don't give any further thought to the implications of such a law because it wouldn't personally affect them.

As for magazines killing people, that's more absurd than the argument that guns kill people. I have never seen a gun load itself, aim itself, and pull its own trigger. The day I see that happen, I'll support banning firearms. Until then, the argument that inanimate objects kill things independent of human intervention is illogical.

Trying to claim that the opposition is attempting to anthropomorphize guns isn't going to win you any converts. The average person knows that guns do not in and of themselves cause death, but they are probably inclined to believe that access to certain kinds of guns or accessories makes it easier to cause mayhem.

Most people, especially non-shooters, will intuitively believe that it's easier to kill more people with higher capacity magazines than without. From there, it's fairly logical to conclude that if there's no compelling reason for ownership of these magazines, and if removing them from public circulation will keep people like Jared Loughner from killing as many people, it would seem completely reasonable to support a ban on them.

Fundamentally that's what many people in this thread aren't understanding. There's no attempt to actually look at the arguments in favor of a ban and rationally deconstruct them. There's no analysis or thought. Instead it's all internet chest-thumping, which I suppose must be cathartic for some, but should never, ever be mistaken for an actual debate tactic that will swing people over to your viewpoint.
 
Agreed. Also, it should not be possible for the military or police to have access to a firearm that the citizens cannot also have access to at basically the same price.

Not sure I agree with that. From a LE standpoint, of which I am, that's problematic. Most LEO's are already under gunned in relationship to what they encounter in the street. Do you want to pay for each one to have a full auto carbine in each car. Also, do you want every Tom/Dick/Harry etc... walking around with one.

I can't answer that, pros and cons strong on both sides. Something to think about.

:confused:
 
Do I need a 30 round magazine for my pistol?

It's the bill of rights not the bill of needs.
 
Sometimes, I have to wonder why I even bother replying to threads when I know that the CENSORS are going to delete my well thought out replies anyway... Kind of ironic that on a site that is trying to protect our 2nd Amendment rights that it is more than willing ignore our 1st Amendment rights. Yeah, I know, this is a private forum and they can censor anything that they want to anytime they want, but it's the principle of the thing...
 
Not sure I agree with that. From a LE standpoint, of which I am, that's problematic. Most LEO's are already under gunned in relationship to what they encounter in the street. Do you want to pay for each one to have a full auto carbine in each car. Also, do you want every Tom/Dick/Harry etc... walking around with one.

I can't answer that, pros and cons strong on both sides. Something to think about.

:confused:
So, your department can't afford spending $1K on a M16? It wouldn't even be necessary for every officer, just for every patrol unit that was on the street...
 
Violations of the 4th and 5th Amendments to the Bill of Rights would be involved in seizures of magazines. A cavalier attitude about depriving citizens of any rights under the BOR is very dangerous and should be pointed out whenever anyone suggests imposing their desires over the rights of others.

Alternately, there is nothing based in fact that points to magazine capacity impacting public health or safety (on any statistical basis) that warrants the extraordinary measure of violating rights guaranteed under the BOR. As pointed out the much worse mass murder at VA Tech was carried out with several 10 round magazines used while the murders in AZ were done with a single magazine (mag change prevented). Crime statistics from the DOJ and anecdotes from LEOs show most crime guns have only a few rounds regardless of mag capacity.

With those and other facts, it is clear that there is no basis for any new laws infringing upon our rights enumerated in the BOR to be put in place.
 
My local PD has H&K G36's for the trunk of the patrol cars. I had this confirmed by many, including the police chief.
 
Do I need a 30 round magazine for my pistol?

It's the bill of rights not the bill of needs.
Heller has already decided that the right is not unlimited.
Violations of the 4th and 5th Amendments to the Bill of Rights would be involved in seizures of magazines. A cavalier attitude about depriving citizens of any rights under the BOR is very dangerous and should be pointed out whenever anyone suggests imposing their desires over the rights of others.
How would they get probable cause for possession? Do they need to have the receipt that indicates your purchase?
Implementing this as a confiscation instead of non-proliferation would result in a lot of "gray area" searches.
 
Neverwinter said:
Heller has already decided that the right is not unlimited.

And the Surpremes are more likely to be right than the Founding Fathers? Nawh, I don't think so... It is a right and it is unlimited... Any limitation to it is by definition an "infringement" and as such, is unconstitutional... Pretty easy to understand for anyone with half a brain and who can read English... Oh, wait a minute... We're talking about lawyers here... Half a brain might be a bit optimistic...
 
Do you think the following should be construed to be an absolute right too? Oh and do you think we should follow the founders intent on this one to the T too?

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
 
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And the Surpremes are more likely to be right than the Founding Fathers? Nawh, I don't think so... It is a right and it is unlimited...

I'm sure that feels really nice to assert when making posts on an online forum.

The reality of the situation, however, is quite different.

Any limitation to it is by definition an "infringement" and as such, is unconstitutional... Pretty easy to understand for anyone with half a brain and who can read English...

Oh, hey, that's pretty awesome. So you're going to tell anyone who disagrees with you that they're an idiot. No doubt your tactic will prevail.
 
My argument is this:

People have been killing people since the beginning of time. In times of war, they kill. In times of peace, they kill. In poverty, they kill. In prosperity, they kill. In ancient history, they killed. In the recent paper, they killed. Man has always killed man, whether law forbade it or not.

Making a piece of polymer of a given length illegal will not change that. It will only serve to make more things criminal.
 
Do you think the following should be construed to be an absolute right too? Oh and do you think we should follow the founders intent on this one to the T too?
Quote:
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
It's not considered absolute. At one time we had an American Nazi party and an American Communist party. IIRC, they were declared illegal. Lenny Bruce was arrested several times for saying certain words. During the early seventies several groups tried to start religions based on the cultivation and use of marijuana. That were not allowed to practice their religion.
 
High capacity magazines aren't needed, but that doesn't mean they should be banned. Banning them isn't going to reduce crime. You can do the same damage with three 10-round magazines. Changing mags is quick if you practice and I doubt the Arizona shooter did much practice. I suspect he went there knowing he would leave either dead or in custody, and just wanted to do damage as quickly as possible.

The real reasons for this proposed ban is 1. ignorance about guns and 2. scoring political points. What this will do, if it passes, is make more people angry. Anger and mental illness were the reasons the shooting happened in the first place. We don't need gun laws that make MORE people angry. We need legislation that addresses helping those with mental heath problems.
 
To the collectivist you are concidered part of a group (society in this case) and you are seen as no better than the least member of that group, the weakest link. Therefore if some people can not be trusted with high capacity magazines because of what they might do, then NOBODY can have a high capacity magazine except the authorities of course.

The individualist belives in punishing criminal actions rather than the ownership of a thing that has potential to be used in a crime.
 
Violations of the 4th and 5th Amendments to the Bill of Rights would be involved in seizures of magazines. A cavalier attitude about depriving citizens of any rights under the BOR is very dangerous and should be pointed out whenever anyone suggests imposing their desires over the rights of others.
Well, if they are already completely ignoring the 2nd Amendment, do you really think that they'll have a problem completely disregarding the 4th or 5th?
 
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